Question - Shinnok With the KP2 patch coming up, what buffs/nerfs should Shinnok receive

[STB Damashi]

Well, I know some people are already saying that Shinnok is broken (Bone Shaper to be specific), but what adjustments would you guys like to see made to Shinnok as a whole? What adjustments would you guys like to see made to Necromancer, and/or Impostor, and/or Bone Shaper?

Edit: Here includes the changes I've seen suggested so far in the thread. I'll continue to update the changes as people have more suggestions.

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Universal:

· D4~Hell Sparks – No longer a true block string

· Standing 3 – Now a Low instead of a Mid Buff

· Standing 4 – Now a Mid instead of a High Buff

· F2 – 2 frames off the start up frames (Down to 15 in Non-Bone Shaper; Down to 17 in Bone Shaper) Buff

· B1 – Increased push-back (enough for all 3 Hell Sparks to connect on block) Buff

· Hell Sparks

o Vertical hit box reduced Nerf​

o Increased recovery frames Nerf​

· D4

o Increased recovery frames Nerf

o 0 cancel advantage frames Nerf​

· Damage – Increased damage output overall Buff

· 11 – Fix hit box issues Buff

· Jump in 1 – Range reduction Nerf

· X-Ray – Bitch slaps into Brutality

· D2 – Made into a High instead of a Mid Nerf

· Hands' Animation – Make hands bigger or remove "creepy" hand movements

Necromancer:

· Devil’s Flick

o Improve tracking Buff​

o Reduced start up frames Buff​

o Reverted back to -4 on block Buff​

· Summoned Fiend

o Improve tracking Buff​

o Safe(r) on block Buff​

o Becomes a Low Buff​

o Reduce start up frames (fast enough to anti-air) Buff​

o Able to Brutality off of​

· Judgment Fist

o Becomes an 11 Frame Overhead instead of Unblockable (similar to Tremor’s Rock Drop) Buff​

o Cancel-able if it does not become an 11 frame overhead (cancel similar to MK9 Jax’s Ground Pound) Buff

o Note: Judgment Smash still remains a slow unblockable. with it able to still crush opponents on delayed wake-up.​

· Judgment Smash – Cancel-able but faster than Judgment Fist's cancel (like the difference in advantage between cancelling LK's fire ball and cancelling his Ex-fire ball) Buff

· Summoned Slam

o Able to utilize twice in one combo Buff

o Armored Buff​

· Variation Aesthetics – Remove silly bone hands in exchange for another aesthetic identifier (possibly Pimp Rings)

Impostor:

· Stolen Moves – Different stolen moves from the following characters:

o Kenshi; currently steals Rising Sword​

o Takeda; currently steals Tornado Kick​

o Jacqui; currently steals Bionic Dash​

o Ferra/Torr; currently steals Deep Stab​

o Raiden; currently steals Electric Fly​

o Goro; currently steals Stomp​

o Jason; currently steals Killing Machine​

o Predator; currently steals Stealth​

· Mimicry

o Kenshi – Steal “Blade Reflect” or “Rising Karma” instead of “Rising Sword”​

o Takeda – Steal “Fist Whirlwind” instead of “Tornado Kick”​

o Raiden – Steal “Shocker” instead of “Electric Fly”​

o Predator – Steal “Scimitar Slam” instead of “Stealth”, or add the ability to combo into Mimicry while Stealth is already active at the cost of removing the invisibility.​

o Add an Enhanced Mimicry or a MB version of Mimicry with the following properties:

1. Armor while using the stolen move Buff
2. Gains the Ex-properties of the stolen move if he does not already Buff
3. Able to hit full screen like Quan Chi's trance Buff

· Air-Tricky Portal

o Can Air-Tricky Portal while grounded (just Tricky Portal); Ex-Version of grounded Tricky Portal with armor upon reaching the destination Shinnok teleported to. Buff

o Can teleport in place, in addition to behind or in front of the opponent. Buff

o Increase recovery frames Nerf​

Bone Shaper:

· Dark Beam – Revert to -8 on block instead of -12. Buff

· F221+3 – Make the “1+3” part of the string able to come out on block (currently +2 but not possible to come out and block; also, come out as a Mid not a throw/grab) Buff

· F4, 1, D2, U2

o U2 is at least 0 on block Buff

o U2 has enough hit advantage to follow up with Sceptor Slam and Sceptor Launch Buff

o Gap between D2 and U2

o Note: Apply the same changes to F3, 1, D2, U2​

· Sceptor Quake – Pops the opponent up into the air; strict timing to combo off it. Buff

· Krushing Shoulder – Can combo off it with Sceptor Slam/Sceptor Launch Buff

Both Impostor and Necromancer:

· Krushing Shoulder – Able to juggle off it with F22 Buff

· F2, 2, 4

o Fix hit box issues; some female characters low profile this mid hitting string while crouching or crouch blocking. Buff

o Add more cancel advantage frames to '4' Buff

o Less minus on block (currently -17) Buff​

· Amulet Strike

o Reduce start up frames Buff​

o Reduce recovery frames Buff​

o Safe on block (around -5/-6) Buff​

o Made into a Mid instead of a High. Buff

o Implement one of the 3 following options: Buff

1. When Shinnok negates a projectile, 20-25% of a meter is gained
2. When Shinnok negates a projectile, 2% of health is gained back
3. When Shinnok negates a projectile, the next time Amulet Strike is used, it comes out faster with projectile absorbing properties, ~10% damage, ~3% chip damage, and at least neutral on block (similar to Ronin Takeda's Piercing Beam)

o Similar to Sun God, Shinnok's Amulet Strike contains 3 different stages: Buff

1. 1st Stage - When one projectile is negated, Shinnok has the option to release a mid-hitting projectile at 6% damage with a new input of DF+1 (utilizes one stock).
2. 2nd Stage - Once the 2nd projectile has been negated, and if DF+1 has not been used, a new input (DF+3) replenishes 50% of a bar, or remove 50% of a bar from the opponent (utilizes the two stocks).
3. 3rd Stage - Replenish 12% of health (utilizing three stocks) with a new input (DF+2).
4. Add some sort of visual indicator of the number of stocks in the Amulet.

 

[Eldriken]

d4~Hell Sparks is no longer a thing.

 

[STB Damashi]

• Standing 3 (Universal) - I would love it if '3' was made into a low because it would deter people from trying to fuzzy block Shinnok. Don't get me wrong, I can definitely use other strategies such as delaying the low, going in for a throw, or simply trying to throw off their timing, but standing 3 leads into great damage in the corner and it would just be another nice thing for Shinnok to have going for him

• Amulet Strike (Necromancer/Impostor) - I have already mentioned this in other threads, but Shinnok's Amulet Strike would be more effective if it had decreased start-up frames and decreased recovery frames. I try to use it from time to time on projectiles but it is difficult to time and not really effective. It is only +2 on hit and -10 on block.

 

[usedcarsalesmang]

no nerfs pls

 

[STB Damashi]

d4~Hell Sparks is no longer a thing.

I think that would mostly Help D'Vorah since Shinnok's D4 usually has enough push back for most of the characters in the cast to whiff an attempt at a poke back. I think Kotal's D4 reaches too. Nonetheless, it would have a push back and Shinnok can now try and bait armor, back-dash, go for Hell Sparks during their attempt to poke back, do D4~Hell Sparks anyways, it seems like a realistic nerf; Shinnok will still have options so I don't think removing it as a true block string would prevent Shinnok players from doing D4~Hell Sparks

 

[Eldriken]

I think that would mostly Help D'Vorah since Shinnok's D4 usually has enough push back for most of the characters in the cast to whiff an attempt at a poke back. I think Kotal's D4 reaches too. Nonetheless, it would have a push back and Shinnok can now try and bait armor, back-dash, go for Hell Sparks during their attempt to poke back, do D4~Hell Sparks anyways, it seems like a realistic nerf; Shinnok will still have options so I don't think removing it as a true block string would prevent Shinnok players from doing D4~Hell Sparks

Holy shit. Someone who is being reasonable about a nerf suggestion! :O

Aside from that, you do list valid points.

 

[DownfouralitY]

No universal changes, I hope they leave Boneshaper alone, maybe give his amulet a slight buff in Necromancer/Impostor, and improve Flick/Grab in Necro.

 

[SaltShaker]

Necromancer

-make his Bone Hand moves track properly against runners, jumpers, etc.

 

[Eldriken]

Necromancer

-make his Bone Hand moves track properly against runners, jumpers, etc.

Another buff he desperately needs in Necromancer is to not look so fucking silly. Give him back his regular arms and change something else in the aesthetics department. >_>

 

[Youphemism]

Necromancer needs a few adjustments to its zoning because frankly it sucks right now.

Flick should have reduced startup, that way its tracking issues would be completely sorted and he would have some sort of effective zoning. Right now Bone Shaper might actually outzone him which is outrageous considering Necromancer is supposed to be the zoning variation.
Summoned Fiend (only the meterless version) should be safe or safer on block. This would allow him to build some meter (an area Shinnok lacks in), it would give him something meterless to cancel his blockstrings into (most of which are unsafe) and it would make his zoning game worth worrying about. A 20 frame -21 zoning tool is pathetic for a zoning variation.

 

[Pig Of The Hut]

D4 hell sparks gone

Hell sparks vertical hit box reduced

 

[legion666]

I want the amulet in Impostor and Necro to be safe, like -5. Impostor needs to be able to combo from the Mimicry after the Ex Shoulder midscreen. And some better stolen moves choices for Takeda, Jason etc. Maybe create an Ex version of the mimicry which grants a variation specific stolen move.

