What makes mk so simple?

[GreatKungLao]

There was a time when I thought that MK is a simple fighting game... Untill I started playing Liu Kang in MKX and learning such things as FBRC, IAFB and canceling Shaolin Flame into Whirlwind Punches.

Also, I still remember MKvsDCU and Liu Kang's kombos with 2 and more BKs in a singel combo. That was actually hard, Pro-Moves was a fun thing.

 

[buyacushun]

I would say top tier need some mix of the following

• 50/50s that can be made at least safe (bonus points for being plus)
• Plus frames on block
• Safe advancing strings
• Good armor (Speed, Combo potential, Positioning, Damage. Can be one or a mix of them) [Some characters can get by on other things. Jax can use gotcha]
• Or imo Dumb projectiles

I probably missed an aspect or two of the dominate characters but to me these stand out to be the most glaring things about them. Or anyone that was month 1 "too good".

Basically I think the common theme of the usual top 10 suspects is that, not only do they have good tools but they seemingly "force" their way in MUs. They never really try to outplay as much as just get their dirty shit rolling. Which I think speaks to why Raiden moved down in tiers. He went for "LOL OS safe 50/50 and superman to the wall off of any touch" to "reasonable 50/50 (As reasonable as they'll get) and overall good tools but is now lacking something from the nerfs."

 

[Akromaniac27]

Since this is to my attention .. one reason mileena is a mid tier would he because her lack of adv. long range strings (except for her F214 string and B12 which are both punishable) and also can be poked from a good range. if they were plus frames or safe id think she'd have way more potential.

Mileena is arguably the most balanced character in the game but she's too honest in a disrespectful as fuck game. And still she's too unsafe with some stuff, she should still be punished IMO, but not to the point where there is no 50/50 and very mediocre range yet and speed yet she gets optimal punishes by everyone.

 

[buyacushun]

There was a time when I thought that MK is a simple fighting game... Untill I started playing Liu Kang in MKX and learning such things as FBRC, IAFB and canceling Shaolin Flame into Whirlwind Punches.

Also, I still remember MKvsDCU and Liu Kang's kombos with 2 and more BKs in a singel combo. That was actually hard, Pro-Moves was a fun thing.

Difficulty of execution =/ Simplicity of a game at highest levels.

People would say doing Zero Lightning loops are hard or E.Ryu combos are ok cause they're 1f links. It's been thrown around here talking about LK pressure and D'vorah's. But there is tons of footage from people dying to all of these.

 

[Akromaniac27]

In those two examples, someone who is used to playing another fighter(s) might think those concepts make it overly simplistic compared to what they're used to. I'll explain.

-Most fighters you have your go-to moves/strings/normals. No one uses an entire movelist. This is easier, more abusable, and stronger in MKX compared to most fighters. Say I'm playing Ryu in SF. I have things like low crouch kick and stuff for good pokes. In Tekken I have D/F1 with Lee. Etc. But in MKX, I have safe, fast, advancing normals that lead to combo or block cancel pressure. D'Vorah F1, Cassie B1, Johnny F3, etc. Normals that poke from 1/3 away from the screen into advantageous sutuations are the norm in MKX, so if you come from another game where spacing and timing is more scientific you may look down on Cassie just B1'ing Her way in.

-In a lot of fighters not as many characters have 50/50's, and when they do usually one option is impossible to be made safe. Say in Tekken my main is Bryan since T5DR. I have decent low pokes, but my main low launcher is full combo punishable on block by the cast and also reactable because it's slow. So I have to really open you up to land it, and take a big risk using it. Now turn to MKX, where someone like say Erron can do a OH Low into EX Grenade, and you blocked Both options but he had two bars he can go for another 50/50. Or Quan Chi where if you block the 50/50 perfectly he can just EX Rune and go for another 50/50 which is two 50/50 attempts for 1 bar, or 3 50/50 attempts for 2 bars. Standing there guessing your way out of multiple 50/50 attempts because you're holding plus frames isn't the norm in a lot of games, so can be looked down upon by players of another game.

You should copy and paste this in the other thread talking about the same thing lol. Perfect examples listed.

Mind you, the testers for NRS games are or were previous players with biased balancing because of their mains that has been made known over the past years. That in itself is unprofessional and petty AF

 

[Mark von Zoftmutter]

I find this game INSANELY hard

 

[TarkatanDentist]

I disagree that MKX is 'simple', though I can somewhat understand where that perception may come from, because there are lots of little scenarios where traditional fighting game rules get thrown out the window.

As an example, let's take how armor works here compared to Street Fighter. In Street Fighter, armor is a very powerful tool, but there are fair and reasonable ways to beat it. Each character has at least one move that ignores armor entirely, and throws will always ignore armor as well. Coupled with the fact that damage taken while armored can potentially be gained back, and you have an armor system that's strong, but can easily be beaten if anticipated.

