Strategy - Sun God The problem that still plagues Sun/Blood god

[smokey]

How are you telling me that I'm whining and complaining when you yourself said you don't know Kotal's options then continue to tell me what I should be doing?

B1 is not a counterpoke. B1 is a 10f mid normal that by itself is -3. The followups are b12 at -14 and b122. The problem is that B1 by itself is 4% damage when 90% of the game's chars have string counterpokes that are cancellable, hit confirmable and give a full combo on hit or at least 15%. Kotal is the only grappler I've ever seen that can't make use of + frames when literally any other can.

I'm not complaining that I can't throw out punishable strings, I'm complaining that I can't throw out anything else that is meaningful because you have to be a fucking idiot to get discouraged by a D1 into a when a character allows you to press buttons non stop regardless of frame advantage or disadvantage because the only meaningful thing he could do is punishable. You're at a risk/reward ADVANTAGE if kotal is + in your face, that's not how fighting games work.

And after you do the poke on hit, 114 doesn't reach because it's a high into a bugged mid. You're at EXACTLY the same point and the only difference is that you can now just-frame a command grab or D1 again.

Ok so im not telling you what you should be doing because I clearly dont know Kotal like you do, but youre outright making a thread defining something you shouldnt be doing and then blowing it up yourself by saying why its a bad idea. The situation as you put it is a bad one for kotal kahn, so use what you have and make the best of it. If thats just a poke to discourage button presses and maybe bait an armoured move then you just have to run with that, and if they start blocking it then use your knowledge of kotal kahn to get a good read and punish that later when the situation comes round again. If Kotal struggles at this range then use your advantage off the poke to get back to a threatening range, or anything that you value more than 4%.

Also im telling you youre whining and complaining because you are...
"I'm complaining that I can't throw out anything else that is meaningful because you have to be a fucking idiot to get discouraged by a D1 into a when a character allows you to press buttons non stop regardless of frame advantage or disadvantage because the only meaningful thing he could do is punishable"
Dialling a punishable string which you cant hitconfirm is the best option because only fucking idiots respect frame advantage? What kind of people are you playing and can I have a go?

 

[BillStickers]

@Qwark28 Sun God is fine. Try leveling up instead of crying for buffs all the time.

 

[TakeAChance]

Mileena has the same problems, it's discouraging, but It's far less than 90% of the cast that have a safe 8f mid to check with.

Other than the gods, quite a few characters in this same boat.

 

[Qwark28]

Ok so im not telling you what you should be doing because I clearly dont know Kotal like you do, but youre outright making a thread defining something you shouldnt be doing and then blowing it up yourself by saying why its a bad idea. The situation as you put it is a bad one for kotal kahn, so use what you have and make the best of it. If thats just a poke to discourage button presses and maybe bait an armoured move then you just have to run with that, and if they start blocking it then use your knowledge of kotal kahn to get a good read and punish that later when the situation comes round again. If Kotal struggles at this range then use your advantage off the poke to get back to a threatening range, or anything that you value more than 4%.

Also im telling you youre whining and complaining because you are...
"I'm complaining that I can't throw out anything else that is meaningful because you have to be a fucking idiot to get discouraged by a D1 into a when a character allows you to press buttons non stop regardless of frame advantage or disadvantage because the only meaningful thing he could do is punishable"
Dialling a punishable string which you cant hitconfirm is the best option because only fucking idiots respect frame advantage? What kind of people are you playing and can I have a go?

You do something and you're -, now let's exclude backdashes for simplicity's sake.

I can

Do B1/F1 alone = 4% and some advantage
Do D1 = 2% and some advantage
Do a whole mid string that is punishable, on a read
Command throw ( 14 )
Block

You can

Press a button depending on how - you are and your character
Block, be + in case I did the first 2 options, full combo punish the third
Armour

Against 90% of the cast, this is what happens

I can

Do a mid, safe, hitconfirmable string into a combo
Bait armour
Throw

You can

Block
Armour

See the difference? All because every single mid string Kotal has is punishable on block. That is the real problem.

Mileena has the same problems, it's discouraging, but It's far less than 90% of the cast that have a safe 8f mid to check with.

Other than the gods, quite a few characters in this same boat.

It's not 8f, it's 10/11. Don't get your frame data off of shitposts.

 

[Temjiin]

Yet again, I'm not talking about - frames exclusively to kung lao.

ANY move that is up to -6 you CANNOT check with anything other than down pokes because your mids are full combo punishable WITHOUT the ability to hit confirm. 90% of this game's cast has safe, hitconfirmable, either cancellable or high damage strings that they can check anything that they cannot outright poke on block.

