Strategy - Sun God The problem that still plagues Sun/Blood god

[Rude]

I understand that you want your character to do something that other characters can.

However, i don't necessarily agree. I think using your d1 is fine. For one thing, it's safe. For another, no one is punishing a six frame d1 on reaction anyway.

Once they respect that option, you can do anything you want. Something i learned from listening to guys like Slips is that you have an unpunishable option, then you have a great conditioning tool.

Now i know that Kotal's strings have weaknesses. You've laid that out. But it doesn't matter. Once your d1 hits, you go into pressure or you throw. Or you can do a tick throw set up that starts your Sun God levels.

It's definitely a more honest way to play, but it's what you have. I know that characters can backdash and armor some of your options, but thats just where making reads come in.

People complain about D'Vorah and Raiden because you don't need to play anything other than Swarm Queen or Thunder God to win.

That doesn't seem to be the case with Sun God, and that's fine. It's why you have other variations to choose from. If you don't want to do that, then you should probably play a top 5 character.

Personally, i think a combination of War God and Sun God is fine.

You want to say that it's old meta to use a poke, but it's not. Players still use pokes to initiate offense off + frames. Plus, this is the tool your character has. Use it. Wishing for stuff you won't necessarily get is the opposite of productive.

 

[Temjiin]

I understand that you want your character to do something that other characters can.

However, i don't necessarily agree. I think using your d1 is fine. For one thing, it's safe. For another, no one is punishing a six frame d1 on reaction anyway.

Once they respect that option, you can do anything you want. Something i learned from listening to guys like Slips is that you have an unpunishable option, then you have a great conditioning tool.

Now i know that Kotal's strings have weaknesses. You've laid that out. But it doesn't matter. Once your d1 hits, you go into pressure or you throw. Or you can do a tick throw set up that starts your Sun God levels.

It's definitely a more honest way to play, but it's what you have. I know that characters can backdash and armor some of your options, but thats just where making reads come in.

People complain about D'Vorah and Raiden because you don't need to play anything other than Swarm Queen or Thunder God to win.

That doesn't seem to be the case with Sun God, and that's fine. It's why you have other variations to choose from. If you don't want to do that, then you should probably play a top 5 character.

Personally, i think a combination of War God and Sun God is fine.

You want to say that it's old meta to use a poke, but it's not. Players still use pokes to initiate offense off + frames. Plus, this is the tool your character has. Use it. Wishing for stuff you won't necessarily get is the opposite of productive.

100% what I've been saying. D1 is 2011 though.

 

[SneakyTortoise]

@SneakyTortoise

Half of these posts are essays. Can I get a TLDR version of the whole thing?

 

[Qwark28]

I understand that you want your character to do something that other characters can.

However, i don't necessarily agree. I think using your d1 is fine. For one thing, it's safe. For another, no one is punishing a six frame d1 on reaction anyway.

Once they respect that option, you can do anything you want. Something i learned from listening to guys like Slips is that you have an unpunishable option, then you have a great conditioning tool.

Now i know that Kotal's strings have weaknesses. You've laid that out. But it doesn't matter. Once your d1 hits, you go into pressure or you throw. Or you can do a tick throw set up that starts your Sun God levels.

It's definitely a more honest way to play, but it's what you have. I know that characters can backdash and armor some of your options, but thats just where making reads come in.

People complain about D'Vorah and Raiden because you don't need to play anything other than Swarm Queen or Thunder God to win.

That doesn't seem to be the case with Sun God, and that's fine. It's why you have other variations to choose from. If you don't want to do that, then you should probably play a top 5 character.

Personally, i think a combination of War God and Sun God is fine.

You want to say that it's old meta to use a poke, but it's not. Players still use pokes to initiate offense off + frames. Plus, this is the tool your character has. Use it. Wishing for stuff you won't necessarily get is the opposite of productive.

See, war god has everything. With war god I can just do b122 into uninterruptible oh/low sword and be safe against everyone but 3 maybe characters. But I don't want to play to war god. I don't want just one variation to be viable, I want every one that can be to be.

My scene is filled with top tier characters, I'm the only person in my entire scene that doesn't play a top 10 character and the only one that has to face terrible matchups every time I play casuals. I think Sun god is a very nice character with some flaws that make me go to war god and that's perfectly fine because sometimes you have to switch, that's what variations are for.

