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New Yomi Tier List after The Big Patch 9/1+

The PantyChrist

Rest in Pantiez
quick question, why did you even say this?

you are repeating what i said...
idid one 14 saying its possible which is true, i went on to say i could not do this every time. my Average reaction time in frames was 19 1/2 frames. then my second test showed an average of 23 frames on reaction.

never said i could react to it every time. but one thing is not being considered here... there are 2 types of things we use in fighting games, prediction and reaction. there are many situations where your opponent can only do one of 2 things in a given situation!

this is when you can add prediction to safly block a 15 frame move.

and to note: johnny's movelist is not that diverse that we could not guess whether he will D4/113/F3 or F24

he doesn't have that many options when he is spaced away from you, and when you have him locked in the corner.

And yes you are right, i wanst sure what mileenas F3 was but i guess its 33frames... i knew it was super punishable
you are fuzzying the definition of reaction
 

Dizzy

False Information Police Officer
Premium Supporter
NetherRealm Studios
Johnny Cage's launching mixups are susceptible to fuzzy guarding some, while reacting to others. F2 can be blocked consistently in mixup situations with proper matchup experience.

However, a 15 frame move cannot be blocked on reaction. If you can't accept that, a reasonable discussion cannot be had regarding a characters mixups because you are speaking of using something beyond the capability of a human.
 

MadeOfMetal

Kenshi Srubtastic,Cyrax, Special Forces Mains
Johnny Cage's launching mixups are susceptible to fuzzy guarding some, while reacting to others. F2 can be blocked consistently in mixup situations with proper matchup experience.

However, a 15 frame move cannot be blocked on reaction. If you can't accept that, a reasonable discussion cannot be had regarding a characters mixups because you are speaking of using something beyond the capability of a human.
agreed through proper matchup experience muscle memory can build better blocking habits using prediction
 

Bomborge

Aspiring scrub
quick question, why did you even say this?

you are repeating what i said...
idid one 14 saying its possible which is true, i went on to say i could not do this every time. my Average reaction time in frames was 19 1/2 frames. then my second test showed an average of 23 frames on reaction.

never said i could react to it every time. but one thing is not being considered here... there are 2 types of things we use in fighting games, prediction and reaction. there are many situations where your opponent can only do one of 2 things in a given situation!

this is when you can add prediction to safly block a 15 frame move.

and to note: johnny's movelist is not that diverse that we could not guess whether he will D4/113/F3 or F24

he doesn't have that many options when he is spaced away from you, and when you have him locked in the corner.

And yes you are right, i wanst sure what mileenas F3 was but i guess its 33frames... i knew it was super punishable
You said the exact opposite of what I said. you said mileenas f3 was 17 frames and that johnnys f2 was reactable. I hate to tell you this but you act like you know far more about the game than you actually do.
 

SonicFox5000

The Best.
I think there is no C tier character and that Jason is B tier. Because Jason has no winning matchups doesnt mean he doesnt go even with people! IMO he 5-5s hella people and wins against ermac and Kotal Kahn! Hes a solid character but there are just better characters. Its hard to believe that hes the worst.
I dont believe there is a worst character
 

Yoaks

A spaceman
You said the exact opposite of what I said. you said mileenas f3 was 17 frames and that johnnys f2 was reactable. I hate to tell you this but you act like you know far more about the game than you actually do.
Who are you replying too?
 

REO

Undead
I think there is no C tier character and that Jason is B tier. Because Jason has no winning matchups doesnt mean he doesnt go even with people! IMO he 5-5s hella people and wins against ermac and Kotal Kahn! Hes a solid character but there are just better characters. Its hard to believe that hes the worst.
I dont believe there is a worst character
Bruh.

http://testyourmight.com/threads/jason-voorhees-relentess-match-up-chart.56048/

Jason was B tier last patch but ever since he got nerfed and other characters got steroid buffed, he's become worse overall. He lost some of his 5-5s like vs Goro, Jacqui, Reptile, etc. etc. And now he seriously has more losing match ups than even and he's the only character in the game that doesn't counter pick another character. He needs to get his low profiling fixed, wonky hitboxes in Slasher improved, or just straight up buffed to compensate.
 
Johnny Cage's launching mixups are susceptible to fuzzy guarding some, while reacting to others. F2 can be blocked consistently in mixup situations with proper matchup experience.

