Question - Shinnok With the KP2 patch coming up, what buffs/nerfs should Shinnok receive

[STB Damashi]

i agree, but not very good at winning.
only character i would pick impostor vs is Goro because hitting him with his own stomp is funny.

Eh, I guess you're right. Bone Shaper is better in most MU. I like using Mileena's own roll against her, Quan Chi a taste of his own medicine, Kotal Kahn as well, and overall it's just fun to use him. Also the pressure I can put while they are in Mimicry stun, constantly waiting what my next move is going to be, it's a really good variation.

 

[KGA Prosaic]

Well, I meant mainly for armor purposes. I know he steal's Kotal's air grab and it functions like the EX air grab, the lucky bastard. >=O

I wonder if he had a way to make himself super + on whiffing the aa

 

[Goat-City]

Maybe create an Ex version of the mimicry which grants a variation specific stolen move.

LOL Imagine Shinnok with the ice clone! Don't know how I'd feel about that tbh.

 

[Eldriken]

I wonder if he had a way to make himself super + on whiffing the aa

I wonder if anyone has explored that? =O

 

[STB Damashi]

I wonder if anyone has explored that? =O

I have explored that and the best I can get is neutral or even a bit minus after 312~Air-Grab. It is best to just use it in a combo since it does a bunch of damage anyways and you can use it for Mimicry restand. I still need to test it a bit more though since I'm a bit fuzzy on the relationship between recovery, cancel advantage, and block stun :/

 

[STB Damashi]

LOL Imagine Shinnok with the ice clone! Don't know how I'd feel about that tbh.

Putting Sub Zero in the corner and using your 18 frame overhead or going in for a low, A GRAB!! That would be awesome: trapping them with their own move.

 

[Syzoth]

Another buff he desperately needs in Necromancer is to not look so fucking silly. Give him back his regular arms and change something else in the aesthetics department. >_>

Around halloween I was praying for a skeleton outfit but I didn't know how they'd handle x rays and fatalities.

 

[MrSunshine]

he is fineeeeeee staaaaaaaahp

 

[STB Damashi]

he is fineeeeeee staaaaaaaahp

Is he though? Also, nice drawing btw

 

[Skylight1]

Necromancer is the one variation that NEEDS to be revamped, I mean for Christ's sakes.

 

[ArmedCalf]

'sigh', I'mma edit this post to include some revised changes after I read them all.

EDIT: Aight so I read all the suggestions, here's my take.

1. D4xxHell Sparks is no longer true. I personally am for this. This is like the one thing people have a weird issue with so I'm all for them removing it. I'm trying to remember this off the top of my head, but I think d4xxHell Sparks does like 5% chip with no buff. That's pretty darn good. If they got rid of that and let me keep my 7f low then I'd be down.

2. Standing 3 as a low. People mainly want this because it looks like it should be a low. I don't think it will help/hurt Shinnok but I personally don't want it. It might make the 50/50 harder to fuzzy but at the same time people already know to watch for a low and then go to a high. So iunno, even if it was a low I feel like most people would prefer going with 112 as a punish anyway (cept maybe in the corner).

3. Better tracking on flick. I think we all agree he needs it. When I play Necro, I never really throw it out. The only time I do is to check people on wake-up from across the screen or to catch people when they try and jump (once again from across the screen because anywhere else seems like suicide lol). @imblackjames dude I also would love flick to be less negative because I play a more in-your-face Necro, but my next point would be why it doesn't matter.

4. Amulet as a safe option for Necro and Imposter. As it stands at the moment, Imposter and Necro are only safe when they meter burn Hell Sparks or if they meter burn the amulet. It would be pretty cool to have a safe option to go with instead of always having to throw away meter. I would have it at like -5 or -6 but that's just me. I'm okay with him not getting this but it would be a luxury if we did.

5. Armour on EX bone grab. I saw someone mention this and I'm totally all for it. I think getting an armoured launcher would make Necromancer insaaaaaaane. Would his zoning be better? Nah not really but he could punish projectiles from across screen and that would be pretty siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiick. Definitely won't happen but it would be nuts.

6. Imposter is hella viable @usedcarsalesmang . I'm surprised you don't think so! Sure he relies on a lot of bullshit and gimmicks imo but if you land that hit ooooooooooh baby. I think he kills half the cast.

7. I don't think he needs an EX mimicry, but I think certain moves should change. He shouldn't steal F/T's command grab - it's a free 19% for goodness sakes. Same with Goro's stomp but honestly the only other move he would probably get is like punch walk or EX punch walk which would probably be better. Takeda's move sucks to steal, but honestly I've come to the realization that the MU is probably all about us whiffing that move instead of going for the vortex or just using it at all. Predator's is advantageous because the 50/50 and mind games are harder to see coming. Jason's is awful holy hell. Give us clothesline pleeeeeease.

lol and honestly my secret nerf that I'll forever dream about, is taking away the armour on EX scoop. But that's my views! What else do yas think about all this?

