The Tier List According to CD Mani and Coach Steve

[The Celebrity]

It doesn't matter who "cares", if you're gonna talk about a character then you'd discuss them in terms of all their variations since, you know, a character = 3 variations. You can discuss how good a characters best variation is all you want and list tier lists by just each characters best variations too if you like but that's not listing them by character, just by variation.

Be that as it may it's not unviable, just not as good. Still a part of the character.

Its only worth considering additional variations if those additional variations contribute positively to a single matchup in the game.

For example, I don't think there is a single matchup in the game that Hat Trick is favored more than Buzzsaw or Tempest, so why would you ever consider it? Same thing with Mystic Ermac, its basically an even further dumb downed version of MoS. If Mystic does better than MoS in a single matchup in the game, then sure, consider it, but if it doesn't.... why? Where would you ever want Warrior Hunter over Hunter/HQT? Never.

Characters like Quan and F/T are good examples of the variation system. Quan has a variation to deal with just about anything, matchups where Summoner has trouble, Sorcerer does reasonably well in. Similarly, matchups where both have trouble, warlock's reversal can help the matchup significantly. Likewise, Ferra/Torr has Lackey to deal with pressure, Vicious to deal with zoning and Ruthless to cover other matchups. These characters should be considered for all 3 variations...

But why oh why would you ever argue on a character like Kung Lao where no matchup in the game benefits from using Hat Trick.

 

[xInfra Deadx]

There is a word that sums up "Arguing for the sake of arguing..."


Nope.

 

[haketh]

Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeah Youph I'm usually with you but in games with things like Variation you don't tier a character like htat

 

[Tokiwartoothxdk]

We Should be judging characters as a whole but Match up wise. Look at every Match up for a character an use the best variation for it.
Raiden for an example will use Thunder god for most of the time but can also switch to Displacer if the Match up calls for it. The character should not be split up by variation for a character tier list only for MU charts. If you want to make a variation tier list then by all means, but the Character Tier list should use the best match-up for every variation to find where they stand on the list. Lets say Raiden(TG) vs Kitana(Mournful) is 4-6 in Kitanas favor, while Raiden(Displacer) makes it 5-5, You would use the Displacer MU in determining the tier and discard the Thunder god MU from the equation.

 

[Youphemism]

You're arguing semantics and nitpicking just for the sake of it, sir.

Summoner Quan Chi only loses to a handful of characters in the game. His kit is extremely good and very powerful for most match ups. There are very few instances where Warlock is even necessary.

According to your logic, Summoner Quan Chi is not one of the best because Warlock is not as good as Summoner. That's not how it works.

Another example: No one uses Warrior, so Predator can't be a top 5 character. You and I both know that between HQT and Hunter, that's just not true.

That is some reaching right there and does not apply to my logic at all. One variation being the best doesn't make the best variation worse, where did I even mention anything like that? At least try and make your examples relevant to my logic.

How is that even close to true? That's not my logic at all. Summoner is a very good variation, Warlock is a good variation, Sorcerer too is a very good variation. Quan Chi is a top tier character because all three of his variations are viable and have great tools. You know, since a character has 3 variations.

Again, not what I'm implying. I actually think Warrior is underexplored and the instant-air overhead you get in that variation is pretty good. There's no doubt in my mind Predator is a top 5 character because all his variations are that good.

Its only worth considering additional variations if those additional variations contribute positively to a single matchup in the game.

For example, I don't think there is a single matchup in the game that Hat Trick is favored more than Buzzsaw or Tempest, so why would you ever consider it? Same thing with Mystic Ermac, its basically an even further dumb downed version of MoS. If Mystic does better than MoS in a single matchup in the game, then sure, consider it, but if it doesn't.... why? Where would you ever want Warrior Hunter over Hunter/HQT? Never.

Characters like Quan and F/T are good examples of the variation system. Quan has a variation to deal with just about anything, matchups where Summoner has trouble, Sorcerer does reasonably well in. Similarly, matchups where both have trouble, warlock's reversal can help the matchup significantly. Likewise, Ferra/Torr has Lackey to deal with pressure, Vicious to deal with zoning and Ruthless to cover other matchups. These characters should be considered for all 3 variations...

But why oh why would you ever argue on a character like Kung Lao where no matchup in the game benefits from using Hat Trick.