But I don't think a grappler should struggle in this area of all. I can understand Goro having armour out the ass, I can understand a certain portion of the cast jumping in on me for free and I can understand people opening me up with mixups whereas I have to play footsies and I'm ok with that. This department of weakness though is completely baffling to me.

And that's the point, I already play a super honest character, I get my damage off of risky command grabs and footsies, I constantly have to outsmart my opponent because there are very few characters where I actually have an advantage, at least from the char pool my scene plays. I just didn't think I'd be throwing rocks in the counterpoke department instead of the boulders everyone else has. And I've state that backdashing or armouring I find just fine, that's universal. What the people who are opposing this buff don't get is that war god already has his mids be safe, I'm just asking for what the clearly superior variation already has be given to Sun god as well, which clearly struggles.

I didn't make this thread to whine and was quickly frustrated by people not actually reading what I had to say and making general statements. I made this thread to point out this weakness and tagged KK players to post their opinions and thoughts, as I do in every KK thread I make.

My opinion is that he should receive a variation specific fix for his mid, even if unsafe, just let me use my skill to hitconfirm and if not let it be -100. Whether that should happen or will happen is not for me to decide, that's strictly my opinion but apparently this thread was taken as a "this is what he needs, do it paulo".

And I can appreciate a thought out post that is up to date with all the information provided, sadly it is at the beginning of the third page though.

 

[Temjiin]

See, war god has everything. With war god I can just do b122 into uninterruptible oh/low sword and be safe against everyone but 3 maybe characters. But I don't want to play to war god. I don't want just one variation to be viable, I want every one that can be to be.

My scene is filled with top tier characters, I'm the only person in my entire scene that doesn't play a top 10 character and the only one that has to face terrible matchups every time I play casuals. I think Sun god is a very nice character with some flaws that make me go to war god and that's perfectly fine because sometimes you have to switch, that's what variations are for.

But I don't think a grappler should struggle in this area of all. I can understand Goro having armour out the ass, I can understand a certain portion of the cast jumping in on me for free and I can understand people opening me up with mixups whereas I have to play footsies and I'm ok with that. This department of weakness though is completely baffling to me.

And that's the point, I already play a super honest character, I get my damage off of risky command grabs and footsies, I constantly have to outsmart my opponent because there are very few characters where I actually have an advantage, at least from the char pool my scene plays. I just didn't think I'd be throwing rocks in the counterpoke department instead of the boulders everyone else has. And I've state that backdashing or armouring I find just fine, that's universal.

I didn't make this thread to whine and was quickly frustrated by people not actually reading what I had to say and making general statements. I made this thread to point out this weakness and tagged KK players to post their opinions and thoughts, as I do in every KK thread I make.

My opinion is that he should receive a variation specific fix for his mid, even if unsafe, just let me use my skill to hitconfirm and if not let it be -100. Whether that should happen or will happen is not for me to decide, that's strictly my opinion but apparently this thread was taken as a "this is what he needs, do it paulo".

And I can appreciate a thought out post that is up to date with all the information provided, sadly it is at the beginning of the third page though.

The problem with the post is that even though it's your opinion, you generally post with the formal tone that denotes it should be fact. Like below.

Quan's B3 is a safe 10f low so I don't know where you got him from.

If you call -13 safe then sure.

Ermac has a hitconfirmable safe move in B12, Kenshi the same in 32,

No, these would eat 40%. Do the math.

Then statements like

I mentioned all my options, I've been playing this variation exclusively with some of the best players in europe offline for almost 2 fucking months with it, I think I know my options, I posted every single one in the OP which none of you apparently read.

I mean no disrespect intended but who's to say you're even good? Let alone able to work this character out in 9 weeks? Playing against the best players doesn't mean you have flushed him out, it might just mean you're bad.

Either way nobody should be saying after 9 weeks "I have no options" let alone saying that a character's fastest safest move with very good hit advantage is 2011 meta.

 

[ValeDJ]

Quality posts all.

I've left Sun God a little bit in the sand in exchange for BG these last few weeks, I just find the pressure too hot for most of the roster when they least expect it. Mainly for the laughs tbh.

