MK11 Johnny Cage General Discussion

[DDutchguy]

What's your opinion on f2 becoming a mid?

It'd make me wonder what the point of F4 would become since F2 would be better in every way except range. F21 being hit confirmable and F2 being 11 frames compared to F4s 14 frames would make the range difference barely noteworthy though.

 

[thlityoursloat]

Fully agree. If forceballs don't whiff on any crouch blocking opponent (with maybe some buffs to his Krushing Blows), I think Johnny will be completely fine.

Not "maybe" a buff to his KBs, he needs a buff to his KBs because they are so worthless that they are never worth getting.

 

[Jbog]

F3 is fine if his highs quit wiffing on crouch block he'd be a beast!

 

[Owerbart]

F3 needs to be a mid, because he already has no mixups at all. There's not a single reason not to block low vs johnny. He's supposed to be a footsies character and he gets outclassed mid range by quite a lot of the cast. He has not a single overhead. The meta of this game makes special focus in mids. And to people saying "yeah but that would make f4 irrelevant" i just tell them yeah, why not? All characters have useless strings. Without going further, f43 is probably the worst string in the game, and I would even consider it a buff if they just remove it from the game completely. I'll gradly trade a one in hundred chance of hitting that krushing blow for the assurance that if I miss my f4>nps, i don't get demolished. The problem with f4 is that it is too fucking slow and too negative on block to the point that it is useless to throw it in mixups.

Yeah the forceballs whiffing is fucking bullshit as well, and you know what? Let's say you have the luck to play against a kharacter they don't whiff on, congrats. You are at only fucking +3 WITH NO GOOD MID to keep the pressure going. Hit your nutpunch? Congrats! You are only at fucking +5, with once again, no good mid to go for a blockstring. And b34 is slow as shit lmao.

In konklusion, this character has

1. No good mid in a game footsie oriented
2. No mix ups
3. No meterless launchers besides an unsafe normal
4. Worst krushing blows in the game.
5. Laughable "tricks", since his "frame traps" are a joke.
6. Atrocious whiffing issues.

Give Johnny's F3 mid properties and I assure you he's not going to be in autopilot nor a top tier character. You are just going to turn him from low tier into a mid tier.

He's still the only kombatant I play but goddamn I want whoever designed Johnny fired.

 

[M.D.]

So basically instead of actually fixing the strings he can't use, fix the fireballs not hitting, and fixing the KB, which give you freedom of play and choices on what you can do, you want the character to become a literal f344 spam machine.

So i'll still whiff all the other strings, and amplify fireballs, so practically i'm down spamming a single string into nothing for the entire length of the match. That's horrible.

Let's FIX things first and then talk about buffs.

 

[DDutchguy]

F3 needs to be a mid, because he already has no mixups at all.

Define 'mixup'. If to you a mixup is being able to mix low and overhead, keep in mind that strike/throw mixups are also a thing and Johnny is a master at it due to standing 1, standing 2 and F3 staggers.

The problem with f4 is that it is too fucking slow and too negative on block to the point that it is useless to throw it in mixups.

Which is why people tend to use it as a whiff punisher, to catch people ducking or to force a reaction after hitting amplified forceballs.

You are at only fucking +3 WITH NO GOOD MID to keep the pressure going.

I heavily disagree. While F4 is a 14-frame mid giving an 11-frame gap, there is still plenty to work with. Let's say your opponent expects a F4 right after you do amplified forceballs and they poke back with whatever string or normal. You can:

• Slightly delay F4 to whiff punish their attempt to hit the earlier F4 they expected you to do.
• Go for a jump-in.
• Whiff punish with B34 instead.
• Dash up throw if they always respect F4
• Dash up D1 if they expect dash up throw.

etc.

Hit your nutpunch? Congrats! You are only at fucking +5, with once again, no good mid to go for a blockstring.