If you're not considering all three of a characters variations you're not considering the character as a whole. 1 character = 3 variations. Not one, not two, but three variations. How are people not understanding this? It doesn't matter if they're irrelevant or you wouldn't pick them over the other one or two, it's basic game knowledge that a character has 3 variations. That's all I'm saying.

I'm not saying that you can't talk about one of a character's variations since it's the one that's used most since its the best one, I'm not saying tier lists should be done by every variation rather than just the best one for each character (although that might give us a better idea of the top 5 characters as a whole, who knows?), I'm just saying that if you're talking about one variation you are not talking about the character as a whole. I don't understand how people aren't getting this.

 

[The_Tile]

Put the AI on wake up, and use almost anyone in the cast's 11, or 12 etc. Tell me what happens.

My bad, believe it or not I never really see any Tremors online so I've never really needed to lab it. I just had it in my head that he had that for some reason, maybe I read it somewhere.

Thanks for the info anyway.

 

[Rude]

That is some reaching right there and does not apply to my logic at all. One variation being the best doesn't make the best variation worse, where did I even mention anything like that? At least try and make your examples relevant to my logic.

How is that even close to true? That's not my logic at all. Summoner is a very good variation, Warlock is a good variation, Sorcerer too is a very good variation. Quan Chi is a top tier character because all three of his variations are viable and have great tools. You know, since a character has 3 variations.

Again, not what I'm implying. I actually think Warrior is underexplored and the instant-air overhead you get in that variation is pretty good. There's no doubt in my mind Predator is a top 5 character because all his variations are that good.

If you're not considering all three of a characters variations you're not considering the character as a whole. 1 character = 3 variations. Not one, not two, but three variations. How are people not understanding this? It doesn't matter if they're irrelevant or you wouldn't pick them over the other one or two, it's basic game knowledge that a character has 3 variations. That's all I'm saying.

I'm not saying that you can't talk about one of a character's variations since it's the one that's used most since its the best one, I'm not saying tier lists should be done by every variation rather than just the best one for each character (although that might give us a better idea of the top 5 characters as a whole, who knows?), I'm just saying that if you're talking about one variation you are not talking about the character as a whole. I don't understand how people aren't getting this.

My points are extremely relevant to what you said. That you can't understand is your problem.

It's extremely telling that when everyone but you gets the concept, there's a problem.

It doesn't matter if a character has a weak variation. If they have a variation that can handle most of the cast, then the fact that they have a weaker variation is irrelevant. It simply doesn't matter in tiers.

Go back to the Lao example for a second. I've been told that Tempest Lao has no true losing matcg ups, only even ones. I can't say for certain that that's accurate, but for the sake of argument let's say that It's true. If Tempest Lao beats or goes even with thr cast, who cares about Hat Trick?

Tier lists are match up based in 90% of other fighting games. So if Tempest Lao had the best match up chart in the game, who gives a fuck if Hat Trick doesn't?

Tempest Lao has the best chart in the game in this hypothetical situation, so he's the best character.

How can YOU not understand?

Look, I know you're whole deal is to be a contrarian, much like mine is to be a regulating asshole, but even I've admitted when I was wrong before. Can't you?

It doesn't matter if you talk about all three variations, because the best variation for most match ups is the one relevant to the discussion. There is no way talking about Boneshaper isn't talking about Shinnok as a character, because no other character has a Boneshaper variation. That is intrinsically tied to Shinnok alone so yes, you are talking about Shinnok when you discuss Boneshaper.

 

[Rude]

If you're argument is that every character has three variations, then duh, McFly.

If you're saying that a character with an extremely dominant variation having a weaker variation makes them not elligible for the top 5 or top 10 conversation, then you're flat-out wrong.

Match ups are what tier lists are based off of. Really, this feels more like you going a long way just to downplay Shinnok.

 

[Matador Fiend]

My points are extremely relevant to what you said. That you can't understand is your problem.

It's extremely telling that when everyone but you gets the concept, there's a problem.

It doesn't matter if a character has a weak variation. If they have a variation that can handle most of the cast, then the fact that they have a weaker variation is irrelevant. It simply doesn't matter in tiers.

Go back to the Lao example for a second. I've been told that Tempest Lao has no true losing matcg ups, only even ones. I can't say for certain that that's accurate, but for the sake of argument let's say that It's true. If Tempest Lao beats or goes even with thr cast, who cares about Hat Trick?