I'm not talking about backdash, I said that he can get out using it and that's perfectly fine, that is not relevant whatsoever. Jump back 2 has pre-jump frames and takes 7 frames or so to come out, no he cannot jumpback 2 at -2 or any other - frames. Why do you keep posting fake information as arguement just for me to blow them up?

It's a 10f, after B1 there is NO more pressure since you're -.

Man, I'm not even gonna bother replying anymore if you're not reading my posts and understanding them, you keep mentioning Kung lao when it's the third time I said this isn't just about him, why D1 alone is a bad option when 90% of the cast can do the basic checking with a mid string and every other scenario under which you can escape.

I'd already edited the jumpback part before you replied.

D1 is something that you can condition your opponent to respect, it's not a go-to option every time you're +2 - +6. If the opponent knows not to press a button at -2 or -6 or whatever then you can go for something else.

D1 stops them pressing buttons. Once you have established that, you can then choose whatever you want to follow up with. What does Sun God have that stops backdashing anyway?

Cry me a river for not having a go-to fast godlike mid hitting safe string, this exemplifies the point of a diverse cast.

 

[Phosferrax]

when the rest of the cast bar none threaten with full combo punishes.

This isn't strictly true, if we're talking about -3 situations.

 

[Qwark28]

This isn't strictly true, if we're talking about -3 situations.

Not just about -3

I can understand getting away with pokes at up to -2, maybe -3, depending on how fast your pokes are vs your opponent's. But 4 and above is ridiculous.

 

[smokey]

You do something and you're -, now let's exclude backdashes for simplicity's sake.

I can

Do B1/F1 alone = 4% and some advantage
Do D1 = 2% and some advantage
Do a whole mid string that is punishable, on a read
Command throw ( 14 )
Block

You can

Press a button depending on how - you are and your character
Block, be + in case I did the first 2 options, full combo punish the third
Armour

Against 90% of the cast, this is what happens

I can

Do a mid, safe, hitconfirmable string into a combo
Bait armour
Throw

You can

Block
Armour

See the difference? All because every single mid string Kotal has is punishable on block. That is the real problem.

It's not 8f, it's 10/11. Don't get your frame data off of shitposts.

Your opponents at -3 to -6, they have to take a risk to press a button because you have the advantage. Once you show them that, you have a mind game in place which goes off the flowchart and starts looking at the player you are facing. Excluding backdash for simplicities sake is stupid, backdash is an option and you should use it, so is walking back, so are throws, so is xray, hell you could just sprint at them and see if they are playing or not?
If you play the game against humans you will know that you have to condition your opponent. If by blocking they will end your advantage get a punish on your punishable string, then they might just be inclined sit and block. Kotal Kahn has a command grab that will soon discourage blocking right? Next time they might try to armour out, or put their own poke in, or start another string while you backdash away? Point is its a guessing game not a flowchart, and if you are gonna throw out unsafe strings because you cant take advantage of + frames in ANY other way, your opponents are laughing at you behind your back.

 

[Qwark28]

Your opponents at -3 to -6, they have to take a risk to press a button because you have the advantage. Once you show them that, you have a mind game in place which goes off the flowchart and starts looking at the player you are facing. Excluding backdash for simplicities sake is stupid, backdash is an option and you should use it, so is walking back, so are throws, so is xray, hell you could just sprint at them and see if they are playing or not?
If you play the game against humans you will know that you have to condition your opponent. If by blocking they will end your advantage get a punish on your punishable string, then they might just be inclined sit and block. Kotal Kahn has a command grab that will soon discourage blocking right? Next time they might try to armour out, or put their own poke in, or start another string while you backdash away? Point is its a guessing game not a flowchart, and if you are gonna throw out unsafe strings because you cant take advantage of + frames in ANY other way, your opponents are laughing at you behind your back.

The risk they take on pressing a button is the same risk I take in throwing out the move that punishes that button EXCLUDING the fact they can armour, that's the point. Why should I be punished when the rest of the cast, again excluding armour, can have their mid counterpoke strings safe and hitconfirmable?

Excluding backdash is something to prove my point. In a situation you'd call defenseless vs other chars you're not actually defenseless vs Kotal.

Command grab is 14f 49f on whiff.

You can take advantage of them pressing buttons in a very minor way compared to literally every other character in this game.

As an analogy, same one I made earlier. Imagine smoke's b2 and b23 was -10 on block after your opponent just poked you and is -5 and your other normals either whiff or are the same - frames.

 

[Big Pampering]

I think what qwark is trying to say is what keeps the kung lao player from throwing out a move while being at -3, because it isnt really high risk or even medium risk for the kung lao player.