Which is why you have an actual mixup between D1/D4 and throw after hitting a nut punch. If you hit a D4, you can jail a F3 into a stagger, F344, etc. If you hit the throw then neat you get 14% and you're in good zoning range. Also, if they try to duck the throw, you can make a read and B34/F4 them into a full combo.

Give Johnny's F3 mid properties and I assure you he's not going to be in autopilot nor a top tier character.

Why would I use any other string besides F3 though considering it has amazing range, leads to an insanely easy hit confirm and F344 gives just enough pushback to give you some space in footsies?

------------------------------------

Making F3 a mid would be a solution to a problem Johnny does not have. I think you underrate F4 and Johnny's mixups (not low/overhead but strike/throw/stagger).

Are you on PC by any chance? I'd love to fight your Johnny if you do, see how you play him.

 

[Jbog]

Shadow kick krushing blow and hitbox fixes across the entire game. Johnny is totally good. If he needs a mid so bad maybe his f212 string as a mid that makes more sense that mash mid string f344

 

[thlityoursloat]

Honestly his F4 is perfectly fine.. apart from its whiff recovery. It's annoying how much recovery JC has on his F4 and B3 strings, when Cassie can throw out a button with similar range, faster and recovers faster anyways. If in any case you jump his f4 or b3 you get a punish free.

 

[Owerbart]

@DDutchguy i'm on ps4 and I live in south america. But you know what? I'm going to record some of my cage matches this weekend if i have the chance.

On the good side, I just got my n3 japanese language diploma! And the last four weeks i spent them ranting to my 60 year old japanese sensei about how much i hate a videogame. But it was in japanese so it was good practice!

 

[DDutchguy]

@DDutchguy i'm on ps4 and I live in south america. But you know what? I'm going to record some of my cage matches this weekend if i have the chance.

On the good side, I just got my n3 japanese language diploma! And the last four weeks i spent them

Appreciate it. Congrats on the diploma!

 

[Owerbart]

Appreciate it. Congrats on the diploma!

Thanks man!

 

[kelevra]

I don't think making f3 a mid would be a smart thing, he'd be autopilot af.
Just fix the whiffing and make his crushing blows actually usable, then we'll see how things go.

 

[Hawfy]

It doesn't really. I'm not a fan of the idea of giving him mindless staggers with jump distance range.

He only really needs forceballs not to suck. If you can't crouch block under them his mid-range will be complete and he'll be good to go

His stand 1 also needs fixed.
D1 & D3 are both +10 on hit yet you can get poked or punished for for trying anything to do anything other than F4 or another down poke.

 

[Cobainevermind87]

His stand 1 also needs fixed.
D1 & D3 are both +10 on hit yet you can get poked or punished for for trying anything to do anything other than F4 or another down poke.

They jail into s2 but it's pretty tight, and only works against bigger hurtboxes. I think it only works on the same characters his force balls don't whiff on, but I'm not sure. Too many whiffing issues to keep straight at this point.

 

[FoughtDragon01]

They jail into s2 but it's pretty tight, and only works against bigger hurtboxes. I think it only works on the same characters his force balls don't whiff on, but I'm not sure. Too many whiffing issues to keep straight at this point.

Man, just reading that hurts. Imagine how much better he'd be if we had a consistent, nearly guaranteed, hit-confirmable 244 after every D1 check.

 

[Deleted member 35141]

He's my main. Why would he need a mid F3 that turns him into an autopiloting F344 machine all game?

F3 doesnt need to be a mid but I can give you a legit reason why it could. Heres the scenario

1.Lets say hitboxes never get fixed and "only" 22 characters have faster mid/lows.

2.Now every character knows their highs whiff against johnny so what do they do, well they use their fast mid for example jax 9f forward reaching mid.

3.Now johnny goes up against the cast knowing all my highs have a possibility to whiff so what does johnny do, well he can use his f4 14 frame mid or 18 frame low
The fix to all this is fix hitboxes and keep f3 a high or nrs keeps being hitbox incompetent and make f2 a mid giving us a option for so many whiffs.
If you think im a idiot play a good jaqui or cassie and realize you legitimately cant hit them and your "fast" mid gets beaten by their fast mids all the time.

