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General/Other - Takeda The Problem With Takeda.

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
Like yeah the character has problems that should be looked at but what are viable solutions that don't tip him into being a complete monster who dominates the midrange & people never get in?
As far as I can see (and it's still far too early to know for sure), two things:
1) A decently fast poke. For everyone saying "he shouldn't be good up close" he still won't. You're not going to beat someone with pokes alone. All it does is allow him to at least play the game until he can (hopefully) get to a better place.

2) Either a safe EX teleport, or one that's still unsafe but has armor on startup. This would give opponents something they have to respect, rather than something they just mash out of (often by accident) or just wait for and full combo punish even though you spent the bar.

Keep in mind this is just a preliminary reaction -- but there are lots of possible approaches and it'd take some testing to see what ends up being best.

The reason Takeda doesn't dominate the midrange is that jumping will put you clear of both b21 and b3; and faster ranged footsie tools hit him before b2 or b3 even come out. So you only have to half-respect them, because it's fairly easy for most characters to get in.

In any case, balancing a game isn't easy and I don't envy the job of anyone who has to do it.
 

Phosferrax

Original Liu Kang cop.
If b21 didn't have a frame gap it would be silly though. He dominates so much of the screen that in order to balance it there needs to be a weaknes in b21. This is why Lasher is being slept on.

How many characters have armour that can properly blow up b2 mid kunai mix ups? Not Subzero or Reptile slides, proper blow up. KL, Jax, Liu Kang (DF, debateable), KJ, Kotal (WG), Milenna, Kenshi
Anyone else?
 

LucaTheRipper

RULES OF NATURE!
Agree 100% with you, Takeda is my main in MK X too, in some matchups are really hard to play against, play online with him is suicide, in my opinion Takeda, Kitana and Kenshi needs serious buffs on the move's and special's startups and recuperation, Sonya needs a buff at her military stance moves tho.
 
If b21 didn't have a frame gap it would be silly though. He dominates so much of the screen that in order to balance it there needs to be a weaknes in b21. This is why Lasher is being slept on.

How many characters have armour that can properly blow up b2 mid kunai mix ups? Not Subzero or Reptile slides, proper blow up. KL, Jax, Liu Kang (DF, debateable), KJ, Kotal (WG), Milenna, Kenshi
Anyone else?
wut...those slides are proper blow ups....they knock him down and closed the space between them. Then they get to start their game.

Just b/c it doesn't combo after does not mean its not a proper blow up. Their objective was to close the space and they successfully did so.
 

DarkOwl

New to fighting games
Well even though I don't have MKX, watching and reading this makes me not wanna pick up Takeda anymore....:eek::(
 
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gpmoney

CORN | gpmoney. Saltier than a bag of chips.
Im seeing too many people who do not play takeda seeing this and not realizing that this is not a complaint thread. Its a thread showing this variation has nothing to be afraid of. Anyone who thinks the character is fine dose not play the character or is getting blown up by him and are salty so don't want a buff cause they suck. If you are not 3/4ths of the screen his so called best tool b21 will miss if you jump fwrd and you get a punish or presure. Don't matter if he has "long" normals. If they are extra negative on block or hit then just be smart and block. Shirai variation has so many gaps and bad frame advantage it makes him almost unplayable. The reason this is a problem is because what is the point of playing the character? He is so slow and negative that you almost can't play him because everytime he hits a button he is killing himself. Like I said if yu are losing to him you are bad or don't know the MU. If you think he is fine you are bad or don't know enough about fighting games to know why he is bad and actually dose need a few fixes but nothing huge.
 
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gpmoney

CORN | gpmoney. Saltier than a bag of chips.
wut...those slides are proper blow ups....they knock him down and closed the space between them. Then they get to start their game.

Just b/c it doesn't combo after does not mean its not a proper blow up. Their objective was to close the space and they successfully did so.
I thought I was the only one to see that lmao
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
A-fucking-men. @Zyphox
Being a whiff punisher still implies that you have something that's fast enough to whiff punish things before they recover. Or maybe that you have the mobility (like Raiden's tele) to bait whiffs on people's quicker moves.

Unlike MK9, most characters in this game have a fast, far advancing footsie tool (like MK9 cage's f3, Kitanta's F21, Or Sinestro's b12, which were all considered to be uniquiely good), so it's far more common to be blocking or being hit by something than to punish whiffs regularly.
 

SEV

Noob
i get you but lets focus on what you said at first, if they don't have meter, dude you start with one bar in this game and meter building especially on takeda is easy. i can accept the weakness up close, if they holes in his mid range game were covered up, i have no problem with that anymore, but the fact that its super easy to get through means he doesn't even have a strength mid screen and farther because its unsafe.
Can't speak to how fast other characters can build meter against him but as Raiden I need to be on you to build, and if I don't have meter for whatever reason it can be annoying.

Just took Takeda to the lab for a bit and could have possibly found a solution to the gaps in his mid range game.