Just to confirm on KK's SG...Sub's ex-slide connected after a hit confirm of d1 xx db2 command grab on block...this was against top AI, and to be honest didn't happen again after attempting to get the AI to do it over again. Was surprised it connected...but I guess with having one of the best special punishes in the game, it happens.

Totally loving the work Quark and co...top stuff.

 

[Rude]

The problem with the post is that even though it's your opinion, you generally post with the formal tone that denotes it should be fact. Like below.



If you call -13 safe then sure.



No, these would eat 40%. Do the math.

Then statements like



I mean no disrespect intended but who's to say you're even good? Let alone able to work this character out in 9 weeks? Playing against the best players doesn't mean you have flushed him out, it might just mean you're bad.

Either way nobody should be saying after 9 weeks "I have no options" let alone saying that a character's fastest safest move with very good hit advantage is 2011 meta.

Oh. Shit.

Damn, dude. That's fucked up.

 

[Rude]

See, war god has everything. With war god I can just do b122 into uninterruptible oh/low sword and be safe against everyone but 3 maybe characters. But I don't want to play to war god. I don't want just one variation to be viable, I want every one that can be to be.

My scene is filled with top tier characters, I'm the only person in my entire scene that doesn't play a top 10 character and the only one that has to face terrible matchups every time I play casuals. I think Sun god is a very nice character with some flaws that make me go to war god and that's perfectly fine because sometimes you have to switch, that's what variations are for.

But I don't think a grappler should struggle in this area of all. I can understand Goro having armour out the ass, I can understand a certain portion of the cast jumping in on me for free and I can understand people opening me up with mixups whereas I have to play footsies and I'm ok with that. This department of weakness though is completely baffling to me.

And that's the point, I already play a super honest character, I get my damage off of risky command grabs and footsies, I constantly have to outsmart my opponent because there are very few characters where I actually have an advantage, at least from the char pool my scene plays. I just didn't think I'd be throwing rocks in the counterpoke department instead of the boulders everyone else has. And I've state that backdashing or armouring I find just fine, that's universal. What the people who are opposing this buff don't get is that war god already has his mids be safe, I'm just asking for what the clearly superior variation already has be given to Sun god as well, which clearly struggles.

I didn't make this thread to whine and was quickly frustrated by people not actually reading what I had to say and making general statements. I made this thread to point out this weakness and tagged KK players to post their opinions and thoughts, as I do in every KK thread I make.

My opinion is that he should receive a variation specific fix for his mid, even if unsafe, just let me use my skill to hitconfirm and if not let it be -100. Whether that should happen or will happen is not for me to decide, that's strictly my opinion but apparently this thread was taken as a "this is what he needs, do it paulo".

And I can appreciate a thought out post that is up to date with all the information provided, sadly it is at the beginning of the third page though.

Look, i mained Cyber Kano for the first month and change of the game's life. I understand the frustrations of playing an honest, mid tier character. You have to work 10x harder for mediocre reward than the top ten do for a big reward.

It sucks. It's especially frustrating when you know your character would be really good in any other game besides this one.

 

[mattnin]

These issues also affect Blood God. Thanks for bringing them up Qwark.

I hate it when people just say, well if you don't like it, just play War God.... I guess if we REALLY didn't like it, just play Kung Lao. Heck, everyone just play Lao.... :-/

 

[ValeDJ]

Yea, agreed. I love Kotal. Guess its just a few of us that want to put in the extra shift work which I find...much more rewarding.

 

[Rude]

These issues also affect Blood God. Thanks for bringing them up Qwark.

I hate it when people just say, well if you don't like it, just play War God.... I guess if we REALLY didn't like it, just play Kung Lao. Heck, everyone just play Lao.... :-/

The variation system really benefits the low and mid tiers more, because you have more reasons to use them than the top tier.

You don't necessarily have to play War God exclusively, but having it in your pocket can't hurt.

 

[BillStickers]

100% what I've been saying. D1 is 2011 though.

Fucking 15ers

 

[Qwark28]

The problem with the post is that even though it's your opinion, you generally post with the formal tone that denotes it should be fact. Like below.



If you call -13 safe then sure.



