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Sep. 29th 2020 Presidential Debate Discussion

Anarchist_Gib

Shao Kahn main, please your send prayers!
hell he was endorsed by David Duke in 2016
Hillary was endorsed by Will Quigg.

There was also his both sides statements on the Charlottesville rally
""So you know what, it’s fine. You’re changing history. You’re changing culture. And you had people -- and I’m not talking about the neo-Nazis and the white nationalists -- because they should be condemned totally. But you had many people in that group other than neo-Nazis and white nationalists. Okay? And the press has treated them absolutely unfairly. "

These are simply not good points to raise against Trump, pick one of the numerous others instead.
 

Wigy

There it is...
trump has a long history of not denouncing white supremacist's. hell he was endorsed by David Duke in 2016 and when asked to denounce it he just said he didn't know David Duke. There was also his both sides statements on the Charlottesville rally
i mean ive seen him denounce white supremacy before.

the media calls everyone and everything a white supremacist for absolutely no reason in america so probably wouldnt be saying much in his position past setting my own view that its wrong.
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
""So you know what, it’s fine. You’re changing history. You’re changing culture. And you had people -- and I’m not talking about the neo-Nazis and the white nationalists -- because they should be condemned totally. But you had many people in that group other than neo-Nazis and white nationalists. Okay? And the press has treated them absolutely unfairly. "

These are simply not good points to raise against Trump, pick one of the numerous others instead.
You left out the entire rest of the quote:
"Excuse me, they didn't put themselves down as neo-Nazis, and you had some very bad people in that group. But you also had people that were very fine people on both sides. You had people in that group – excuse me, excuse me. I saw the same pictures as you did. You had people in that group that were there to protest the taking down, of to them, a very, very important statue and the renaming of a park from Robert E. Lee to another name. "

And his numerous refusals in that press conference to denounce white supremacy, and his support of people like David Duke. And his comparison of Robert E. Lee to Goerge Washington -- what sort of people do you think defend Robert E. Lee?

They asked him point-blank if he'd denounce white supremacy at the debate, his debate team even had a prepared answer for him, and he avoided it at all costs. His actions speak for themselves.
 

Anarchist_Gib

Shao Kahn main, please your send prayers!
You left out the entire rest of the quote:
"Excuse me, they didn't put themselves down as neo-Nazis, and you had some very bad people in that group. But you also had people that were very fine people on both sides. You had people in that group – excuse me, excuse me. I saw the same pictures as you did. You had people in that group that were there to protest the taking down, of to them, a very, very important statue and the renaming of a park from Robert E. Lee to another name. "

And his numerous refusals in that press conference to denounce white supremacy, and his support of people like David Duke. What sort of people do you think defend Robert E. Lee?
That's the preceding portion that Bacon was referring to, I didn't leave anything out by adding the proceeding portion where he explicitly makes statements contrary to how the event in question is represented. I'm not saying there aren't others that may be valid, but this one simply is not.

I lived several years in St. Charles, Mo, throughout which are several statues of various historical figures with a wide range of questionable actions or straight up brutality. But they nonetheless represent the geographical history, and to some that alone is a valid reason to keep them standing. One doesn't need to support the ideals of the Confederation, slavery, or any other abhorrent ideas to want to keep those statues standing. I myself don't have such inclinations, and would leave it for localities to vote either way, but I understand the argument for preservation and don't ascribe maligned intent to those who express it.
 

Baconlord

Proud follower of the church of Cetrion
Hillary was endorsed by Will Quigg.



""So you know what, it’s fine. You’re changing history. You’re changing culture. And you had people -- and I’m not talking about the neo-Nazis and the white nationalists -- because they should be condemned totally. But you had many people in that group other than neo-Nazis and white nationalists. Okay? And the press has treated them absolutely unfairly. "

These are simply not good points to raise against Trump, pick one of the numerous others instead.
2 things. 1. His response came days after the rallies and only because he was facing pressure from his own party to condemn them. 2. Those rallies were specifically organised by white supremacists and neo Nazis. There were no fine people at those rallies. Pretending otherwise does nothing but cover for the people at the rally.
i mean ive seen him denounce white supremacy before.

the media calls everyone and everything a white supremacist for absolutely no reason in america so probably wouldnt be saying much in his position past setting my own view that its wrong.
The proud boys are a white supremacist group. There's no debate about this. Trump not condemning them is fucking horrifying
 

Anarchist_Gib

Shao Kahn main, please your send prayers!
1. His response came days after the rallies and only because he was facing pressure from his own party to condemn them.
2. Those rallies were specifically organised by white supremacists and neo Nazis. There were no fine people at those rallies.
  1. The quote from the event in question, a couple seconds after the both sides statement.
  2. It is ludicrous to insinuate that NOBODY at the event had non-racist intent for wanting to preserve the statue.
 