However, a 15 frame move cannot be blocked on reaction. If you can't accept that, a reasonable discussion cannot be had regarding a characters mixups because you are speaking of using something beyond the capability of a human.
So do you agree JC is A+
 

MadeOfMetal

Kenshi Srubtastic,Cyrax, Special Forces Mains
You said the exact opposite of what I said. you said mileenas f3 was 17 frames and that johnnys f2 was reactable. I hate to tell you this but you act like you know far more about the game than you actually do.
lol ok

id take it from your vast knowledge of me, from having playing zero games with me on MK1/2/3/U3/MK9/MKX

ill just leave it at that.
we should part ways before this thread gets derailed further
 

Undergroundepict

I am like the blue rose
Cannot like this post enough, Foxy earlier mentioned the same thing.

Jax isn't about staggering pressure like Tanya and Kung Lao where it is so scary to hit a button. He aims to use his slightly plus frames to either poke your counterpoke and get high frame ADV, (D1 and D3 are 15 and 16 respectively of the top of my head) and when he gets you scared to poke open you up with his overhead low. He can blow up most armor with 123 however all the options from this string put him in negative for his read. (Not downplaying the use of the nuts delay of the 3 in this string to hit people with Gotcha, RocketRC and in Wrestler the fantastic tick throw which works great against character with no armor)

For those who only know Jax in HW you'll understand how the rocket confirms are great for hitting conversions in the neutral (Used to be much more valuable when his combos were dumb) Against slower reversals he is also able to make use of a 10 frame mid to frame trap and cancel to make it safe/bait reversals.

But what if my opponent doesn't have any real armor I need to worry about? Let's take D'vorah for example the worst we eat is EX Ovipositor strike. Suddenly Wreslter has a huge advantage because every time this character counterpokes you he can then tick throw you when you do read him. He does 11 you respect his option of 123 and block and get thrown for 14% and this character is still all over you.

Let's say you have no good way of claiming space or have a weaker ground game that Jax, you might have good aerial specials/normals? Well now anywhere on the screen you have to deal with Pumped Up's IAGP, Plasma (Delayed or not) better Armored AA and a reversal that does 37% midscreen and 42% or 44% I think if you manage to reach the corner. So you've taken Jax's whole neutral and allowing him to zone and play defensive against characters that have trouble making space.

Went off on one a bit but Jax requires a lot of work and I'm still finding ways to best play each MU as each variation offers him the advantages you just need to flesh them out enough to see it.

TLDR: People sleep on Jax because he needs quite a bit of work to learn.

You hit the nail on the head with regards to Jax's pressure. Nothing ridiculous about it, it can be neutral ducked and there are gaps to exploit for those who know the matchup (I believe this is perfectly fair, by the way), but he has a lot of very practical strings that are very slightly plus on block. You really have to think and maintain an awareness of your opponent and his or her capabilities in order to keep pressure going consistently, but if you put the thought in and learn the matchups, the pressure is there. You just have to mix things up and play creatively, you can't go braindead and mash the same inputs out over and expect to have success the way you can with some other characters.

I actually think one factor causing people to shy away from playing him is because being +1 or +2 on block doesn't mean a damn thing online. When most people pick up a new character, they play it online before going to locals, and I think people internalize the difficulties maintaining any sort of pressure against good opponents online as their own failing, rather than the fault of the game, particularly if they have no problems applying pressure with other pressure heavy characters online. Somehow, with online, +1 or +2 moves become punishable, while -3 and -4 moves jail. It makes no sense to me.

I suppose part of the issue with his midscreens as well was not so much that it was difficult (it is one of the tougher BnB's in the game, but other characters have tough BnB's as well and people play them just fine), as much as that it was inconsistent, prior to the patch/hotfix (which was a godsend). My hand/eye coordination is far from S Tier, so if I can get his midscreens down consistently, anybody can.

I think people just have certain sub/semi-conscious expectations of how a character should play, and when that character doesn't meet those expectations, people assume that it simply isn't the character for them, rather than adapting to the situation at hand.

Another factor is the lack of high level representation he receives. Tyrant and Jupiter are the only big name guys repping Jax as a main right now, and Tyrant hasn't been placing as well as one would expect, and I believe Jupiter does not show up to a lot of tournaments (?) (although when he does show, he finishes top 8). As such, the character isn't as visible as others, and people don't have a consistent source or reference for higher level tech. Tyrant is the last guy you want to copy, as I think it is unrealistic for most people to expect themselves to be able to execute at his level, which is fucking unreal (super human even) even among professional players. You don't need to be able to execute at his level to win (most of the guys winning majors don't), although the expectation that you do can be discouraging.