Testing against Lao's Cyclone almost all whip moves except maybe one(don't remember, 21 I think unless done at absolutely max range) can be made safe with teleport cancels which means they have to armor with an advancing move to punish if you're spacing properly.

Then I tested the string against Reptile's Slippery Slide. It blew up all of his teleport cancels; however, if you just delay your teleport slightly for the reversal timing then he reversals toward your old position and you teleport to the other side. In this case, Reptile's slide puts him full screen and he recovers quick enough so you can't do anything about it.

When I tested this against Raiden(my main) for my regular reversal options to blow up Kunai, if I Electric Fly and you delay teleport: I waste a bar of meter, you get a free Far Kunai punish for some free damage, and you're full screen with a favorable neutral for Takeda. If I Shocker and you delay teleport, you're directly behind me, and recover in time for a full combo punish.

From there you create a mind game off of teleport: are you going to cancel or delay? Does your opponent want to spend a bar of meter preemptively and possibly get full combo punished for it, or is he going to wait and see if you cancel? Hell, I only tested against a 6 frame reversal, against slower ones YOU might be able to punish on reaction to his reversal for all we know. And if he respects your options, you might even be able to cancel into more pressure first since he is playing a reaction game.

Then off of that mind game you can start Kunai'ing more because your opponent could be watching for your teleport shenanigans.

Probably tricky to implement, but I just gave you your options that covers your midscreen holes. Now go find punishes for the rest of the cast, and make a thread for the rest of your fellow Takeda's. I don't feel developing tech in depth for a character I don't play.

Edit: You CAN react to reversals(if you want you can even watch where "REVERSAL" pops up on the screen). Only debate would be whether or not Close Kunai is within the realm of reaction(11 frame SU).

In the lab I can just barely react to the Close Kunai animation and input my reversal to punish. But I'm testing this alone and can't really set it to do either Close Kunai or teleport so hard to say if I am just reacting to Takeda doing any animation or if I could do it for Kunai only ten out of ten times without doing it for teleport. Even then in a tournament setting it seems like only the very best would be able to react, as they're is just barely enough time it seems.

But I'm glad tech isn't being buried beneath the mountain of salt like I thought it would, and I hope the Takeda players in here that want to actually improve their meta, versus those who are just here to complain, are seeing it and taking it to the lab themselves.
 
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Immortal Kombat

almost moderate success
I think it's clear that takeda suffers against people with forward advancing armor and strong rushdown characters.
Having said that he can straight up body characters that dont. I've been saying for a long time now that takeda mains need to have a back up character that can handle up close pressure. I jokingly say all the time that Goro is takedas 4th variation lol. I agree that takeda has way too many holes to beat smart accomplished tournament players that know the match up. I'm still gonna hang on to him in case he receives buffs, but I've moved on.
I would suggest any other Takeda mains that feel this same frustration do the same. The games early and it's not worth your time to be frustrated. Use him for his good match ups, and learn another character that you can have fun playing.
 

Phosferrax

Original Liu Kang cop.
wut...those slides are proper blow ups....they knock him down and closed the space between them. Then they get to start their game.

Just b/c it doesn't combo after does not mean its not a proper blow up. Their objective was to close the space and they successfully did so.
Techable knockdowns and less than 15% damage for a bar aren't blow ups. One b21 kunai on hit equalizes that. If Sub gets you into the corner then its kind of serious, but midscreen, who cares? It's fair that Takeda deals with a small % of damage and a shift of momentum for his fucking huge range normals that confirm into at least 30%. Getting combo'd is a blow up, not a frigging knockdown.
 

xInfra Deadx

Gimmick stolen by Jordan Peele
To be fair, Takeda is not that slow. At least he faster then Goro, Feera/Torr, and Shinnok. Don't get me wrong Takeda can get punish almost everything in the game but I don't think he bad as a character to be honest. @Zyphox you are a good Takeda player arguably the best Takeda in the world but I just can't see Takeda be one of the worst characters in the games however. You should try out his other two variations.
Slow my ass.
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
Can't speak to how fast other characters can build meter against him but as Raiden I need to be on you to build, and if I don't have meter for whatever reason it can be annoying.

Just took Takeda to the lab for a bit and could have possibly found a solution to the gaps in his mid range game.

Testing against Lao's Cyclone almost all whip moves except maybe one(don't remember, 21 I think unless done at absolutely max range) can be made safe with teleport cancels which means they have to armor with an advancing move to punish if you're spacing properly.

Then I tested the string against Reptile's Slippery Slide. It blew up all of his teleport cancels; however, if you just delay your teleport slightly for the reversal timing then he reversals toward your old position and you teleport to the other side. In this case, Reptile's slide puts him full screen and he recovers quick enough so you can't do anything about it.

When I tested this against Raiden(my main) for my regular reversal options to blow up Kunai, if I Electric Fly and you delay teleport: I waste a bar of meter, you get a free Far Kunai punish for some free damage, and you're full screen with a favorable neutral for Takeda. If I Shocker and you delay teleport, you're directly behind me, and recover in time for a full combo punish.