Marlow

Premium Supporter
Premium Supporter
The main issue is that while Trump has denounced racism and the Alt Right, he normally does so in a very soft way, and quickly pivots into a what-about-ism. People are frustrated because it allows him to tacitly keep the support of these alt-right groups.

There's certainly other numerous issues, but given the rise of white nationalist groups during his tenure in office, the increased issues with race relations, and then him completely flubbing a softball question like condemning white nationalists, I understand why it turned into a main issue.
 

Anarchist_Gib

Shao Kahn main, please your send prayers!
The tenor of my pointing Will Quigg out wasn't to represent the man as an honest agent, it was to point out that the endorsements of fringe elements are a bad talking point. One can point out any number of questionable individuals who endorse either side in any given election.
 

Wigy

There it is...

trumps numerous denouncement of white supremacy. Thats the thing with the left, they just make demand and demand and its never enough.

2 things. 1. His response came days after the rallies and only because he was facing pressure from his own party to condemn them. 2. Those rallies were specifically organised by white supremacists and neo Nazis. There were no fine people at those rallies. Pretending otherwise does nothing but cover for the people at the rally.
The proud boys are a white supremacist group. There's no debate about this. Trump not condemning them is fucking horrifying
is that why they’re lead by a cuban guy? LOL
From my understanding it started off as a joke, then it turned into basically fighting back against the self hating anti patriotic shit, which im sure attracts racist people. You know what else is also cram packed full of racists, antifa and BLM rhetoric. Why doesnt biden have to denounce the murder racism and destruction on that side?

hard to know if a groups actually racist cause the media just calls everyone racist.

just about every person who has some called of altercation with a blm protester just magically has completely unsubstantiated ‘links to white supremacy’ its laughable
 

Baconlord

Proud follower of the church of Cetrion
  1. The quote from the event in question, a couple seconds after the both sides statement.
  2. It is ludicrous to insinuate that NOBODY at the event had non-racist intent for wanting to preserve the statue.
the unite the right rally was specifically organized by alt right neo nazis for alt right neo nazis. it was unambiguously branded as an alt right event and was not shy about marketing appearances from people like Richard Spencer. if you attended that rally it was because either you are a white supremacist or white supremacism isn't a deal breaker for you and personally I don't see a difference between those 2. also let's just say hypothetically there were people in the rallies while they were chanting blood and soil that just honest to god didn't know what that meant. well they're still there to protect a statue dedicated to man who fought a war to own black people. I wouldn't consider those people to be fine people
 

Vslayer

Juiced Moose On The Loose
Lead Moderator
  1. It is ludicrous to insinuate that NOBODY at the event had non-racist intent for wanting to preserve the statue.
It's ridiculous to think a person would try to preserve a stupid statue that's idolizing some dead dude. History is in the books, in memories, in museums, don't think we need more reminders of what happened especially in a way that glorifies wars fought to enslave human beings, and especially when it sends a message of supremacy and not peace and unity.
 

Baconlord

Proud follower of the church of Cetrion

trumps numerous denouncement of white supremacy. Thats the thing with the left, they just make demand and demand and its never enough.



is that why they’re lead by a cuban guy? LOL
From my understanding it started off as a joke, then it turned into basically fighting back against the self hating anti patriotic shit, which im sure attracts racist people. You know what else is also cram packed full of racists, antifa and BLM rhetoric. Why doesnt biden have to denounce the murder racism and destruction on that side?

hard to know if a groups actually racist cause the media just calls everyone racist.

just about every person who has some called of altercation with a blm protester just magically has completely unsubstantiated ‘links to white supremacy’ its laughable
if your rally is just a joke then maybe don't advertise the appearance of a literal fucking neo nazi in richard spencer. also cool, trump managed to do a few interviews were he condemned neo nazis. good for him. Still doesn't change the fact he basically just endorsed the proud boys at a debate. this isn't something you get a pass on because he condemns them most of the time. you either always condemn white supremacy or you endorse it.
 