 

[ArmedCalf]

Oh and yeah, please give us an aesthetic change to Necro I want pimp rings on the bone hands

 

[usedcarsalesmang]

'sigh', I'mma edit this post to include some revised changes after I read them all.

EDIT: Aight so I read all the suggestions, here's my take.

1. D4xxHell Sparks is no longer true. I personally am for this. This is like the one thing people have a weird issue with so I'm all for them removing it. I'm trying to remember this off the top of my head, but I think d4xxHell Sparks does like 5% chip with no buff. That's pretty darn good. If they got rid of that and let me keep my 7f low then I'd be down.

2. Standing 3 as a low. People mainly want this because it looks like it should be a low. I don't think it will help/hurt Shinnok but I personally don't want it. It might make the 50/50 harder to fuzzy but at the same time people already know to watch for a low and then go to a high. So iunno, even if it was a low I feel like most people would prefer going with 112 as a punish anyway (cept maybe in the corner).

3. Better tracking on flick. I think we all agree he needs it. When I play Necro, I never really throw it out. The only time I do is to check people on wake-up from across the screen or to catch people when they try and jump (once again from across the screen because anywhere else seems like suicide lol). @imblackjames dude I also would love flick to be less negative because I play a more in-your-face Necro, but my next point would be why it doesn't matter.

4. Amulet as a safe option for Necro and Imposter. As it stands at the moment, Imposter and Necro are only safe when they meter burn Hell Sparks or if they meter burn the amulet. It would be pretty cool to have a safe option to go with instead of always having to throw away meter. I would have it at like -5 or -6 but that's just me. I'm okay with him not getting this but it would be a luxury if we did.

5. Armour on EX bone grab. I saw someone mention this and I'm totally all for it. I think getting an armoured launcher would make Necromancer insaaaaaaane. Would his zoning be better? Nah not really but he could punish projectiles from across screen and that would be pretty siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiick. Definitely won't happen but it would be nuts.

6. Imposter is hella viable @usedcarsalesmang . I'm surprised you don't think so! Sure he relies on a lot of bullshit and gimmicks imo but if you land that hit ooooooooooh baby. I think he kills half the cast.

7. I don't think he needs an EX mimicry, but I think certain moves should change. He shouldn't steal F/T's command grab - it's a free 19% for goodness sakes. Same with Goro's stomp but honestly the only other move he would probably get is like punch walk or EX punch walk which would probably be better. Takeda's move sucks to steal, but honestly I've come to the realization that the MU is probably all about us whiffing that move instead of going for the vortex or just using it at all. Predator's is advantageous because the 50/50 and mind games are harder to see coming. Jason's is awful holy hell. Give us clothesline pleeeeeease.

lol and honestly my secret nerf that I'll forever dream about, is taking away the armour on EX scoop. But that's my views! What else do yas think about all this?

didn't get the tag. i don't think tags usually work unless editing a post.

but I don't think impostor is viable for a bunch of reasons. We never seen woundcowboy using that variation even though he wants to; so if that variation was viable then I'm sure he would've made it work since hes a character loyalist.

Impostor might be better than BS in a few matchups where he doesn't have to whiff the stolen move to continue vortex, but other than that why not just pick BS?
Imposter doesn't have a safe string for meter building and he relies too much on tele which I'm guessing doesn't work too well offline.
Also I think him stealing F/T's 19% command grab is fine since he gets a 16% throw after mimicry anyway.
And removing the armor on EXScoop after its already been nerfed wtf?? what is this heresy?

Shinnok is braindead by nature because NRS completely dropped the ball on his design. Thats why a simple buff like making DB -4 on block made him super OP. Restand helped too, but DB was the main thing. You can't really buff or nerf anything with Shinnok without making him bottom 5 or top 5. He just such a basic character that had no thought put into him.

 

[ArmedCalf]

didn't get the tag. i don't think tags usually work unless editing a post.

but I don't think impostor is viable for a bunch of reasons. We never seen woundcowboy using that variation even though he wants to; so if that variation was viable then I'm sure he would've made it work since hes a character loyalist.

Impostor might be better than BS in a few matchups where he doesn't have to whiff the stolen move to continue vortex, but other than that why not just pick BS?
Imposter doesn't have a safe string for meter building and he relies too much on tele which I'm guessing doesn't work too well offline.
Also I think him stealing F/T's 19% command grab is fine since he gets a 16% throw after mimicry anyway.
And removing the armor on EXScoop after its already been nerfed wtf?? what is this heresy?

Shinnok is braindead by nature because NRS completely dropped the ball on his design. Thats why a simple buff like making DB -4 on block made him super OP. Restand helped too, but DB was the main thing. You can't really buff or nerf anything with Shinnok without making him bottom 5 or top 5. He just such a basic character that had no thought put into him.