Anyways, moving on to Jax tech, I gave up on instant-air ground pounds, as air ground pound is an abysmal -44 on whiff. Meanwhile, regular ground pound is a very good -21, and it low profiles most of the games mid projectiles, including Reptile's Forceballs and HW Jax's rockets. Air GP doesn't low profile at all. I basically only use Air GP now to remind people it exists, in the hope of baiting them into attempting a punish every time I jump backwards. I seriously think Air GP needs a buff, -44 is ridiculous for a move that does 6% and leads to nothing.

The regular ground pound is still godlike, however, particularly in conjunction with his energy wave. If I am just beginning some sets or a match against a top level player, they start off the game ducking my energy waves and jumping my ground pounds fairly consistently (as they both have relatively slow, reactable startups), but I notice that over time the mixup begins to wear down on them, and they begin messing up and getting caught more and more often, until eventually I can zone them out for a round or two. Obviously, I'm talking about players who are much, much better than me, so I still get bodied, but the ability to steal a round or even the occasional game based off of it against some of the better players on the scene hints towards its viability.

Plus, I have begun to notice that everybody I play begins to think their controller is messed up, and I have attributed it to the + frames from my energy waves (this is offline only, by the way. Energy Wave does not seem to jail consistently online). A belief that one's controller is not accepting inputs properly leads to clenching and other bad habits, which leads to more difficulties inputting. It was a pretty nice Eureka moment when I realized that that was the case.

So, yeah, there are a lot of reasons to play Jax. Perhaps the best uppercut in the game, 3 viable variations, decent and unique zoning potential with Pumped Up, lots of high-execution riff-raff in HW, and a viable grappler with lots of tic throw options in Wrestler, just to name a few of his perks. He has something to suit almost all types of players.
 

Deyrax

Skarlet who ?
Are people that retarded to use that Millia blocker as a proof of their reaction time ? Yeah, because every match consists of you crouching for 99 seconds and waiting for an overhead
 

Titans1373

Pew pew pew quitality
This just depresses me as a Jason player. Of all the people to get a nerf, you give it to Jason lol.
Either way good list, I think it's the best one to date.
 

GAV

Resolution through knowledge and resolve.
Sonya bottom 10 with nerfed Raiden my ass. She's either A+ or A tier, nothing less than that.
When I saw her there, my reaction wasn't to disparage - but to find out why.

You have a panel of professional players, some of the world's best, putting together a tier list. Its worth considering.

I will ask the best Sonya players I know before coming to a conclusion, but I would be a fool to not consider the reasoning behind a tier list put together by YOMI.
 

JJV Phoenix

I'm not Vak goddamnit
No you wouldn't. There's conspiracies and hidden agendas behind everything on here which shouldn't matter but does because it always affects the games balance in some way. The people that are credible sources of information don't actually post that much
IllumiYOMI konfirmed
Konspiracies abound
Hide your children or their damage scaling may get nerfed
 

1man3letters

Alpha Tarkatan - Moderator
Moderator
Are people that retarded to use that Millia blocker as a proof of their reaction time ? Yeah, because every match consists of you crouching for 99 seconds and waiting for an overhead
its a test for reactions in controlled conditions to prove what people can/cant react to even with the best case scenario.
ie: if you cant do it in that game, you have little hope of doing same thing in a real game scenario
 

errormacro7

Official Sonya simp
When I saw her there, my reaction wasn't to disparage - but to find out why.

You have a panel of professional players, some of the world's best, putting together a tier list. Its worth considering.

I will ask the best Sonya players I know before coming to a conclusion, but I would be a fool to not consider the reasoning behind a tier list put together by YOMI.
LOL Did you see the post I quoted before saying this? I wasn't talking about the Yomi tier list, that was another list created by another guy that put Sonya in bottom 10.

A friend of mine who also plays the character asked @YOMI MITYEAP why he thinks she is A tier rather than A+. He said she could possibly be A+, but after discussing with his teammates he concluded that A tier was sufficient. And before that tier list was edited, we had 9 characters from S to A+ tier and Sonya was right below so the 10th spot could very well be hers. If you look at that other tier list I was talking about the same way, she would be bottom 10.

Clear?