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Strategy - Sun God The problem that still plagues Sun/Blood god

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
So, if you've seen my posts in this sub-section you know I spend 90% of my time playing Sun god.

This variation I think is pretty decent. I don't know exactly where he lies on the tier list but I think he's at minimum solid mid.

But there is a problem regarding how - he is and the holes he has. KK has a lot of holes in his strings and they are almost all very -. An opponent can very easily OS an armoured move and hit you as soon as there is a gap or you're - enough and you might say that there's no need to do these gimmicks so often.

You kind of have to. Let me put it in a situation like this. You have tempest Lao and he does an orbiting hat on block and he's -3. The mixup there is whether he will respect that -3 and block or poke, jump, backdash and armour.

If he pokes, B1 will beat him
If he jumps, B1 will anti air him and you can convert into a full combo
If he backdashes, B12 will catch him
If he armours, you will naturally lose

Seems pretty solid, right? But what if he does poke or does a standing attack? B1 will beat it.

And you will get nothing out of it. There is a huge commitment that KK has to take if he wants to punish people for not respecting frametraps. B1 by itself is not a punish for pressing buttons when every other character gets a full combo while your read on them pressing a button can be full combo punished in a situation where only armour should theoretically beat you. If you want to follow B1 up, everything is unsafe, if you do B122/4 and the opponent has blocked, you just killed yourself for trying to check your opponent with a meaningful punish over 4% of damage.

You could use 114, right? Except it's high, the range is horrible and it's currently bug to whiff the first 2 hits ( high, mid ) on pretty much half the cast. Not only that but its nature of being high leaves it meh. 212 is also a high starter and doesn't lead to more than 11% nor a tick throw setup so your opponent has nothing to fear from this grappler. F1 suffers from the same problem, it's also way too punishable if you go any further down the string tree.

War god doesn't have this problem because the overhead/low swords are fast enough to be true blockstrings off of B122 and safe vs 90% of the cast.

I don't know if you can change frame data specifically for variations but I would really like to see B12 made -4 in Sun god. You can't tick throw past that point, your followups if you don't hit confirm will be punishable gimmicks and a good player will be able to hit confirm B12 into air throw so as to at least get a combo for someone pressing buttons when they're -. I feel this is the fairest way to change this problem of his without asking for something ridiculous like F1B2 being safe.

Because right now, if you're - right next to kotal, he has to take major risks to capitalise on it, since B1 string series into X/Y specials are all punishable on block or armourable/pokeable on reaction, F1 series are all unsafe and 114 is high.

TLDR; Kotal can't check you on minor - frames because if you block he dies for trying to take advantage of + frames. If his complete gimmick of up close + frames issue is fixed I think this will be a very fair and balanced character. I REALLY hope this doesn't get viewed as "Oh well, you got buffed in the last patch, stop complaining" in regards to such a glaring flaw of this character.

Since this thread explains some KK issues, I'd like to point out a bug in which Kung lao is able to crouch block the Sun choke, having it whiff on certain distances that the rest of the cast would get hit by.

@Hidan
@UltraDavid
@KeyserSoze
@Mr Aqua
@Crayraven
@Shark Tank
@BigMilk
@SEV
@D. R.
 
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Kung lao doesn't have ex spin after hat spin on block, it needs 3 sec to respawn. He does have access to ex teleport though if that is what you meant.
 

GrandMasterson

The Netherrealm beckons
I think Sun God's biggest problems are still the same ones he had since launch, number 1 being command grab recovery. I could understand the current grab recovery if it was only like that at level 3, but level 1 command grab has the exact same risks as level 2 and 3. Why? There are a bunch of little problems that sun god suffers from, just one example being that command grab doesn't combo after 114 like air grab does. Why the hell not? It doesn't help that sunlight recovery and his only-good-if-EX parry are lacking as well.

I applaud you for sticking with this variation this long because I have absolutely no idea what to do with it.
 

Klesk_1

RIP Grundy
I play sun god 65/70% of the time and i don't think his problems are here. Good on you for sticking at it

p.s. don't forget the ferra whiff glitch. that sh1t is stupid.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
I think Sun God's biggest problems are still the same ones he had since launch, number 1 being command grab recovery. I could understand the current grab recovery if it was only like that at level 3, but level 1 command grab has the exact same risks as level 2 and 3. Why? There are a bunch of little problems that sun god suffers from, just one example being that command grab doesn't combo after 114 like air grab does. Why the hell not? It doesn't help that sunlight recovery and his only-good-if-EX parry are lacking as well.