 

[Cobainevermind87]

D1 & D3 are both +10 on hit yet you can get poked or punished for for trying anything to do anything other than F4 or another down poke.

I'm not going to argue.

 

[ShepherdOfFire]

So basically instead of actually fixing the strings he can't use, fix the fireballs not hitting, and fixing the KB, which give you freedom of play and choices on what you can do, you want the character to become a literal f344 spam machine.

So i'll still whiff all the other strings, and amplify fireballs, so practically i'm down spamming a single string into nothing for the entire length of the match. That's horrible.

Let's FIX things first and then talk about buffs.

I agree, but that statement should not be applied to showstopper. Showstopper needs actual buffs on top of the whiffing issues. That variation is garbage

 

[thlityoursloat]

I agree, but that statement should not be applied to showstopper. Showstopper needs actual buffs on top of the whiffing issues. That variation is garbage

What it needs is for sunglass toss to be tossed out the window, and replaced with a useful ability. What the christ is that move even.

 

[Deleted member 35141]

I see people are just assuming nrs can fix these shitboxes just like they did for mkx johnny.........oh wait.
No you guys are right johnny having a dirty move would make him OP and the only character with a dirty move......oh wait.

 

[DDutchguy]

I see people are just assuming nrs can fix these shitboxes just like they did for mkx johnny.........oh wait.
No you guys are right johnny having a dirty move would make him OP and the only character with a dirty move......oh wait.

My take on the situation is that F3 being mid doesn't solve much and still leaves him with the same problems. An argument of 'but other characters have dirty moves' doesn't cut it.

 

[ShepherdOfFire]

What it needs is for sunglass toss to be tossed out the window, and replaced with a useful ability. What the christ is that move even.

No I'm sure we can make something out of it. I'm copy pasting the changes I wrote from another thread to make the variation decent in my opinion:
Say Cheese :

• Start up down from 27 to 19~22 frames so we can use it at the end of some anti air 1/d1 combos and connect it after a 34
• Better range on the Say Cheese
• Say Cheese KB changed to something like "Unlocked after the third Say Cheese MB of the match"

Throwing Shades :

• The hitboxes are fixed and this is now a true mid projectile
• The Shades should be like -3 or -4 on block
• The startup should be low enough to not be poked out to make it a pressure tool but long enough to have a Flawless Block gap that would leave Cage at -11~-13
• The Krushing Blow requirement should be like "Triggered if it connects as the 8th hit or more in a combo"

The variation would be worth picking after these changes imho

 

[Deleted member 35141]

My take on the situation is that F3 being mid doesn't solve much and still leaves him with the same problems. An argument of 'but other characters have dirty moves' doesn't cut it.

So what your saying is johnny needs whiff issues fixed and useful kbs based on what then?
Based on the rest of the roster not having either of these issues besides a select few so your non argument of dirty moves is a contradiction.
OR your saying johnny doesnt need better hitboxes and KBs BECAUSE other characters have them and johhny wouldnt be unique anymore ?

 

[DDutchguy]

So what your saying is johnny needs whiff issues fixed and useful kbs based on what then?
Based on the rest of the roster not having either of these issues besides a select few so your non argument of dirty moves is a contradiction.
OR your saying johnny doesnt need better hitboxes and KBs BECAUSE other characters have them and johhny wouldnt be unique anymore ?

Johnny needs whiff issues fixed and useful KBs based on him becoming a significantly better character for it. In my opinion he doesn't need any extra dirtiness so long as these two things are done. This way, Johnny can be an honest character compared to some of the others in the cast and still be good. I don't like giving characters dirt because other characters have it too.

 

[Rodney Quillz]

If they just made b3 faster(which would be more beneficial than making f3 mid because it reaches farther.) you wouldn’t have to make f3 a mid because people wouldn’t just be neutral ducking all day with the fear of being clipped by b3.