 

[imblackjames]

As necromancer I want to be able to use his ex summon fiend twice in a combo to get more damage. And i want the flick to be -4 again thats it tbh

 

[Youphemism]

People really need to learn the spacing for getting over hell sparks, I was playing casuals with someone the other day and jumping through them just fine

But yeah he needs improvements to his zoning tools and that's it. At that point he'd be viable.

I want the amulet in Impostor and Necro to be safe, like -5. Impostor needs to be able to combo from the Mimicry after the Ex Shoulder midscreen. And some better stolen moves choices for Takeda, Jason etc. Maybe create an Ex version of the mimicry which grants a variation specific stolen move.

I wouldn't be against making amulet safe too actually, in fact if they made that faster to help with anti-zoning then it would become safer by default so I'll add that to my list.

As necromancer I want to be able to use his ex summon fiend twice in a combo to get more damage. And i want the flick to be -4 again thats it tbh

Why do you want Flick to be -4? It's a zoning tool not a rushdown tool

 

[STB Damashi]

D4 hell sparks gone

Hell sparks vertical hit box reduced

Hmm, I never thought about changing Hell Sparks like that. How would that help other characters? I know a few can jump over the 1st Hell Spark, and Kitana is already a pain in the ass to deal with in addition to her float/air-fans.

 

[gibster13]

Shinnok is fine how he is. Accept he is a great character especially in bone shaper.

Bone Shaper ?
Nothing needs to be change

Imposter?
Amulet faster start up. It's made to absorb projectiles but it is too slow.

Necromancer?
Better tracking all around
Df4 is a low (it looks like a low so y not?)
Unblockable becomes overhead at 11 frames start up (bit of a joke really but tremor has it so y not ?)
MAKE BONE HANDS NOT LOOK LIKE SHIT

 

[ArmedCalf]

Remove d4xxHell Sparks

Umm....Give Necro an armoured launcher or fix tracking on flick.

Imposter: change the moves of F/T so that MU isn't as wrecked.

 

[imblackjames]

People really need to learn the spacing for getting over hell sparks, I was playing casuals with someone the other day and jumping through them just fine

But yeah he needs improvements to his zoning tools and that's it. At that point he'd be viable.

I wouldn't be against making amulet safe too actually, in fact if they made that faster to help with anti-zoning then it would become safer by default so I'll add that to my list.

Why do you want Flick to be -4? It's a zoning tool not a rushdown tool

Why cant it be both? Its still work as a zoning tool and then of u used it as a rush down tool and it tagged someone they'd be fullish screen again (for more zoning) if not ur safe

 

[Pig Of The Hut]

Hmm, I never thought about changing Hell Sparks like that. How would that help other characters? I know a few can jump over the 1st Hell Spark, and Kitana is already a pain in the ass to deal with in addition to her float/air-fans.

Right now jumping hell sparks is equivalent to Russian roulette

Make it more skill based

 

[scarsunseen]

I don't think he really needs anything changed. I think the last patch's nerfs adjusted him properly in my opinion. D4-hell sparks is indeed annoying, but it should be expected. Even if they were to change that, how would they??

 

[Youphemism]

Why cant it be both? Its still work as a zoning tool and then of u used it as a rush down tool and it tagged someone they'd be fullish screen again (for more zoning) if not ur safe

Because it isn't designed for that, that change wouldn't make any sense. Even if it was -4 it'd be useless because pretty much everything cancelled into it is interruptable so it doesn't matter how safe it is. That's probably why they made it that way, so people understood it's not for blockstrings.

I don't think he really needs anything changed. I think the last patch's nerfs adjusted him properly in my opinion. D4-hell sparks is indeed annoying, but it should be expected. Even if they were to change that, how would they??

Put it this way, Necromancer's zoning tools need buffs like Jacqui's normals lol

 

[imblackjames]

Because it isn't designed for that, that change wouldn't make any sense. Even if it was -4 it'd be useless because pretty much everything cancelled into it is interruptable so it doesn't matter how safe it is. That's probably why they made it that way, so people understood it's not for blockstrings.

Put it this way, Necromancer's zoning tools need buffs like Jacqui's normals lol

I think they made it -8 because they want u to use meter to be safe as shinnok. I used it for block strings because most people arent expecting it they're expecting sparks so its good safe pressure

 

[MrSunshine]

im sure @EGP Wonder_Chef has nice suggestions

 

[ArmedCalf]

im sure @EGP Wonder_Chef has nice suggestions

He still hates Shinnok?? @EGP Wonder_Chef do you still hate Shinnok?

 

[Youphemism]

I think they made it -8 because they want u to use meter to be safe as shinnok. I used it for block strings because most people arent expecting it they're expecting sparks so its good safe pressure

But it's not safe pressure, 22 frames is reactable lol.