Anarchist_Gib

Shao Kahn main, please your send prayers!
white supremacism isn't a deal breaker for you and personally I don't see a difference between those
I've attended many pro 2nd amendment rallies in my time. There were plenty of groups I'd identify as hate or fear-mongering organizations, some of whom even had speaking roles due to their financial backing of the event. But I didn't go to support them, I went to go support and advocate for the legislation that was hand for my area that I believed in yet had significant contention from the opposite political spectrum. In the same vein, I know from testimony that there were people on the other side's event who just wanted what they perceive as reasonable gun laws having to deal with the presence of some advocating for radical complete disarmament. Things and people are nuanced.

also let's just say hypothetically there were people in the rallies while they were chanting blood and soil that just honest to god didn't know what that meant. well they're still there to protect a statue dedicated to man who fought a war to own black people. I wouldn't consider those people to be fine people
This bad faith approach to people has the effect of polarizing your opposition even further (which isn't to say it doesn't happen the reverse direction either). People can have a belief (whether right or wrong) in the validity behind preservationist arguments without a hint of malintent, but you lump them right in with legitimate examples of malintent.

It's ridiculous to think a person would try to preserve a stupid statue that's idolizing some dead dude. History is in the books, in memories, in museums, don't think we need more reminders of what happened especially in a way that glorifies wars fought to enslave human beings, and especially when it sends a message of supremacy and not peace and unity.
I don't think anyone making the historical preservationist argument I'm referring to does so under the reasoning of glorification, quite the opposite in fact. I also think the distinction you mention of museums is a valid one, and instances where these statues are to be preserved but moved somewhere where they can be showcased in such a setting would get my support.
 

Obly

Ambiguous world creator
These are simply not good points to raise against Trump, pick one of the numerous others instead.
trumps numerous denouncement of white supremacy. Thats the thing with the left, they just make demand and demand and its never enough.
You're free of course to support whomever you like, for whatever reasons you have for that. But to pretend that Trump isn't--at the very least (and being very generous)--openly sympathetic to white supremacist groups is just straight up intellectually dishonest.

Whether it bothers you is a matter of your own personal moral code (and that's your business), but you can't be taken seriously if you're just going to deny it and use typical propaganda nonsense tactics ("oh, the media says everyone is racist, so there's no way to know who's really a racist"... "Well the left does it too, so you can't condemn the right for it").

In addition to everything @Baconlord and others have said, let's not forget that in the middle of a raging pandemic racking up hundreds of lives lost every day, civil unrest in cities across the country, a tanking economy, and everything else, Trump was touting an obsession not just with Confederate statues but with a plan (that was bipartisan and done with the Army's support and consent) to rename Army bases named after Confederate generals. He went so far as to threaten to veto the military's funding bill over it--so he was literally ready to threaten U.S. national security in order to protect token symbols of a racist past.

Words are cheap. Who cares how many interviews you can find where Trump gave some mealy-mouthed statement 'denouncing' white supremacists. Actions are what matter.
 

Anarchist_Gib

Shao Kahn main, please your send prayers!
Nah, what's ludicrous is fighting to 'preserve' a public statue of a traitor to our nation who fought to split us apart and ensure that slavery would be the status quo for the foreseeable future.
I mentioned the statues from my previous residency; some of Borromeo whose anti-reformation legacy was oppressive to protestants, and others of figures who had a hand in driving indigenous populations out of the region. Nobody I've never met in all my years there ever defended those statues on the basis of racial supremacy or righteous motive, it was always in the vein of awareness and geographical history(St. Charles is MO's 3rd oldest city, founded in 1769). To want to preserve pieces of history is NOT to necessarily endorse them or the ideals they stand for.
 