I applaud you for sticking with this variation this long because I have absolutely no idea what to do with it.
If you whiff a command grab you should be punished. 114 is not a punisher, why do 114 instead of f1b2 which is your go-to meterless punisher?
I play sun god 65/70% of the time and i don't think his problems are here. Good on you for sticking at it

p.s. don't forget the ferra whiff glitch. that sh1t is stupid.
So you guys think the fact that he can't punish his opponent when they press buttons at - isn't as big a problem as other things?
 

Braindead

I want Kronika to step on my face
I think the best thing you can go for right now is B1 xx Command Grab on block OS. If it hits you're at +5 I think, and if it's blocked you get the command grab, even though it might be reactable to neutral jump the command grab after a blocked B1, so you might want to mix it with B14. But yeah the risk/reward is not good.

Edit: B1 is +14 on hit, so that's nice. I was thinking of F1, which is +6 on hit.
 
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GrandMasterson

The Netherrealm beckons
If you whiff a command grab you should be punished.
But this is a command grab with 3 different levels to it. Why should the level 1 command grab be punished just as harshly as the level 3 grab?
114 is not a punisher, why do 114 instead of f1b2 which is your go-to meterless punisher?
I wasn't referring to punishing with 114, but at least 114 has an OS when cancelled into air grab. If they block 114 air grab, you're at + frames. If they stop blocking and get hit by the 4, they're going to eat the air grab.
So you guys think the fact that he can't punish his opponent when they press buttons at - isn't as big a problem as other things?
Keep in mind that Kotal has some of the best pokes in the game, especially his D1. In fact, his D1 is probably the best in the game. It's a 6 frame startup, only -5 on block, and +14 on hit. If your opponent is pressing buttons while negative in your face, just D1 them until they get the message.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
But this is a command grab with 3 different levels to it. Why should the level 1 command grab be punished just as harshly as the level 3 grab?
This topic is because this character cannot do almost anything meaningful when he's -. I think that takes priority over whiffing random command grabs and being whiff punished for them, this isn't the point of discussion here.


I wasn't referring to punishing with 114, but at least 114 has an OS when cancelled into air grab. If they block 114 air grab, you're at + frames. If they stop blocking and get hit by the 4, they're going to eat the air grab.
114 is used off of a jump in or a situation where they're sure to block it, F1B2 is used for punishes. How is 114 not comboing into sun choke a problem? You can OS ex air throw on hit and normal air throw on whiff.

Keep in mind that Kotal has some of the best pokes in the game, especially his D1. In fact, his D1 is probably the best in the game. It's a 6 frame startup, only -5 on block, and +14 on hit. If your opponent is pressing buttons while negative in your face, just D1 them until they get the message.
This isn't 2011 man... This meta is 4 years old. You're going to punish someone who presses buttons at -3 and more for 2% and +13 when the rest of the cast bar none threaten with full combo punishes. This doesn't work against good competition, if someone like KL is pressing buttons after a - on block move and you can only punish with 2% then you're fucked, this is THE #1 problem of sun god.

Poking when you're at + frames when you have perfectly functioning mids is as horrible, why would you choose to press d1 and put yourself at -5, even in MK9 this meta faded away fast because it was from times where people didn't know how to play the game. If you're sure they're going to get hit then you'll do b1 but the point of this thread is that you are UNSAFE for trying to capitalise off of your + frames whenever someone does anything.

You shouldn't be punished for trying to enforce a basic frametrap.
 

smokey

EX Ovi should launch
I know this is supposed to be a whining/buff thread but can you not just like, not use b1 in those situations? Armour will blow you up regardless so if you are gonna push a button why push the one that now has a whole thread talking about its problems?
Complaining is one thing but saying "why cant i use punishable moves without getting punished?" isnt something that needs a thread, you could have listed like 20 other moves that you cant use in this situation, but instead you should just not use them, and if you are going to then accept the risk you take!
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
I know this is supposed to be a whining/buff thread but can you not just like, not use b1 in those situations? Armour will blow you up regardless so if you are gonna push a button why push the one that now has a whole thread talking about its problems?
Complaining is one thing but saying "why cant i use punishable moves without getting punished?" isnt something that needs a thread, you could have listed like 20 other moves that you cant use in this situation, but instead you should just not use them, and if you are going to then accept the risk you take!
You didn't read my post. I mentioned 114, 212, f1b2, b1, b122, b14. All these are his strings for counterpoking.