No, these would eat 40%. Do the math.

Then statements like



I mean no disrespect intended but who's to say you're even good? Let alone able to work this character out in 9 weeks? Playing against the best players doesn't mean you have flushed him out, it might just mean you're bad.

Either way nobody should be saying after 9 weeks "I have no options" let alone saying that a character's fastest safest move with very good hit advantage is 2011 meta.

I used your site to check the frame data. Quan has a cancel into ex rune which is +15 but I admit to not checking the advantage on it and that rune has a hole, Kenshi is -5 on his mid hitting 32 and it's cancellable, that I know because @Metzos plays him. Ermac's B12 is -3 according to your spreadsheet.

I seem to do just fine with all the players in my scene and we have quite a few good players in more than even 2 games who have been travelling for quite some time. My competition is good and I'm capable of challenging them, I recognise whenever something is out of my skill level just like I openly admitted I thought a lot of matchups in IGAU were in Joker's favour or not as bad as commonly thought yet I didn't have anywhere near the amount of patience required to play them as such.

It's obvious that I still haven't figured out this character, nothing is yet figured out to the max. But from what little intelligence I've been given I can tell how the basic counterpoking of Kotal is inferior to the rest of the cast in this variation for absolutely no reason.

 

[Qwark28]

Look, i mained Cyber Kano for the first month and change of the game's life. I understand the frustrations of playing an honest, mid tier character. You have to work 10x harder for mediocre reward than the top ten do for a big reward.

It sucks. It's especially frustrating when you know your character would be really good in any other game besides this one.

I don't care about working, I've never ended up playing anything more than a mid tier character after spending some time learning the game with another, coincidentally always a top tier character, before switching to worse ones.

But this is just a little too much to deal with. I can't seriously be outperformed in most situations AND lack this fundamental thing. I'm 100% gonna stick with it patch or no patch but I wanted to let people know because few new things are generally discussed about KK.

In the end, I understand if this isn't fixed, Kotal will remain a mid to low tier char outside of War god but I won't be crucified for trying to bring this to light.

 

[Qwark28]

Food for thought, Blood god has the same problem and has no command throw, no armoured move and no way to open you up.

 

[KeyserSoze]

I agree with a lot of this. This is a very honest look at a major issue for Kotal (This really applies to BOTH Sun God and Blood God). Generally speaking, he's a risky character unless you play War God. It really is that simple.

My two cents on Sun God's biggest single issue:

Like all grapplers in MKX, Sun God suffers greatly from the preponderance of moves that are either grab immune or can low profile special moves in general. IMO, there are just far, far, far too many moves that are grab immune in MKX and D3s/D4s should not be able to low profile so many special moves.

 

[Jeffrey Wolf]

Not being able to safely cancel utility strings is definitely one of the reasons why SG and BG are much lower down the tier list than WG.

@Qwark28, you know I respect all the lab monstering you do for KK, but why the thread? We knew this since week one. Is it a hope that NRS will patch? That's, unfortunately, doubtful, at least in the near future, since they've already tweaked SG and BG some. Is it the frustration of playing a lower tier character over an extended period? If so, I hear you. It's always annoying when a character/variation you love doesn't fit within a game's high level meta, but that's the lot we're in with fighting games. Maybe the devs will fix it, but until then, you've got to ask yourself why you play: Is it for fun or is it to win? If the the former, play what you like. If the latter, for your own happiness, you might want to think about a change.

 

[Qwark28]

Not being able to safely cancel utility strings is definitely one of the reasons why SG and BG are much lower down the tier list than WG.

@Qwark28, you know I respect all the lab monstering you do for KK, but why the thread? We knew this since week one. Is it a hope that NRS will patch? That's, unfortunately, doubtful, at least in the near future, since they've already tweaked SG and BG some. Is it the frustration of playing a lower tier character over an extended period? If so, I hear you. It's always annoying when a character/variation you love doesn't fit within a game's high level meta, but that's the lot we're in with fighting games. Maybe the devs will fix it, but until then, you've got to ask yourself why you play: Is it for fun or is it to win? If the the former, play what you like. If the latter, for your own happiness, you might want to think about a change.

It was never discussed considering how hugely important this is. Never once did I see it mentioned in this scenario.