Anarchist_Gib

Shao Kahn main, please your send prayers!
But to pretend that Trump isn't--at the very least (and being very generous)--openly sympathetic to white supremacist groups is just straight up intellectually dishonest.
If you intended this to apply to me, then this is where you point out when and where I insinuated the above notion. I challenged the specific example brought up, as I don't think it's a good one. This does not translate to an endorsement of any particular rhetoric or group.
 

Wigy

There it is...
You're free of course to support whomever you like, for whatever reasons you have for that. But to pretend that Trump isn't--at the very least (and being very generous)--openly sympathetic to white supremacist groups is just straight up intellectually dishonest.

Whether it bothers you is a matter of your own personal moral code (and that's your business), but you can't be taken seriously if you're just going to deny it and use typical propaganda nonsense tactics ("oh, the media says everyone is racist, so there's no way to know who's really a racist"... "Well the left does it too, so you can't condemn the right for it").

In addition to everything @Baconlord and others have said, let's not forget that in the middle of a raging pandemic racking up hundreds of lives lost every day, civil unrest in cities across the country, a tanking economy, and everything else, Trump was touting an obsession not just with Confederate statues but with a plan (that was bipartisan and done with the Army's support and consent) to rename Army bases named after Confederate generals. He went so far as to threaten to veto the military's funding bill over it--so he was literally ready to threaten U.S. national security in order to protect token symbols of a racist past.

Words are cheap. Who cares how many interviews you can find where Trump gave some mealy-mouthed statement 'denouncing' white supremacists. Actions are what matter.
I dont support trump at all. I think hes a moron. He harbours plenty of dumb views. Im just referring to the fact the far left are way worse.

your entire argument there went like this.

heres my opinion
If you dont agree with my opinion youre lying or racist?

Not one thing backed up

see the issue? At least others who i might not agree with are making cases.
 

KingHippo

Alternative-Fact Checker
making unsubstantiated bitch ass snide remarks and not tagging the person it’s obviously intended at.

good faith.
Hardly unsubstantiated, its been your MO, and I would say the only bitch is someone who has to get an extra blanky thinking about the terrifying ideology of anti-fascism in another country
 

Wigy

There it is...
Hardly unsubstantiated, its been your MO, and I would say the only bitch is someone who has to get an extra blanky thinking about the terrifying ideology of anti-fascism in another country
do you know what substantiated means? All you do is come in and makes idiotic snide remarks for likes
 

mastermalone

Use only logic, please
One doesn't need to be a racist to believe in a strong border.



At least in regards to immigration, Obama DID do that shit, his administration bearing some of the most severe examples of enforcement to date.
We've had the same border issues for years. Also, I'm not stating this is racist. It is a bias that people seem to have when it comes to what they believe is an immigrant. I challenge you to say the word, "immigrant" and not picture a person from south of the border. I'm sure you don't think of someone from say, England, as an immigrant when that word is tossed around. Fair is fair so if you are going to be about it, be about it and stop those folks at the airport and/or border. We can't have strong borders if all these European folks keep flying in and overstaying their Visas. Not only that, most of you live in areas where folks from south of the border do not live or have any impact on you whatsoever.

If Obama did the same stuff that Trump has done, "severe" as you state, then where are the actual articles that describe them? Don't send any far right documentation either. I need fair, balanced articles that do not subscribe to liberal or conservative narratives. Think about this for a second. If a mixed race president did ANYTHING out of line that the "establishment" did not approve of, they would have taken action within seconds. If Obama would have separated families in these prison camps, he would have been impeached and removed from office within weeks. You and I both know this.

It did not help that the mans father is black and that a decent section of this country could not stand the thought of him holding office. There were lots of Senators in that category who wanted to undermine him at any cost. I need everyone to stop making excuses for a man who clearly could care less about what this country's laws are and does things to undermine them at every turn. If we can all get away with what he's doing, then I have no leg to stand on. But guess what, I have two and I'm standing quite well on them. Let common sense drive your sense of reality, not emotions.
 

KingHippo

Alternative-Fact Checker
do you know what substantiated means? All you do is come in and makes idiotic snide remarks for likes
I do, I just didn't think you'd need to have me repeat what you've typed back to you.

I would say I mostly come in and mock reactionaries. At most I'd get two likes; if I wanted to be popular I'd find something else to post