 

[smokey]

Why should I be punished when the rest of the cast, again excluding armour, can have their mid counterpoke strings safe and hitconfirmable?

Because you are playing Kotal Kahn, not the rest of the cast.

Why the fuck should every character have the same tools and options in every situation? Because pig of the hut got his buffs? Play to your characters strengths, dont just highlight their weaknesses and point out things other characters do better. Maybe B1 should have a lightning extension which pushes you back, does chip damage and builds half a bar of meter. Maybe it should hit low and be + on block and grant a free 50/50. Whos to say what it should and shouldnt do. Go look at what it DOES and DOESNT do then try coming up with a new flowchart.

 

[Temjiin]

I think what qwark is trying to say is what keeps the kung lao player from throwing out a move while being at -3, because it isnt really high risk or even medium risk for the kung lao player.

D1. But apparently that's a 4 year old meta and unfair compared to what other characters get at -2...

 

[Qwark28]

Because you are playing Kotal Kahn, not the rest of the cast.

Why the fuck should every character have the same tools and options in every situation? Because pig of the hut got his buffs? Play to your characters strengths, dont just highlight their weaknesses and point out things other characters do better. Maybe B1 should have a lightning extension which pushes you back, does chip damage and builds half a bar of meter. Maybe it should hit low and be + on block and grant a free 50/50. Whos to say what it should and shouldnt do. Go look at what it DOES and DOESNT do then try coming up with a new flowchart.

His strength is up close and personal. He can't do that currently against almost the entire cast if put in this specific poke situation.

I have listed everything Kotal can do. It's all a guess or a read when other characters don't have to enter that mixup in that scenario. Why should Kotal? What does he have that's so fucking good in Sun god that he can't effectively play the counterpoke game without the risk reward being skewed massively in the opponent's favor? Where exactly else am I supposed to beat other characters if not up close?

I'm not asking for anything crazy, merely something that literally every single character in this game has in one form or the other. Let me be able to hitconfirm something super - so I can at least punish someone for doing something utterly braindead in a meaningful way. Is that too much to ask?

Maybe they should take away all his mids and his throws though, why should every character have mids?

 

[smokey]

His strength is up close and personal. He can't do that currently against almost the entire cast if put in this specific poke situation.

I have listed everything Kotal can do. It's all a guess or a read when other characters don't have to enter that mixup in that scenario. Why should Kotal? What does he have that's so fucking good in Sun god that he can't effectively play the counterpoke game without the risk reward being skewed massively in the opponent's favor? Where exactly else am I supposed to beat other characters if not up close?

I'm not asking for anything crazy, merely something that literally every single character in this game has in one form or the other. Let me be able to hitconfirm something super - so I can at least punish someone for doing something utterly braindead in a meaningful way. Is that too much to ask?

Maybe they should take away all his mids and his throws though, why should every character have mids?

So every character needs a safe hit confirmable mid, or they cant take advantage of being + frames? Every time you are + frames in someones face you have to guess because you dont have a safe hitconfirmable mid?
You have a 6 frame d4, you have backdashes, you have throws and command grab, you have armoured moves, you have cross over punch which jails into your other strings... but your opponents have no reason to respect universal gameplay mechanics like frame advantage, because you are kotal kahn and they are any other member of the cast?

Alright then.

 

[Qwark28]

So every character needs a safe hit confirmable mid, or they cant take advantage of being + frames? Every time you are + frames in someones face you have to guess because you dont have a safe hitconfirmable mid?
You have a 6 frame d4, you have backdashes, you have throws and command grab, you have armoured moves, you have cross over punch which jails into your other strings... but your opponents have no reason to respect universal gameplay mechanics like frame advantage, because you are kotal kahn and they are any other member of the cast?

Alright then.

This is where you don't understand Kotal.

His floaty jump is anti aired by almost everyone's jab on crossup, command grab is 14f and almost never worth doing raw, d4 is -10 and not the normal you use when + in your opponent's face.

Like I said, risk reward is in their favor when THEY are the ones at -, how many times must I say it, not that he literally has nothing he can do. What he can do is very minor compared to everyone else, don't put words in my mouth.

And, as it happens, 90% of the cast does have a hit confirmable mid...

 

[smokey]

This is where you don't understand Kotal.

His floaty jump is anti aired by almost everyone's jab on crossup, command grab is 14f and almost never worth doing raw, d4 is -10 and not the normal you use when + in your opponent's face.

Like I said, risk reward is in their favor when THEY are the ones at -, how many times must I say it, not that he literally has nothing he can do. What he can do is very minor compared to everyone else, don't put words in my mouth.