 

[SEV]

Qwark has it right in my opinion. KK has no safe options outside of D/F/B1. It's alright on paper because every time SG has + frames it's supposed to be a pseudo 50/50 between buttons and command grab; therefore, any time he presses a button within a certain range, he's going for a 50/50, which is maybe why all his strings are unsafe.

The issue is, playing safe is a key principle in fundamentals. So in order to do so, you can only yield 2-3% damage at a time, and to put any damage above 3% on the table, you need to commit completely, and risk a full combo punish.

I play a good amount of characters, and have at least lab'ed a lot of the rest, and I haven't encountered any other character with this issue.

It's definitely not a make or break issue as you can still win currently, but it would definitely be nice for B122 to be safer by either making it less - or adding more push back, so if you go for buttons on the pseudo 50/50 you could use B12 then hit confirm into either command grab or air toss, or finish the string.

 

[Jeffrey Wolf]

This was part of my post about how SG and BG weren't relevant at a high level (albeit a very small part though), so good stuff for fleshing it out more and increasing awareness. As we've discussed, hopefully down the road SG and BG will be viable, but as it stands now, sadly, they're just too lacking.

 

[Predannok]

interesting so NOW something is wrong with Kotal kahn uh? After saying Anybody who thinks SG has weaknesses is a scrub who has no idea or is too lazy to learn matchups.

Why is it that noone wants to give their characters time to evolve and a million users keep constantly asking for buffs?

These complaint threads are horrible and made because people don't know how to play this character or anything about his tools

B12 and B122 are all done when you want more corner damage, have made a read or want to mix your opponent up with war god's mixups.

 

[Qwark28]

interesting so NOW something is wrong with Kotal kahn uh? After saying Anybody who thinks SG has weaknesses is a scrub who has no idea or is too lazy to learn matchups.

Everything you didn't directly quote I didn't say.

B12 and B122 are all done when you want more corner damage, have made a READ or want to mix your opponent up with war god's mixup. Guess the magic word. I don't kinow how I can make it clearer that this move is used only in these situations because it's unsafe. You specifically wanted to randomly throw it out and that's the answer you got. Deal with it and be sure to go back and edit your stuff before I quote it.

And interesting how you were advocating just throwing them out randomly and never actually mentioned that string as a counterpoke tool. You also wrote this which is what I was replying to.

But whatever, let's take quotes out of context because we were reprimanded on our OP buff ideas and downright ridiculous statements.

i like the idea for bg and sg but not another should charge , he already has plenty of those.
What about :Blood God's obisian Totem could have 1 hit of armor and be safe.
while Sun God's Sunstone could be a vialable wakeup with armor and enough startup not to be easily stuffed.

 

[Qwark28]

There isn't a greatly favourable risk reward in that situation for anyone, you've not given a really good example. the best most characters do is check them with a d1 lol. Maybe give a better example of the issue cause i don't even know what your point is.

His B12 is a great punisher that most of the cast would kill for, it hits above his head, and can't be low profiled has crazy range and launches. It 100% should not be safe, the only comparable mid that i can think of is cassies, which has no aerial hitbox and has a big hole in the middle.

Cassie's does have an aerial hitbox, has a hole in the end of the string you don't even need to do and is much faster.

B1 can be low profiled. I have literally given over 5 examples over 5 times on what is going on. Someone does something - but not punishable, you try to check with a safe mid string. Kotal is the only one who doesn't have a safe mid string and cannot cancel into + frames without being easily interrupted.

His b12 is not used to punish.

 

[Wigy]

Cassie's does have an aerial hitbox, has a hole in the end of the string you don't even need to do and is much faster.

B1 can be low profiled. I have literally given over 5 examples over 5 times on what is going on. Someone does something - but not punishable, you try to check with a safe mid string. Kotal is the only one who doesn't have a safe mid string and cannot cancel into + frames without being easily interrupted.

His b12 is not used to punish.

Just deleted my post since i completely got strings mixed up there, thought u meant f1b2 or whatever it was.

Egg on my face. Please ignore me.

 

[Qwark28]

Title updated, I didn't mention Blood god, can't imagine how horrible this variation must be if it doesn't even have the dirt sun god has.