Tier lists are match up based in 90% of other fighting games. So if Tempest Lao had the best match up chart in the game, who gives a fuck if Hat Trick doesn't?

Tempest Lao has the best chart in the game in this hypothetical situation, so he's the best character.

How can YOU not understand?

Look, I know you're whole deal is to be a contrarian, much like mine is to be a regulating asshole, but even I've admitted when I was wrong before. Can't you?

It doesn't matter if you talk about all three variations, because the best variation for most match ups is the one relevant to the discussion. There is no way talking about Boneshaper isn't talking about Shinnok as a character, because no other character has a Boneshaper variation. That is intrinsically tied to Shinnok alone so yes, you are talking about Shinnok when you discuss Boneshaper.

youre better off not wasting your time. He always does this type of thing. He used to do it all the time in the Kano forums

 

[Rude]

youre better off not wasting your time. He always does this type of thing. He used to do it all the time in the Kano forums

Oh, he's unbearable on the Kano forums

 

[Youphemism]

My points are extremely relevant to what you said. That you can't understand is your problem.

It's extremely telling that when everyone but you gets the concept, there's a problem.

It doesn't matter if a character has a weak variation. If they have a variation that can handle most of the cast, then the fact that they have a weaker variation is irrelevant. It simply doesn't matter in tiers.

Go back to the Lao example for a second. I've been told that Tempest Lao has no true losing matcg ups, only even ones. I can't say for certain that that's accurate, but for the sake of argument let's say that It's true. If Tempest Lao beats or goes even with thr cast, who cares about Hat Trick?

Tier lists are match up based in 90% of other fighting games. So if Tempest Lao had the best match up chart in the game, who gives a fuck if Hat Trick doesn't?

Tempest Lao has the best chart in the game in this hypothetical situation, so he's the best character.

How can YOU not understand?

Look, I know you're whole deal is to be a contrarian, much like mine is to be a regulating asshole, but even I've admitted when I was wrong before. Can't you?

It doesn't matter if you talk about all three variations, because the best variation for most match ups is the one relevant to the discussion. There is no way talking about Boneshaper isn't talking about Shinnok as a character, because no other character has a Boneshaper variation. That is intrinsically tied to Shinnok alone so yes, you are talking about Shinnok when you discuss Boneshaper.

No they aren't. You suggested I was implying that one variation being not as good makes the best variation worse which isn't what I said at all. You're not understanding what I'm saying and that's where this whole thing is going downhill.

This sentence is where you're wrong:
"Tempest Lao has the best chart in the game in this hypothetical situation, so he's the best character."
because Tempest Lao isn't a character, he's a variation. That was my whole point. When people refer to one variation as the whole character they're not talking about the character which is where people who are just learning more about the game that come onto this site are going to get misinformed.

As for the insinuation that I'm a "contrarian" that's just finding anything to put my argument down which you like to do, even though in this situation I'm correct. You are speaking about a variation and referring to it as a character which is wrong. Or is that incorrect? Is that not a basic fact about MKX mechanics? Or did every variation suddenly become a character? There's a difference between treating variations as characters and referring to them as characters, one is fine the other is flat out wrong. But please, if 3 variations don't equal one character go ahead and explain to me why that's wrong.

Well of course if you're talking about Bone Shaper you're talking about Shinnok, that's not my point. My point is that talking about Bone Shaper as a character isn't right because t's not a character, it's a variation.

If you're argument is that every character has three variations, then duh, McFly.

If you're saying that a character with an extremely dominant variation having a weaker variation makes them not elligible for the top 5 or top 10 conversation, then you're flat-out wrong.

Match ups are what tier lists are based off of. Really, this feels more like you going a long way just to downplay Shinnok.

You say duh yet there's multiple instances of people not getting that...which is what my point is. Somehow this site turns from spreading misinformation to being against the one person who's just pointing it out: that 1 variation isn't the whole character, which as you seem to realise is obviously wrong.