So you're telling me I shouldn't press a button once I'm + because armour will blow me up.

The button itself is not unsafe. The string afterwards is and you cannot hitconfirm B1 by itself. IF your opponent is pressing buttons you CAN'T punish them for it with hitconfirming and you have to throw out a punishable string, this is like saying Smoke's B23 was -10 after a D3/D4 on hit.

lol " why can't I check my opponent with more than 4% damage if he keeps pressing buttons after my frametraps" this is what I'm asking.

Please re-read the thread, you didn't understand it.
 

MsMiharo

Kuff Bano
Qwark is 100% right. I've been doing d1/b1. If it hits I go for d1/b1 again and tick throw but that's not a solid strategy at all. Just a desperate way to try to get something out of it.
 

Temjiin

www.mkxframedata.com
Reptile IIRC can go for an overhead. And even if he does, there's a reason he's one of the worst.
And Takeda? Ermac? Kenshi? Quan? Probably a lot of characters. I don't see why D1 is such a bad option. You're -3 and Lao is pretty fast.

You want him to stop pressing buttons? You D1 him and get to be +14. Or you go for your own pressure and risk him poking you and being +15. The meta is a little different in MKX with pokes as they are ridiculous on hit now. What do you actually want from this -3 scenario?
 

smokey

EX Ovi should launch
You didn't read my post. I mentioned 114, 212, f1b2, b1, b122, b14. All these are his strings for counterpoking.

So you're telling me I shouldn't press a button once I'm + because armour will blow me up.

The button itself is not unsafe. The string afterwards is and you cannot hitconfirm B1 by itself. IF your opponent is pressing buttons you CAN'T punish them for it with hitconfirming and you have to throw out a punishable string, this is like saying Smoke's B23 was -10 after a D3/D4 on hit.

lol " why can't I check my opponent with more than 4% damage if he keeps pressing buttons after my frametraps" this is what I'm asking.

Please re-read the thread, you didn't understand it.
I understood what you mean and you are saying "if my opponent is -3 and i dial an unsafe string, he can block and punish"

I dont know what options kotal kahn gets in the situation so I cant offer a solution to your problem, but the problem is you are expecting too much from a counterpoke. I dont know how many members of the cast you think get away with throwing out punishable strings on block but this isnt a kotal kahn specific thing. You have more options at +3 than just b1 for 4% or b1 string to get punished, obviously you know that, im not sure what you hope to gain from +3 though... you can check him with a fast poke or armoured move if you think hes gonna push buttons, backdash and whiff punish, go for a throw or a crossup or something if hes holding block a lot? These counterpoke situations arent set in stone, you are overcommitting.
 

Temjiin

www.mkxframedata.com
I really don't get the point of this thread... hat spin is good at -3 but what do you want to do? Takes a frame to exit block to start with and you want to safely stop him from pressing buttons but with more reward than a D1?

So you basically want a safe 8 frame mid starting string because D1 is too 2011?
I think most characters would like one of those...

This isn't a Sun God thing, it's a Tempest thing.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
And Takeda? Ermac? Kenshi? Quan? Probably a lot of characters. I don't see why D1 is such a bad option. You're -3 and Lao is pretty fast.

You want him to stop pressing buttons? You D1 him and get to be +14. Or you go for your own pressure and risk him poking you and being +15. The meta is a little different in MKX with pokes as they are ridiculous on hit now. What do you actually want from this -3 scenario?
I don't know why you're even mentioning those characters.

Takeda is a space control character with tons of range and is supposed to play from a midscreen distance, there's a reason he has slow pokes. Quan's B3 is a safe 10f low so I don't know where you got him from. Ermac has a hitconfirmable safe move in B12, Kenshi the same in 32, both of these chars moves are 11 framers, safe against all but Cassie and they're not up close pressure characters. Kotal is, his B1 is the exact same frames as the above 2 and the difference is that he cannot capitalise off of almost outright punishable move frames with ANYTHING other than a D1/D3 because his B1 follow ups are all unsafe.

Even the 3 zoners you mentioned can capitalise better off of advantage than ironically a rushdown grappler. And no, lao isn't fast when his fastest poke is 9f and standing jab at 8 when Kotal has 6f downpokes and a 10 and 11 frame mid.