It's like you said he's a character loyalist - not a variation loyalist. I have seen him play Imposter, but BS is probably better in general for results. Besides by that logic, Necro would be more viable just because Wound plays it - which is craaaaaazy.

He doesn't have a safe string but he still has d4xxsparks and even 112 when you have to MB a spark still builds a good amount of meter. The F/T command grab can only be escaped by breaking. While it's very hard you can still tech a throw. I want to remove the armour so that BS isn't as crazy. I know it'll never happen but that's like my fantasy.

EDIT: forgot the teleport part. Yes the teleport and any teleport gimmicks are easier to catch offline, but IA njk is still ridiiiiiculous. I think people are just really obvious and teleport happy. It's a nice way to get in or apply pressure - you just can't be super obvious

 

[True Grave]

• Amulet Strike (Necromancer/Impostor) - I have already mentioned this in other threads, but Shinnok's Amulet Strike would be more effective if it had decreased start-up frames and decreased recovery frames. I try to use it from time to time on projectiles but it is difficult to time and not really effective. It is only +2 on hit and -10 on block.

I just found that if you do an ex Amulet Strike with and do a very fast ru cancel into d4 Hell Sparks that you get unarmorable pressure against your opponent. And in some situations like buzz saw Lao, they can't punish after the non MB Hell Sparks. Still more testing needing to be done tho.

 

[ArmedCalf]

I just found that if you do an ex Amulet Strike with and do a very fast ru cancel into d4 Hell Sparks that you get unarmorable pressure against your opponent. And in some situations like buzz saw Lao, they can't punish after the non MB Hell Sparks. Still more testing needing to be done tho.

I heard IA dive kick beats raw Hell Sparks though, that would be a decent punish with Buzz Saw wouldn't it?

 

[True Grave]

I heard IA dive kick beats raw Hell Sparks though, that would be a decent punish with Buzz Saw wouldn't it?

I could try, but I haven't fully tested where punishes are yet with it but here's what I was saying about unarmorable pressure

And here is what I was saying with Lao. Isn't iA divekick slower than ex spin tho? Don't know the number for his divekick.

 

[Derptile]

D4 sparks is fine.

 

[ArmedCalf]

I could try, but I haven't fully tested where punishes are yet with it but here's what I was saying about unarmorable pressure

And here is what I was saying with Lao. Isn't iA divekick slower than ex spin tho? Don't know the number for his divekick.

Good shit as always. Yeah the amulet knocks them back to a point where the dive kick won't reach - it's dope.

 

[SaSSolino]

2. Standing 3 as a low. People mainly want this because it looks like it should be a low. I don't think it will help/hurt Shinnok but I personally don't want it. It might make the 50/50 harder to fuzzy but at the same time people already know to watch for a low and then go to a high. So iunno, even if it was a low I feel like most people would prefer going with 112 as a punish anyway (cept maybe in the corner).

4. Amulet as a safe option for Necro and Imposter. As it stands at the moment, Imposter and Necro are only safe when they meter burn Hell Sparks or if they meter burn the amulet. It would be pretty cool to have a safe option to go with instead of always having to throw away meter. I would have it at like -5 or -6 but that's just me. I'm okay with him not getting this but it would be a luxury if we did.

those 2 buffs together would help Impostor a lot in my opinion, having an hit-confirmable safe low option would be great! plus the meter building of the amulet would be greatly appreciated. we all have our dreams.

 

[usedcarsalesmang]

It's like you said he's a character loyalist - not a variation loyalist. I have seen him play Imposter, but BS is probably better in general for results. Besides by that logic, Necro would be more viable just because Wound plays it - which is craaaaaazy.

He doesn't have a safe string but he still has d4xxsparks and even 112 when you have to MB a spark still builds a good amount of meter. The F/T command grab can only be escaped by breaking. While it's very hard you can still tech a throw. I want to remove the armour so that BS isn't as crazy. I know it'll never happen but that's like my fantasy.

EDIT: forgot the teleport part. Yes the teleport and any teleport gimmicks are easier to catch offline, but IA njk is still ridiiiiiculous. I think people are just really obvious and teleport happy. It's a nice way to get in or apply pressure - you just can't be super obvious

Woundcowboy only uses Necro when hes bored with BS or because he thinks it will make the matchup easier not because he thinks necro is better. Not to mention most people don't know that variation at the highest level so he can sneak in a win with Necro.

D4xxHS can't be your go to normal. at close range the last hit of HS will whiff and some characters can punish it even if they block all 3 sparks.
112 has two highs in it, it's very rare that you'll have a chance to land that string unless you have your opponent in the corner. It doesn't have the range to be used in neutral.

