General/Other - Scorpion The Current Scorpion problems in general

[Crimson Panther]

The salt is real in this thread.

Nobody is saying Scorpion is bad. Just that he's not as good as he appears right now. Let's not forget the first few days people were complaining about Takeda being ridiculous with his range....now look at him.

The only characters that are clearly top tier right now are Summoner Quan, Thunder God Raiden, and maybe Bojutsu Kung Jin.

Everyone else is up in the air right now.

Edit: By the way, those of you saying things like "you're just not playing against him at the highest level" make sure you're playing YOUR character at the highest level in that MU.

Just because you may get bodied by Scorpion doesn't necessarily mean he was being played at the highest level.

 

[coolwhip]

I play @RunwayMafia almost everyday and the progression of how we play our games have changed.

F4 is reactable and 99% of the time blocked. So that leaves only F2 for an overhead. B32F2 is always blocked and have to guess if I have to block a punish (because it's -9) or back dash a throw (which there are ways to punish that too).

B3 FBRC into 214 is always poked out of so have to use other less optimal strings to follow up with.

The point I'm trying to make: Scorpion is a good character. But as players start blowing up his problems and as the game continues to develop he won't be seen as this "top tier character".

In his current iteration, barring nerfs, Scorpion will always be top tier. Hellfire is ridiculously good.

 

[Redk9]

I don't think 214 rc is a bill but rc off of other normals tgat don't have the same cancel advantage can be considered a bill.

He's got solid nuetral game tools though. When players start reaction jumping hellfire you can use fbc into rc aa. It's pretty scary to deal with imo. Then every air to air leads to over 30% with free chip damage and 50 50s all over the place.

I don't see hellfire scorpion really dropping down much.

BTW scorpion does have a teleport that's pretty much safe. People mentioned earlier how whiff tele can be punished but he also has his retreating tele that can probably only be punished by a few characters.

But that chip damage ISN'T free. If someone eats the last hit of the string (5% damage) the scorpion player must guess and attempt to confirm with an unsafe move leading to a mind game that high risk high reward. "50 50s all over the place"? His overhead option that can actually be combo'd off of has no safe follow ups if blocked. Flame aura is interrupt-able, EX spear whiffs if they crouch without blocking, and ex teleport is unsafe. Not to mention the overhead is drastically slower then the low option, and anyone doing an armor move out of a reset will beat that options anyways. The retreating teleport has no armor unless used on wake up, and has a long start up. Its an extra long back dash without invincibility that leads to no stamina. How is that good?

I don't think scorpion is bad, but there are things people really just don't know about him that can be exposed

 

[Crimson Panther]

In his current iteration, barring nerfs, Scorpion will always be top tier. Hellfire is ridiculously good.

Time will tell. But there is no doubt that he is being overhyped right now by players that don't know about and/or punish the holes in his game.

When I get away with these things it's an easy win sure. But when I am being punished for example if I use anything other than 214 in his pressure (which can be ducked by the way) and try something like B3 FBRC I'm pretty much limited to down pokes otherwise I'm punished.

B121 I honestly haven't played with much yet so I don't know much about it except it's a safe mid that guarantees an EX HF on hit.

But like I said, time will tell us for sure.

 

[Triplswing]

If someone eats the last hit of the string (5% damage) the scorpion player must guess and attempt to confirm with an unsafe move leading to a mind game that high risk high reward.

He doesn't have to. He gets a free knockdown and if he is buffering a fireball then he can either cancel is or hold it to throw on wakeup. Not much risk involved there. And if you wanna do that every time, well that's 7-8% damage on top of every combo, with the risk of a reset if scorpion feels like trying for it.

 

[BillStickers]

B2 in ninjutsu is one of those moves that could easily swing from "ok" to "broke as fuck" with even minor tweaking. I assume the move is the way it is now because whatever previous iteration existed was considered too powerful.

Asking for s1 to be mid is the most absurd thing I've ever heard though lol. I don't think any character has a mid hitting s1.

 

[Nereus]

B2 scales tremendously in Ninjutsu. Yes it has decent startup and great range... but his damage in this variation is laughable when using these pokes to the point where you're wondering "Why am i using this instead of Hellfire or Inferno". IMO they need to do something about that because B2 just scales way too badly.. not to mention B2 and F2 are both unsafe (B2 = -14) (F2 = -11). Also.. sorry for offending those that this refers to but this needs to be said: To those who keep saying to use another variation and stop asking for buffs in Ninjutsu, stop being a little salty bitch and for once listen to what Eddy or anyone else is asking for. You guys are letting your emotions take over your judgment. If two variations are really solid and one variation is lacking.. telling someone to just use another one than the one that's lacking is the solution? Nah bruh. Scorpion is really solid and he doesn't need buffs tbh, but, having B2 scale less considering how unsafe it is will be a fair trade in Ninjutsu and he'll be fine.

S1 being a mid is a bit too much.. and b121 is already good Eddy.. it's -1 on block.

 

[STRYKIE]

You can whiff punish jump ins targeted at your head by ducking and jab the ones targeted at your chest. You can also run under any jump to fool the tracking system and full combo punish on the ground against every single character in this game.

Scorpion has a good air to air, meaning you shouldn't be jump with him, but his air normals are different from Kung Jin's or Kung Lao, you can actually duck those do whiff punish on recovery.

Any way, if Scorpion whiffs a jump attack he gets a different window to teleport on whiff, it will only come out much more later.