And, as it happens, 90% of the cast does have a hit confirmable mid...

Who cares what the rest of the cast has, Kotal doesnt so get over it, if you dont like it go play someone else in the cast and be happier for it. Theres no way to cover all your options in those situations and yeah a good mid would help, but its basically neutral and your opponent is in your face with his own options. Throwing out a poke is not bad and is a stepping stone towards a mixup, and throwing out an unsafe unhitconfirmable mid gets you punished when blocked, its seriously that simple.

 

[BillStickers]

Who cares what the rest of the cast has, Kotal doesnt so get over it, if you dont like it go play someone else in the cast and be happier for it. Theres no way to cover all your options in those situations and yeah a good mid would help, but its basically neutral and your opponent is in your face with his own options. Throwing out a poke is not bad and is a stepping stone towards a mixup, and throwing out an unsafe unhitconfirmable mid gets you punished when blocked, its seriously that simple.

Lol umad

 

[Qwark28]

Who cares what the rest of the cast has, Kotal doesnt so get over it, if you dont like it go play someone else in the cast and be happier for it. Theres no way to cover all your options in those situations and yeah a good mid would help, but its basically neutral and your opponent is in your face with his own options. Throwing out a poke is not bad and is a stepping stone towards a mixup, and throwing out an unsafe unhitconfirmable mid gets you punished when blocked, its seriously that simple.

So when our characters have a problem we should just shut the fuck up and not say anything according to you.

God forbid we ask for a character to have the same options after a blocked move as the rest of the cast, you don't know Kotal yet are strictly against this fix for reasons that I don't even know.

You've made your point clear, move on. This was supposed to be a topic for discussion with the rest of the KK mains about his issues and suggestions to fix the problem but fuck me for posting it and we've now reached the meta of saying the exact same thing over and over again with your agenda being "don't buff".

Because fuck wanting a solid option against the trademark aspect of NRS games this past half a decade.

 

[smokey]

So when our characters have a problem we should just shut the fuck up and not say anything according to you.

God forbid we ask for a character to have the same options after a blocked move as the rest of the cast, you don't know Kotal yet are strictly against this fix for reasons that I don't even know.

You've made your point clear, move on. This was supposed to be a topic for discussion with the rest of the KK mains about his issues and suggestions to fix the problem but fuck me for posting it and we've now reached the meta of saying the exact same thing over and over again with your agenda being "don't buff".

Because fuck wanting a solid option against the trademark aspect of NRS games this past half a decade.

Yeah fuck exploring our options and leveling up, lets just rewrite the frame data and make threads on how we would design video games, that'll show em!

 

[Qwark28]

Yeah fuck exploring our options and leveling up, lets just rewrite the frame data and make threads on how we would design video games, that'll show em!

I mentioned all my options, I've been playing this variation exclusively with some of the best players in europe offline for almost 2 fucking months with it, I think I know my options, I posted every single one in the OP which none of you apparently read.

 

[Temjiin]

The notion that anyone has explored all possible options for a character 9 weeks after a game has been released is nothing short of astonishing.

 

[TakeAChance]

The notion that anyone has explored all possible options for a character 9 weeks after a game has been released is nothing short of astonishing.

Shhh, we are all of an inferior intellect.

 

[smokey]

I mentioned all my options, I've been playing this variation exclusively with some of the best players in europe offline for almost 2 fucking months with it, I think I know my options, I posted every single one in the OP which none of you apparently read.

You mentioned the options which get you blown up, disregarded backdashing (for simplicity!) and also dont see the value in checking your opponent with a safe poke to make them respect your frame advantage. You clearly have explored all the options and came to the wrong conclusions, I have nothing left to say and its quite boring, good luck getting onto the balance team and enjoy throwing out punishable strings at negligible advantage.

 

[Qwark28]

You mentioned the options which get you blown up, disregarded backdashing (for simplicity!) and also dont see the value in checking your opponent with a safe poke to make them respect your frame advantage. You clearly have explored all the options and came to the wrong conclusions, I have nothing left to say and its quite boring, good luck getting onto the balance team and enjoy throwing out punishable strings at negligible advantage.

I agreed to your point about the low pokes. I stated for 2 pages that that is inefficient and not ideal, I even came out to say that IS one of my very limited options and that's why his mids should be adjusted.

But yeah, good luck finding a character who can't throw out a mid string in that sort of + frames. Oh, Kotal. Because fuck buffing mediocre variations, "just switch chars brah".

 

[Phosferrax]

@SneakyTortoise