From there you create a mind game off of teleport: are you going to cancel or delay? Does your opponent want to spend a bar of meter preemptively and possibly get full combo punished for it, or is he going to wait and see if you cancel? Hell, I only tested against a 6 frame reversal, against slower ones YOU might be able to punish on reaction to his reversal for all we know. And if he respects your options, you might even be able to cancel into more pressure first since he is playing a reaction game.

Then off of that mind game you can start Kunai'ing more because your opponent could be watching for your teleport shenanigans.

Probably tricky to implement, but I just gave you your options that covers your midscreen holes. Now go find punishes for the rest of the cast, and make a thread for the rest of your fellow Takeda's. I don't feel developing tech in depth for a character I don't play.
The problem is, this is exactly what you don't want. The point of the Kunai is to force them to respect, block and hold their ground.

If you tele cancel after b21 on block, a short run puts them in your face, and nothing you have will come out in time to beat their next attack. So you're forced to block, and they're now directly in front of you with faster normals and 50/50s, which is generally the last place Takeda wants to be.

Even if they just run into block in case you let it fly, at best they're now at close range, and at worst you're eating a full punish for the tele.
 
Techable knockdowns and less than 15% damage for a bar aren't blow ups. One b21 kunai on hit equalizes that. If Sub gets you into the corner then its kind of serious, but midscreen, who cares? It's fair that Takeda deals with a small % of damage and a shift of momentum for his fucking huge range normals that confirm into at least 30%. Getting combo'd is a blow up, not a frigging knockdown.
huge range normals that everyone should be blocking. From 3/4's the screen its only overhead and if you can't react to blocking kunai then you legit really suck then. Now we're just going back to what other takeda's mains are saying that if you are getting hit by b21 kunai or b2 kunai...you are garbage.
 

gpmoney

CORN | gpmoney. Saltier than a bag of chips.
You can just fwrd jump and avoid the guess of teleport cancel. You'll end up jumping the kunai(unless max distance), jumping the spear, jumping the 3rd hit of b212 and his next move will miss because of his slow normals. Plus teleport cancel takes half your stamina. All the teleport cancel will do is let them get in on you and takeda is fucked. Takeda also cant hit a button on dash right after tele cancel.
 

SEV

Noob
The problem is, this is exactly what you don't want. The point of the Kunai is to force them to respect, block and hold their ground.

If you tele cancel after b21 on block, a short run puts them in your face, and nothing you have will come out in time to beat their next attack. So you're forced to block, and they're now directly in front of you with faster normals and 50/59s, which is generally the last place Takeda wants to be.
But this is exactly what he said that he wanted, was it not? He said he was upset that there were holes in his midscreen game off his buttons, and if those holes didn't exist, he'd be cool with the lack of button speed up close.

I never said that this was going to be giving you a great advantage or anything. It's simply filling the holes by giving you an additional, viable alternative to Kunai to make your opponent want to respect your options off of your whip strings. Having them have to run in and giving you at least one more chance of offense during his approach is better than being punished for full combo isn't it?

I completely agree that having slow buttons is an issue once they get in, but the character seems to be designed so that if you want to play a decent up game you're supposed to be the Ronin variation.
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
But this is exactly what he said that he wanted, was it not? He said he was upset that there were holes in his midscreen game off his buttons, and if those holes didn't exist, he'd be cool with the lack of button speed up close.

I never said that this was going to be giving you a great advantage or anything. It's simply filling the holes by giving you an additional, viable alternative to Kunai to make your opponent want to respect your options off of your whip strings. Having them have to run in and giving you at least one more chance of offense during his approach is better than being punished for full combo isn't it?

I completely agree that having slow buttons is an issue once they get in, but the character seems to be designed so that if you want to play a decent up game you're supposed to be the Ronin variation.
The problem isn't necessarily that you're not as viable in close -- it's that you can't keep people out, so you're forced to play in close much of the time. I think that's what Zyphox was alluding to.

If you can keep people from getting in, or at least make it difficult (think Sinestro) then you'd expect that once they finally get there, it'd be more advantageous for them (even though this isn't always the case, even with zoners). But if you can't make it difficult for them to get in, then it's extremely hard to actually keep the match in a place where you're at advantage.
 
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gpmoney

CORN | gpmoney. Saltier than a bag of chips.
The obvious reason we are not talking about the ronnin or lasher variation is because there is a problem with shirai. That problem being he has soo many gaps and ways to be blown up along with all his shit normals and negative frames he can not be played properly. We are not saying buff takeda cause we cant win we are saying buff him because he can not be played properly.

If you are playing a character who is made to space out or zone control that means they should have a move set that agrees with that playstyle. This is fighting games basics.

Yes characters should have flaws and ways to be beaten but when you are takeda in shirai you literally have nothing but ways to lose.

IF YOU ARE LOSING YOU EITHER DO NOT KNOW THE MU OR YOU ARE A SCRUB WHO IS SALTY BECAUSE THEY GOT SPACED OUT BY 20-30 FRAME NORMALS THAT ARE -20-37 ON BLOCK!
 
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