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Strategy - Sun God The problem that still plagues Sun/Blood god

Hassun

Noob
I feel like I've been saying from that start that Kotal is unsafe and does not want to be in people's faces.
For War God this makes sense (carrying a big sword and all) but I think that people get confused by it in the Blood God and especially the Sun God variation because they think he's a grappler.

To me Kotal is the kind of character who wants to stay just outside of the opponent's range and use his slower, far-reaching pokes to keep them in check. Then when he finds the opportunity he uses his fast forward movement to get in and land a devastating combo and/or throw. If the combo is over and the opponent is not dead he backs off outside of their range again and starts over. This also clearly illustrates why War God has been his best variation from the start. It has exactly the tools you need to play like this.

I understand Qwark wanting him to be a bigger close-range threat but I don't really expect it will happen. I'm also often frustrated by the lack of good high/low mixups and general lack of safety but I suppose that, instead of making it harder for his opponent to block his attacks, they wanted it to be more about either blocking his attacks or getting command grabbed. I also think we're just going to have to accept that Kotal does not get a big combo punish off of frame traps.

That being said I'm not really calling for Sun God buffs again just yet, hell the buffs he received were exactly the buffs I asked for: Making his command throw game more powerful. Sure he has problems both at long range and at very short range (short range problems being lower than the other two variations because of the command grab) but I am just not a fan of releasing too many balance patches too quickly.

I do think Blood God needs something else though. If Sun God has holes in his game, Blood God has a Grand Canyon-level crevasse. I don't think upping his damage helps in this regard because I feel it just makes it more a gimmick variation than a competitive one.
 

Wigy

There it is...
Cassie's does have an aerial hitbox, has a hole in the end of the string you don't even need to do and is much faster.

B1 can be low profiled. I have literally given over 5 examples over 5 times on what is going on. Someone does something - but not punishable, you try to check with a safe mid string. Kotal is the only one who doesn't have a safe mid string and cannot cancel into + frames without being easily interrupted.

His b12 is not used to punish.
All i can say is maybe he was designed that way, he has other amazing tools characters don't have and even then in this situation you've described 80% of the cast doesn't get a good risk/reward.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
I feel like I've been saying from that start that Kotal is unsafe and does not want to be in people's faces.
For War God this makes sense (carrying a big sword and all) but I think that people get confused by it in the Blood God and especially the Sun God variation because they think he's a grappler.

To me Kotal is the kind of character who wants to stay just outside of the opponent's range and use his slower, far-reaching pokes to keep them in check. Then when he finds the opportunity he uses his fast forward movement to get in and land a devastating combo and/or throw. If the combo is over and the opponent is not dead he backs off outside of their range again and starts over. This also clearly illustrates why War God has been his best variation from the start. It has exactly the tools you need to play like this.

I understand Qwark wanting him to be a bigger close-range threat but I don't really expect it will happen. I'm also often frustrated by the lack of good high/low mixups and general lack of safety but I suppose that, instead of making it harder for his opponent to block his attacks, they wanted it to be more about either blocking his attacks or getting command grabbed. I also think we're just going to have to accept that b1 is what we are getting and that Kotal does not get a big combo punish off of frame traps.

That being said I'm not really calling for Sun God buffs again just yet, hell the buffs he received were exactly the buffs I asked for: Making his command throw game more powerful. Sure he has problems both at long range and at very short range (short range problems being lower than the other two variations because of the command grab) but I am just not a fan of releasing too many balance patches too quickly.

I do think Blood God needs something else though. If Sun God has holes in his game, Blood God has a Grand Canyon-level crevasse. I don't think upping his damage helps in this regard because I feel it just makes it more a gimmick variation than a competitive one.
Regarding the buffs, I'm really afraid that NRS is sticking to their "dedicated variation" gimmick in the sense that if a variation has X as a variation defining tool and Y as a general one, they're gonna buff X and ignore Y.

This happened in IGAU with Joker, the character had terrible holes in his gameplan yet they buffed the most useless trait in the game, his parry which due to the game's engine was almost absolutely useless.

With this new patch they didn't fix the fundamental problems of Blood god, merely added a variation defining buff in the form of obsidian totem, buffed sun choke for sun god ( thank you paulo ) and then buffed soul scorch which is almost useless in any way shape or form by giving it 10 less recovery frames which made no sense whatsoever because that's not the problem that move has. His whole "levels" shtick is a huge gimmick because spending those levels is simply not worth it.