EXscoop lost alot of its range so its not even crazy anymore. not as great at blowing up zoning like it used to be

 

[ArmedCalf]

Woundcowboy only uses Necro when hes bored with BS or because he thinks it will make the matchup easier not because he thinks necro is better. Not to mention most people don't know that variation at the highest level so he can sneak in a win with Necro.

D4xxHS can't be your go to normal. at close range the last hit of HS will whiff and some characters can punish it even if they block all 3 sparks.
112 has two highs in it, it's very rare that you'll have a chance to land that string unless you have your opponent in the corner. It doesn't have the range to be used in neutral.

EXscoop lost alot of its range so its not even crazy anymore. not as great at blowing up zoning like it used to be

Lol alright I'll bite:

It's very rare to land 112? What lol? You can do it off a jump in, as a punish, after a restand, after a teleport, etc. There are a lot of times when you can go to 112. No I suppose you wouldn't run up and throw out 112 but why would you ever when you have a 7f low?

After an IA njk, d4xxSparks will fully connect. People with ranged specials can hit you but other than that you're golden so it's actually solid af.

His vortex absolutely destroys certain characters. If you guess wrong twice then you die. Even if your opponent tries to fuzzy the 50/50 every single time - you can try a grab which would add 16% anyway and still leaves you with a damage buff. The amount of tricks and shit he has against certain characters is nuts. The teleport despite popular belief is actually godlike if you can do it fast enough. If people don't have armour then you can literally do it after hitting raw hell sparks to catch people who tech roll.

Sure Imposter might not be an S tier variation but it's viable dude. DJT literally just listed it as an A+ variation in another thread.

 

[usedcarsalesmang]

Lol alright I'll bite:

It's very rare to land 112? What lol? You can do it off a jump in, as a punish, after a restand, after a teleport, etc. There are a lot of times when you can go to 112. No I suppose you wouldn't run up and throw out 112 but why would you ever when you have a 7f low?

After an IA njk, d4xxSparks will fully connect. People with ranged specials can hit you but other than that you're golden so it's actually solid af.

His vortex absolutely destroys certain characters. If you guess wrong twice then you die. Even if your opponent tries to fuzzy the 50/50 every single time - you can try a grab which would add 16% anyway and still leaves you with a damage buff. The amount of tricks and shit he has against certain characters is nuts. The teleport despite popular belief is actually godlike if you can do it fast enough. If people don't have armour then you can literally do it after hitting raw hell sparks to catch people who tech roll.

Sure Imposter might not be an S tier variation but it's viable dude. DJT literally just listed it as an A+ variation in another thread.

we're talking about 112 on block if you're discussing meter building. not a punish or whatever. and yeah, why use it when you have a 7 frame low lol.
i wouldn't do it off a jump in unless I was going for chip-out because why miss an opportunity to make my opponent guess between B3 and delay F4?

IA tele in NJ is fully escape-able. all the opponent has to do is backdash

My issue with his vortex is that it ends when he runs out of meter. meter which he has problems building in that variation.
and guess wrong only twice to die from vortex? show me the math on that one pls

if DJT thinks Impostor is so viable then why doesn't he use it? A+ Cutthroat Kano and Impostor Shinnok will never see a top 8.

I'm sure you do fine with Impostor, but I don't use it because i know it won't stand up to the top tiers without a ton of guessing, gimmicks and luck.
I doubt we'll ever see Shinnok in top 8 ever again since the nerf, but I can hope.

 

[Youphemism]

we're talking about 112 on block if you're discussing meter building. not a punish or whatever. and yeah, why use it when you have a 7 frame low lol.
i wouldn't do it off a jump in unless I was going for chip-out because why miss an opportunity to make my opponent guess between B3 and delay F4?

IA tele in NJ is fully escape-able. all the opponent has to do is backdash

My issue with his vortex is that it ends when he runs out of meter. meter which he has problems building in that variation.
and guess wrong only twice to die from vortex? show me the math on that one pls

if DJT thinks Impostor is so viable then why doesn't he use it? A+ Cutthroat Kano and Impostor Shinnok will never see a top 8.

I'm sure you do fine with Impostor, but I don't use it because i know it won't stand up to the top tiers without a ton of guessing, gimmicks and luck.
I doubt we'll ever see Shinnok in top 8 ever again since the nerf, but I can hope.

112 leads to more damage as a starter than F4, that's why.

People thinking a variation is viable doesn't mean they can use it. They can know the characters tools from other people that play the character better. And Cutthroat won a major (along with a little Cyber) so that's your assumption out the window lol.

Impostor does well against Quan, Lao and Tanya at the very least because he can vortex them.

 

[MrSunshine]

Is he though? Also, nice drawing btw

Yes. I'm referring to boneshaper though.

Necro does need some slight adjustments and imposter is very viable. Just needs some stolen moves changed that are pointless