In MKX, it doesn't work that way - armor beats everything that isn't a multi-hit move, and any damage taken isn't recoverable. There aren't nearly so many variables as there are with Street Fighter's armor system, and in some situations, it can definitely seem like it doesn't make much intuitive sense. The fact that armor beats throws is particularly glaring, given that literally every other fighting game has it the other way around. But in the context of how solid throws are in MKX (a lot more so than in Street Fighter, for example), it actually works - it's just that it takes a long time to get used to it because it's not at all what we're used to seeing in a fighting game.

In simple terms, it looks simple because a lot of traditional and universally accepted FG 'rules' aren't followed here.

 

[SaltShaker]

You should copy and paste this in the other thread talking about the same thing lol. Perfect examples listed.

Mind you, the testers for NRS games are or were previous players with biased balancing because of their mains that has been made known over the past years. That in itself is unprofessional and petty AF

I'm not behind the scenes obviously but if I had to guess I'd say the game was intentionally made offense based. Seems like they were aiming for something different, and are making adjustments as they go along. But I don't think we'll be seeing huge defense based changes in the upcoming KP2 Patches. I hope so but I doubt it lol.

 

[buyacushun]

One thing that annoys the hell out of me and really makes MK look easy is the fact jumping leads to whatever you want. Blocked jump-ins, no matter the timing, just grant you offense. In a game where offense is so crazy this just makes everything crazier. This is the only game where players have jumped over me 2-3 times in a row. Yes you can AA but you won't always be able to. And if they land one blocked jump in I'd have to read they'll do another instead of just pressing advantage and doing whatever they want on the ground. I wouldn't mind if this came from some slower, easier to anti air, more damaging heavy normal but it doesn't.

 

[SaltShaker]

I disagree that MKX is 'simple', though I can somewhat understand where that perception may come from, because there are lots of little scenarios where traditional fighting game rules get thrown out the window.

As an example, let's take how armor works here compared to Street Fighter. In Street Fighter, armor is a very powerful tool, but there are fair and reasonable ways to beat it. Each character has at least one move that ignores armor entirely, and throws will always ignore armor as well. Coupled with the fact that damage taken while armored can potentially be gained back, and you have an armor system that's strong, but can easily be beaten if anticipated.

In MKX, it doesn't work that way - armor beats everything that isn't a multi-hit move, and any damage taken isn't recoverable. There aren't nearly so many variables as there are with Street Fighter's armor system, and in some situations, it can definitely seem like it doesn't make much intuitive sense. The fact that armor beats throws is particularly glaring, given that literally every other fighting game has it the other way around. But in the context of how solid throws are in MKX (a lot more so than in Street Fighter, for example), it actually works - it's just that it takes a long time to get used to it because it's not at all what we're used to seeing in a fighting game.

In simple terms, it looks simple because a lot of traditional and universally accepted FG 'rules' aren't followed here.

This is also a perfect example too. One can say "too much armor" while someone else can say "but it works for this game" which becomes a back and forth depending on preference.

 

[EMPEROR PRYCE]

You can play tekken and MK on basically the same principles, I think the complexity of tekken is mainly in the movement, as well as having to know a million different moves and punishes.

If tekken was simplified to a 2D plane and characters kept their most useful moves, you'd probably have a game just like MK tbh.

I personally think KI is more simple than MK, but that's just my opinion.

Then there's also the argument, do the people calling it simple really know what they're talking about? Cause I'm 100% certain our game is dominated by NRS players, there's no top level SF players with enough knowledge about our game to properly compare.

Not saying I disagree, but I'm sure coach Steve is high enough level in both games to comment on them equally.

 

[iMileena]

As an example, let's take how armor works here compared to Street Fighter. In Street Fighter, armor is a very powerful tool, but there are fair and reasonable ways to beat it. Each character has at least one move that ignores armor entirely, and throws will always ignore armor as well. Coupled with the fact that damage taken while armored can potentially be gained back, and you have an armor system that's strong, but can easily be beaten if anticipated.

Wow so if someone wakesup with armor you can just throw them omg they just wasted meter lol well that's a good way to think of the way you spend you meter.

 

[WATCHD0G]

wow i was so sure that this thread would turn into petty arguments.....I'm happy to be wrong for once

 

[buyacushun]

This is also a perfect example too. One can say "too much armor" while someone else can say "but it works for this game" which becomes a back and forth depending on preference.

One thing I do like is that NRS is at least semi consistent with the BS in the game. Part of the reason I cringe whenever people talk about how well balanced MKx is. It's balanced on aspets I don't like bang bang, but at least it's "balanced". Chances are if a character is beating you with plus frames you can find someone to play with plus frames. It's why I stopped bothering with LK v Kotal MU and just dedicate to the LK v Cassie MU. Now if I get to touch LK he has to hold my plus frames and mixups, instead of the one time, gap filled Kotal stuff.