I am not saying that and this misunderstanding is probably why you feel like I'm saying something weird. I'm saying if a character has 3 at least good variations then of course they're top 5 material, if a character has 2 of the best variations in the game and 1 still good variation then yes they can still be considered top 5 or top 10 or whatever you want, but if a character has 1 good variation, 1 ok variation and one variation that's not even worth touching because it's just lower mid tier or worse then I don't feel like they're top 5 material. Kung Lao is obviously top 5 material because he just has great tools in general with one of his variations being one of the best in the game, another one that's pretty good and another that's probably at least upper mid because Lao's overall tools as a character are strong. Quan has three good/great variations, top 5 character. You see what I mean now? Please get what I mean now, I don't want to argue something that's not that hard to get

I'm not trying to downplay Shinnok, I understand Bone Shaper is a great variation. But Shinnok as a character has three variations and the other two don't just stop being a part of the character because one variation is better. Not one mention of Necromancer because noone even bothers to learn about it because they're too busy looking at one variation to understand him as a character. I just don't feel a character with a variation like Necromancer is top 5 but that's my opinion. I could be wrong because as a character he's kind of like Kung Lao in that he has a top 5/10 variation, an A tier variation (Buzz Saw might be higher though) and a variation that's pretty mediocre and Kung Lao is a top 10 character so I'll think about it.

youre better off not wasting your time. He always does this type of thing. He used to do it all the time in the Kano forums

But you wouldn't call out Coach Steve for having the same opinions as me right? Typical.

 

[Rude]

No they aren't. You suggested I was implying that one variation being not as good makes the best variation worse which isn't what I said at all. You're not understanding what I'm saying and that's where this whole thing is going downhill.

This sentence is where you're wrong:
"Tempest Lao has the best chart in the game in this hypothetical situation, so he's the best character."
because Tempest Lao isn't a character, he's a variation. That was my whole point. When people refer to one variation as the whole character they're not talking about the character which is where people who are just learning more about the game that come onto this site are going to get misinformed.

As for the insinuation that I'm a "contrarian" that's just finding anything to put my argument down which you like to do, even though in this situation I'm correct. You are speaking about a variation and referring to it as a character which is wrong. Or is that incorrect? Is that not a basic fact about MKX mechanics? Or did every variation suddenly become a character? There's a difference between treating variations as characters and referring to them as characters, one is fine the other is flat out wrong. But please, if 3 variations don't equal one character go ahead and explain to me why that's wrong.

Well of course if you're talking about Bone Shaper you're talking about Shinnok, that's not my point. My point is that talking about Bone Shaper as a character isn't right because t's not a character, it's a variation.

You say duh yet there's multiple instances of people not getting that...which is what my point is. Somehow this site turns from spreading misinformation to being against the one person who's just pointing it out: that 1 variation isn't the whole character, which as you seem to realise is obviously wrong.

I am not saying that and this misunderstanding is probably why you feel like I'm saying something weird. I'm saying if a character has 3 at least good variations then of course they're top 5 material, if a character has 2 of the best variations in the game and 1 still good variation then yes they can still be considered top 5 or top 10 or whatever you want, but if a character has 1 good variation, 1 ok variation and one variation that's not even worth touching because it's just lower mid tier or worse then I don't feel like they're top 5 material. Kung Lao is obviously top 5 material because he just has great tools in general with one of his variations being one of the best in the game, another one that's pretty good and another that's probably at least upper mid because Lao's overall tools as a character are strong. Quan has three good/great variations, top 5 character. You see what I mean now? Please get what I mean now, I don't want to argue something that's not that hard to get

I'm not trying to downplay Shinnok, I understand Bone Shaper is a great variation. But Shinnok as a character has three variations and the other two don't just stop being a part of the character because one variation is better. Not one mention of Necromancer because noone even bothers to learn about it because they're too busy looking at one variation to understand him as a character. I just don't feel a character with a variation like Necromancer is top 5 but that's my opinion. I could be wrong because as a character he's kind of like Kung Lao in that he has a top 5/10 variation, an A tier variation (Buzz Saw might be higher though) and a variation that's pretty mediocre and Kung Lao is a top 10 character so I'll think about it.

But you wouldn't call out Coach Steve for having the same opinions as me right? Typical.

Wow. All right, the initial comments were to whether or not Boneshaper was a top ten character. You're the one that brought up this trivial distinction and SPECIFICALLY brought up Necromancer as a talking point for why Shinnok wouldn't be top tier.

Slow down, "I didn't say that word for word!" I know. You didn't. You did, however, imply it.

How stupid do you really think people are? If the discussion is about Boneshaper Shinnok, do you REALLY think people who are new that are viewing the site WON'T know that we're not talking about Shinnok?

Presumably they play the game or have at least read enoug to know that variations exist. This talking point of yours makes no sense. None.