So, your point is?
I understood what you mean and you are saying "if my opponent is -3 and i dial an unsafe string, he can block and punish"

I dont know what options kotal kahn gets in the situation so I cant offer a solution to your problem, but the problem is you are expecting too much from a counterpoke. I dont know how many members of the cast you think get away with throwing out punishable strings on block but this isnt a kotal kahn specific thing. You have more options at +3 than just b1 for 4% or b1 string to get punished, obviously you know that, im not sure what you hope to gain from +3 though... you can check him with a fast poke or armoured move if you think hes gonna push buttons, backdash and whiff punish, go for a throw or a crossup or something if hes holding block a lot? These counterpoke situations arent set in stone, you are overcommitting.
How are you telling me that I'm whining and complaining when you yourself said you don't know Kotal's options then continue to tell me what I should be doing?

B1 is not a counterpoke. B1 is a 10f mid normal that by itself is -3. The followups are b12 at -14 and b122 at -10. The problem is that B1 by itself is 4% damage when 90% of the game's chars have string counterpokes that are cancellable, hit confirmable and give a full combo on hit or at least 15%. Kotal is the only grappler I've ever seen that can't make use of + frames when literally any other can.

I'm not complaining that I can't throw out punishable strings, I'm complaining that I can't throw out anything else that is meaningful because you have to be a fucking idiot to get discouraged by a D1 into a when a character allows you to press buttons non stop regardless of frame advantage or disadvantage because the only meaningful thing he could do is punishable. You're at a risk/reward ADVANTAGE if kotal is + in your face, that's not how fighting games work.

And after you do the poke on hit, 114 doesn't reach because it's a high into a bugged mid. You're at EXACTLY the same point and the only difference is that you can now just-frame a command grab or D1 again.

I really don't get the point of this thread... hat spin is good at -3 but what do you want to do? Takes a frame to exit block to start with and you want to safely stop him from pressing buttons but with more reward than a D1?

So you basically want a safe 8 frame mid starting string because D1 is too 2011?
I think most characters would like one of those...

This isn't a Sun God thing, it's a Tempest thing.
This isn't a tempest exclusive thing... unless only tempest can be - in Kotal's face...

This char literally doesn't have a safe mid string.
 
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Qwark28

Joker waiting room
Does what?!!
On KL specifically, Sun choke randomly whiffs, we saw it happen multiple times with Aris.

On F/T specifically, 114 air throw whiffs.

On Mileena, Cassie, Subzero, Scorpion, Kitana, Reptile, Jacquie, Kano and more everything but 4 of 114 completely whiff.
 

Hidan

Where the hell is Reiko's wheel kick
On KL specifically, Sun choke randomly whiffs, we saw it happen multiple times with Aris.

On F/T specifically, 114 air throw whiffs.

On Mileena, Cassie, Subzero, Scorpion, Kitana, Reptile, Jacquie, Kano and more everything but 4 of 114 completely whiff.
I propose F1 & F2 city
 

Temjiin

www.mkxframedata.com
It takes a frame to exit block. He is essentially -2.

You think that you pressing D1 is bad, when it: A. stops them pressing buttons and puts you +14, B. lets you start pressing buttons and C. is safe. Nothing 2011 about it.

@A F0xy Grampa what is your opinion?
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
It takes a frame to exit block. He is essentially -2.

He can backdash 99% of followups from most of the cast or jump back 2 (if that's the ridiculous hat one) to wreck your pressure.

Conversely, you think that you pressing D1 is bad, when it A. stops them pressing buttons and B. lets you start pressing buttons.

You want an 8F launcher to pressure with? Or a safe string? Not gonna happen.
Yet again, I'm not talking about - frames exclusively to kung lao.

ANY move that is up to -6 you CANNOT check with anything other than down pokes because your mids are full combo punishable WITHOUT the ability to hit confirm. 90% of this game's cast has safe, hitconfirmable, either cancellable or high damage strings that they can check anything that they cannot outright poke on block.

I'm not talking about backdash, I said that he can get out using it and that's perfectly fine, that is not relevant whatsoever. Jump back 2 has pre-jump frames and takes 7 frames or so to come out, no he cannot jumpback 2 at -2 or any other - frames. Why do you keep posting fake information as arguement just for me to blow them up?

It's a 10f, after B1 there is NO more pressure since you're -.

Man, I'm not even gonna bother replying anymore if you're not reading my posts and understanding them, you keep mentioning Kung lao when it's the third time I said this isn't just about him, why D1 alone is a bad option when 90% of the cast can do the basic checking with a mid string and every other scenario under which you can escape.