 

[SaltShaker]

One thing I do like is that NRS is at least semi consistent with the BS in the game. Part of the reason I cringe whenever people talk about how well balanced MKx is. It's balanced on aspets I don't like bang bang, but at least it's "balanced". Chances are if a character is beating you with plus frames you can find someone to play with plus frames. It's why I stopped bothering with LK v Kotal MU and just dedicate to the LK v Cassie MU. Now if I get to touch LK he has to hold my plus frames and mixups, instead of the one time, gap filled Kotal stuff.

I agree. It's also why I hate to see characters get nerfed that aren't doing anything. The game itself is so "dirty" so to say, so if anything just bring others up to the nonsense the rest of the characters can do.

 

[GreatKungLao]

One thing I do like is that NRS is at least semi consistent with the BS in the game. Part of the reason I cringe whenever people talk about how well balanced MKx is. It's balanced on aspets I don't like bang bang, but at least it's "balanced". Chances are if a character is beating you with plus frames you can find someone to play with plus frames. It's why I stopped bothering with LK v Kotal MU and just dedicate to the LK v Cassie MU. Now if I get to touch LK he has to hold my plus frames and mixups, instead of the one time, gap filled Kotal stuff.

This is actually a reason why at some level I don't like competitive MKX, because it is too much counter picking oriented, some matchups are ridiculous and you can't go entire tournament with your main if he wasn't lucky to be a top-tier, while in Street Fighter I can see Guy (my main) players owning top tier characters that are played by really good players without such painful-to-watch effort as some characters vs some characters in MKX have to do. I wish tier system did not existed at all in fighting games and everyone was 5-5 with each other, so that players would finally be picking characters in the way they like them as actual characters and not just for the sake of top-tier gameplay. But that's just watching in the sky with pink glasses.

 

[TarkatanDentist]

This is also a perfect example too. One can say "too much armor" while someone else can say "but it works for this game" which becomes a back and forth depending on preference.

Basically.

Another point of note is that Mortal Kombat, as a series, changes a lot more from sequel to sequel than a lot of more popular fighting games do.

Take the Tekken series. If you ignore Tekken 4 (which the majority of longtime Tekken fans prefer to do), the actual core mechanics and basic game plan present has remained mostly unchanged for nearly two decades. People know what to expect from it, and can either take it or leave it quickly.

Mortal Kombat, by contrast, is prone to quite huge shake-ups from sequel to sequel (well, other than the first three games, maybe). This means it takes a lot longer to get used to the new nuances and system mechanics, and even if they're eventually agreed to be acceptable or even beneficial (we can see some evidence of this happening already!), there's inevitably a lot of pushback to start with.

All things considered though, I seriously don't understand why more people don't take the simpler action of playing games they actually enjoy and ignoring everything else.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

What made MK easier to learn was the strings in the pause menu. I'd just try them all and say "alright that's his low" and then see what specials it can work with "ok ex iceball connects" then "what next will give me best damage" or "what will give me best corner carry" and it just kinda flows. It's as easy or as hard as a new player wants to make it.

 

[Undergroundepict]

MK is much more accessible on the ground floor, but it is hardly "simple" at the highest levels. The amount of matchup knowledge required to counter all the character dirt out there is the very definition of "complicated."

Being accessible to new players is a good thing. People develop an elitist attitude about games that have high execution barriers, even though they get rekt every time they come over to the "simpler" games they so happily shit on.

 

[Undergroundepict]

What made MK easier to learn was the strings in the pause menu. I'd just try them all and say "alright that's his low" and then see what specials it can work with "ok ex iceball connects" then "what next will give me best damage" or "what will give me best corner carry" and it just kinda flows. It's as easy or as hard as a new player wants to make it.

How could you mention forward advancing strings and miss tremor and jax broooo lol. They are the WORST offenders. And that erron black string that walks him forward lol

While Tremor and Jax have forward advancing plus on block strings (Jax's f21, Tremor's f12 and f121), both of them can be low profiled and poked out of.

As a Jax main, whenever I play good competition I am forced to mix it up in the neutral, else I will get d4'd to death.

Cassie's b1 string is fucking ridiculous, though. That is stupid. Every fighting game has stupid scrubby shit. HQT low lazer and Summoner Quan's hard-to-blockable is also really scrubby.

That said, this game has a LOT less scrubby shit than it did when it came out. I can really only think of a handful of things that are well and truly broken in this game.

Most of the things people consider broken have counters that aren't even all that hard to devise if guys spent more time actually working on matchups and less time complaining about them.