You're still arguing semantics for literally no reason.

Tempest Kung Lao IS a character. Why? Because Tempest cannot exist without Kung Lao. This separation you're making between characters and their variations is EXTREMELY arbitrary.

If we're talking about Tempest Kung Lao, we're not talking about Liu Kang. There is NO WAY you can be confused, here. There is no ambiguity.

If you have a variation that has more winning match ups than another character, you deserve a higher place on the tier list than that character.

Example: Jax is viable and very good across all variations. Tempest Lao has more winning match ups than Jax across all three of Jax's variations, so he is a higher tier character.

That Jax has more than two viable variations doesn't matter because he doesn't win more match ups than Tempest. Hat Trick never enters the discussion because It's not relevant to what Lao variation has the most winning match ups.

If Boneshaper Shinnok has more winning match ups than most of the cast except four other characters, then he deserves to be in the Top 5 because his match up chart is better than most characters. Necromancer never enters the equation.

I don't know how else to spell it out for you.

 

[ZigZag]

TL;DR - Stop arguing, Tier lists aren't even that accurate the current way or other ways, The only way it works is listing EVERY single variation individually.

How is this still a thing? You can't tier characters as a whole, you can only tier single variations that's really why all tier lists thus far are almost bollocks, but we have to assume these lists talk about the strongest variations.
You really cannot say someone is mid tier because one variation 10-0s the cast but the other goes 0-10 against the cast, logically you would never pick the bad one and logically You can only play one variation at a time, it's not like I can play a match and half way through round 1 switch variation, I am now locked to that Match up for the rest of my game.

Peoples tier lists are lazy as fuck atm because people aren't taking the time to explore each variation in depth and gather that information, people are simply going from either the strongest variation or just making really big guess work at their lists.

The next real list the community needs for some reference is one that takes in all variations separately, not characters as a whole and not just the strongest variation(s), it's really that simple if you try to define a character as a whole you really are out of your mind because I have no need to know how the characters stands I need to know how each individual variation stands so I can effectively choose what variation is best for what matchup.

IF there is seriously still more arguing after my point then you are all 6 feet up your own opinions assholes, Calm down people, tier lists really aren't that important anyway if you're not playing your damn characters to super human levels.

 

[Eldriken]

Will both of you stop already? Jesus H. Christ on a pogostick. Neither of you are gonna convince the other of what you're trying to explain and the dead horse that you're beating is a pile of flesh that resembles hamburger meat. :|

 

[Rude]

Will both of you stop already? Jesus H. Christ on a pogostick. Neither of you are gonna convince the other of what you're trying to explain and the dead horse that you're beating is a pile of flesh that resembles hamburger meat. :|

Never.

 

[Eldriken]

Never.

 

[Rude]

I'd surely love to bite Emma Stone on the ass, take lockjaw and have her drag me to death.

<3

 

[chrisisnice]

I kind of feel like I am in high school again during the last few posts. You always had that dumb kid in class who held everyone back by arguing the insignificant minutia of concept (and were always wrong). I think we all had one of them.

 

[chrisisnice]

Meanwhile... it makes sense to keep tier list with characters only and match up charts with all variations. It would be great if a match up chart was developed.

 

[Rampage254]

This thread is the best. All the arguing. Man, what a time to be alive.

 

[Qwark28]

This thread is as much fun as trying to get that last little bit of cum out of your dick 20 mins after you're done.

 

[ZigZag]

I'm not done with my point though guys!
one more REALLY important thing I have to say to add to this discussion is that Metal Gear Online is really damn fun and we should all go play it.

 

[THTB]

If one variation is the most optimal in every matchup, then that's how the character is. If the variation carries the character to having some of the best matchup charts among the cast, then the character is likely a top tier character. It doesn't matter if the character has a useless variation.

 

[LEGEND]

It doesn't matter who "cares", if you're gonna talk about a character then you'd discuss them in terms of all their variations since, you know, a character = 3 variations. You can discuss how good a characters best variation is all you want and list tier lists by just each characters best variations too if you like but that's not listing them by character, just by variation.

Be that as it may it's not unviable, just not as good. Still a part of the character.

A single character by YOUR definition doesnt exist in reality. You are making stuff up just to be obnoxious

Stop being a thing

 

[MsMiharo]

Did not think a tier list would spiral into semantics. I am amused but also disgusted, so basically it's like sex.