I honestly consider Blood god a variation that never should have made it into the game, it's incomplete by a huge margin.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
All i can say is maybe he was designed that way, he has other amazing tools characters don't have and even then in this situation you've described 80% of the cast doesn't get a good risk/reward.
But I have described the rest of the cast. I have stated that 90% of the other characters has a safe mid hitting string to check people when they're - and it's absolutely true. Other characters can do a most of the time safe mid string which has these properties

Hit confirmable
Cancellable into main special some even being very +
3 hit

If it's not cancellable it usually deals upwards of 15% damage.

Yet Kotal is the only person who risks a full combo punish just for the same courtesy to apply to him as well

disclaimer, this is to TL;DR what I've already said
 

Wigy

There it is...
But I have described the rest of the cast. I have stated that 90% of the other characters has a safe mid hitting string to check people when they're - and it's absolutely true. Other characters can do a most of the time safe mid string which has these properties

Hit confirmable
Cancellable into main special some even being very +
3 hit

If it's not cancellable it usually deals upwards of 15% damage.

Yet Kotal is the only person who risks a full combo punish just for the same courtesy to apply to him as well

disclaimer, this is to TL;DR what I've already said
Yeah having a think i see what you mean, i haven't looked at kotals frame data so can't be sure.

Considering how good his tools are for getting in on somebody though, not sure this is the buff he'd need. War god matchup is fucking horrible with him getting in on you for free half the game with that ridiculous JIP and the f1b2 with a 3/4 screen hitbox lol.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
Yeah having a think i see what you mean, i haven't looked at kotals frame data so can't be sure.

Considering how good his tools are for getting in on somebody though, not sure this is the buff he'd need. War god matchup is fucking horrible with him getting in on you for free half the game with that ridiculous JIP and the f1b2 with a 3/4 screen hitbox lol.
His tools are not for him to get in, he's supposed to catch you via footsies. His "pressure" outside of war god is a bill.

That's why I suggested B12 being -4 exclusively for sun and blood god. These variations aren't good far away nor up close, just the middle. Up close he has no mid hitting string to use.
 

chief713

Vertebral Subluxationist
I picked up SG about 2 weeks ago and I have good success using D1 to check people. I guess, coming from Goro who has NO viable mid starters at all and HAS to use D1/D3 to get anything started and use meter to get any meaningful damage, it just doesn't seem so bad.

That being said, I do understand the frustration of not being able to do B12 or B122 safely, since it starts most of KK's offense and are cornerstones of his game. As such, I'd be completely fine with B12 being -4 or -5. Wouldn't make SG OP, just give him a bit better pressure.

As far as tangible strats that we have right now, instead of going for B1 at +3, go for B32. It's 3 frames slower so you're more likely to get poked out if they're going for anything faster than 10 frames but it's a mid combo and it's safe at -3. And Kotal at -3 is scary with a 6f poke. It means the opp, unless it's one of the few that has a 9f or better starter, HAS to do a D1/D3 to check him. If not, KK gets his own D1 and it's his turn again. What's awesome about that, though, is that since you KNOW they have to check you with D1/D3 (and have conditioned them to do so) you can just block and then it's your turn again regardless.

And once you get them conditioned to block the D1, that's when you can go into command grab or just raw B34. No, it's not cancellable but it's safe. So, a middle of the road solution.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
I picked up SG about 2 weeks ago and I have good success using D1 to check people. I guess, coming from Goro who has NO viable mid starters at all and HAS to use D1/D3 to get anything started and use meter to get any meaningful damage, it just doesn't seem so bad.

That being said, I do understand the frustration of not being able to do B12 or B122 safely, since it starts most of KK's offense and are cornerstones of his game. As such, I'd be completely fine with B12 being -4 or -5. Wouldn't make SG OP, just give him a bit better pressure.

As far as tangible strats that we have right now, instead of going for B1 at +3, go for B32. It's 3 frames slower so you're more likely to get poked out if they're going for anything faster than 10 frames but it's a mid combo and it's safe at -3. And Kotal at -3 is scary with a 6f poke. It means the opp, unless it's one of the few that has a 9f or better starter, HAS to do a D1/D3 to check him. If not, KK gets his own D1 and it's his turn again. What's awesome about that, though, is that since you KNOW they have to check you with D1/D3 (and have conditioned them to do so) you can just block and then it's your turn again regardless.

And once you get them conditioned to block the D1, that's when you can go into command grab or just raw B34. No, it's not cancellable but it's safe. So, a middle of the road solution.
Honestly, if you're going for a 13f move, you might as well go for the command grab.
 

chief713

Vertebral Subluxationist
I disagree. You miss command grab and you're -49. They block B34 and you're -3 and can possibly continue to apply pressure. And if you hit, they both do similar damage.