Another thing is that this game has a lot of character dirt. Matchup experience is so crucial in this game. You can legit make any character in this game appear broken with matchup unfamiliarity shenanigans. The amount of times I have heard people complain that Ermac or Ferra/Torr are broken is astounding, even though both are quite clearly low tier.

 

[Doctor Rektangle]

The fact that you can get 2 hits 20% in MK.

The fact you can do button strings that basically auto combo.

The abundance of 50/50s

The utility you get out of armored launchers.

Relatively simple big damage.

Almost unblockable setups that lead to 30+%

Block button removing cross up pains.

Lack of a DEEP footsie game.

Not to say MKX is shallow or lacking depth. However there's certain mechanics that allow everyone to have a punchers chance.

That and well MKX kombos are not the hardest things to pull off. I'm sure we can all pick any character and do their max damage kombos after 30 minutes to an hour of practice.

Subzero Cryomancer off b2 anyone?

But the combination of all this makes MK unique. It's the reason we're here. The depth may not lie in the inputs/execution or even the advanced techniques. MK seems to ALWAYS come down to MU knowledge.

In every other fighter I may not necessarily have had to play vs a character often to find ways to beat it.

In MKX you ain't beating a good predator if you haven't learned the MU. Low tier characters can demolish you since In MKX, BIG damage comes free.

 

[Undergroundepict]

The fact that you can get 2 hits 20% in MK.

The fact you can do button strings that basically auto combo.

The abundance of 50/50s

The utility you get out of armored launchers.

Relatively simple big damage.

Almost unblockable setups that lead to 30+%

Block button removing cross up pains.

Lack of a DEEP footsie game.

Not to say MKX is shallow or lacking depth. However there's certain mechanics that allow everyone to have a punchers chance.

That and well MKX kombos are not the hardest things to pull off. I'm sure we can all pick any character and do their max damage kombos after 30 minutes to an hour of practice.

Subzero Cryomancer off b2 anyone?

But the combination of all this makes MK unique. It's the reason we're here. The depth may not lie in the inputs/execution or even the advanced techniques. MK seems to ALWAYS come down to MU knowledge.

In every other fighter I may not necessarily have had to play vs a character often to find ways to beat it.

In MKX you ain't beating a good predator if you haven't learned the MU. Low tier characters can demolish you since In MKX, BIG damage comes free.

From a purely philosophical perspective, I don't think that matches should be determined by difficult inputs or execution.

I think that by making inputs and execution a little easier (about where they are in MKX), you allow the match to be determined by footsies, strategy, and the overall mental game. Which makes a game more fun to watch and play.

I don't mean any disrespect by this statement, but it seems like you really like Street Fighter. About half of your criticisms essentially boil down to "it's not Street Fighter." Not every fighting game has to be Street Fighter.

 

[Doctor Rektangle]

From a purely philosophical perspective, I don't think that matches should be determined by difficult inputs or execution.

I think that by making inputs and execution a little easier (about where they are in MKX), you allow the match to be determined by footsies, strategy, and the overall mental game. Which makes a game more fun to watch and play.

I don't mean any disrespect by this statement, but it seems like you really like Street Fighter. About half of your criticisms essentially boil down to "it's not Street Fighter." Not every fighting game has to be Street Fighter.

What?.... did you not read the entire post?

I haven't liked Street Fighter 4 any iteration. But in the post in question I also said

But the combination of all this makes MK unique. It's the reason we're here. The depth may not lie in the inputs/execution or even the advanced techniques. MK seems to ALWAYS come down to MU knowledge.

We like MK this way it is what entices us. It helps distinguish the product

 

[Undergroundepict]

What?.... did you not read the entire post?

I haven't liked Street Fighter 4 any iteration. But in the post in question I also said

But the combination of all this makes MK unique. It's the reason we're here. The depth may not lie in the inputs/execution or even the advanced techniques. MK seems to ALWAYS come down to MU knowledge.

We like MK this way it is what entices us. It helps distinguish the product

Oh ok. My bad, man. There are so many, as SneakyTortoise put it, "why the game is bad and not me" posts in threads such as these that sometimes it is possible to mistake a quality post for a shit one. That was definitely a failure of reading comprehension on my part. Once again, I am sorry.

With that out of the way, about the only thing I disagree with is your assertion that the footsie game is less deep, but that is a different discussion for another thread and another day.

 

[MrInsaynne]

I think MKX is easy to pick up in general. I feel like it's simple in the sense that players and characters can run extremely effective flowcharts and perform well. The hardest part for me to understand has always been the defensive side of things. I'm just not comfortable with it in this game like that. I think when it's compared to other games like Marvel, SF4, Kof, Tekken, it's less complex.

My opinion don't bash for nothing btw please kthx