If jumping is your current problem i suggest you get these down first before anything else.

214 FBC is a blockstring, if you take the last hit of 214 you can throw off timing and escape the loop.
Scorpion might try to guess either you drop it or not, and try to cancel with ex spear, either way his pressure ends on the third hit everytime. Even if he lands a ex Fireball out of the blockstring to be at +8, you can backdash out of the next pressure, when at this situation his only viable followup pressure to cool off the stamina regen is B32F2, which you can armor out of, or let your clone do the job with a reversal escape.

Also F2 is -9, B32F2 is also -9, sub should get a reversal slide everytime he lands one.
Don't randomly use B2 in this MU, Scorpion F3 can punish that easy.

And the classic advice, if you're getting comboed by scorpion, always block low, then react to the overhead.

Quick correction; F2 is -6, only Cassie can punish it with reversal flipkick up close.

 

[Nereus]

Quick correction; F2 is -6, only Cassie can punish it with reversal flipkick up close.

Reptile can punish it with ex slide as well.

 

[Slips]

How do you feel about Raiden? Not sure if he categorically gives Scorpion as many problems as Cassie, but IMO it's definitely not a winning matchup for Scorp.

Raiden is probably a losing mu because Raiden is just silly lol. But I wouldn't consider it that bad because Scorp still gets to run his game, he probably has t guess right a few more times than Raiden though. Only Cassie I'm seeing really forces Scorp to abandon his best tools.

I play subzero, my local scorpion is a great player but I've only played few matches with him, barely enough to understand scorp's playstyle.

How does the matchup go and what should I look for against scorpion? Right now he looks like a jumping bunny with a teleport and 214 fireball run cancel meter building and chip.

To me it's a 5-5. Scorp has to careful of Ice Clone as much Sub has to be careful of Hellfire. Mid screen Scorp wins 6-4 while in the corner he loses 4-6. If Scorp stays out of the corner he should win imo.

I don't think 214 rc is a bill but rc off of other normals tgat don't have the same cancel advantage can be considered a bill.

He's got solid nuetral game tools though. When players start reaction jumping hellfire you can use fbc into rc aa. It's pretty scary to deal with imo. Then every air to air leads to over 30% with free chip damage and 50 50s all over the place.

I don't see hellfire scorpion really dropping down much.

BTW scorpion does have a teleport that's pretty much safe. People mentioned earlier how whiff tele can be punished but he also has his retreating tele that can probably only be punished by a few characters.

214 rc is good but I think people over-exaggerate how good it is. It's good, but some people think it's out of control which is what the bill is to me.

His neutral game is adequate, his fake tele is great. I don't think we disagree on those things. I have Scorp around 5th, but I could see him dropping a few spots. We'll see.

 

[BloodyNights]

I'm having a hard time figuring out who beats Inferno Scorpion. But if I had to put a guess, I'd say Kano, and Cassie are both trouble makers. Raiden may be retarded, but I think it's pretty even due to Scorpion's footsies.

 

[Clampa_]

Was gonna say stop complaining that ONE of your character's moves is not very good, do you think every move for every character is going to be useful. However it seems everyone else already covered that.

 

[Spinky]

Well then, can we have pre-patch ice clones back too?

 

[BloodyNights]

Well then, can we have pre-patch ice clones back too?

No...instead we will make it have 10 seconds of recovery time!

 

[Ugodimak]

Time for a quick thread recap.

1) Don't dare as for buffs on weaker variation(s) when your character already has a top 10 variation or you will be considered public enemy #1.

2) The complaints about said top 10 variation being OP and all that's played will still remain.

3) Everybody hates Scorpion.

4) TYM never misses an opportunity to blow someone up.

Anything I miss?

 

[RelentlessOhio]

I'm not saying lets not help other characters. Every Issue found in the game even from other characters should be adressed, before its to late to do anything, its not a matter of priorities. Have you seen Hat Trick Kung lao?

Hat Trick is shit compared to Buzz Saw.

 

[Scoot Magee]

But that chip damage ISN'T free. If someone eats the last hit of the string (5% damage) the scorpion player must guess and attempt to confirm with an unsafe move leading to a mind game that high risk high reward. "50 50s all over the place"? His overhead option that can actually be combo'd off of has no safe follow ups if blocked. Flame aura is interrupt-able, EX spear whiffs if they crouch without blocking, and ex teleport is unsafe. Not to mention the overhead is drastically slower then the low option, and anyone doing an armor move out of a reset will beat that options anyways. The retreating teleport has no armor unless used on wake up, and has a long start up. Its an extra long back dash without invincibility that leads to no stamina. How is that good?

I don't think scorpion is bad, but there are things people really just don't know about him that can be exposed

Actually people have been eating the last hit of the string against me for a very long time now, I know about this. I guess free was the wrong word to use but there's plenty of ways to get people to block, canceling the string early, ex spear (releasing block to make it whiff is extremely risky) and etc. The 50/50 I'm referring to is b3 and f2, it doesn't have to lead to a combo to be considered a 50/50, F4 is super slow and pretty easy to react to, I don't even use it outside of combos. His wakeup retreating teleport is really good but I never claimed it had armor outside of wakeup. It's totally useful to use at the end of a negative strings in order to get out safely before they can retaliate. The stamina regenerates pretty quickly and I find this works best in Ninjitsu & Inferno because Scorpion has options that need to be respected when they try to just rush in on you because you have no stamina. It's still useful in hellfire as well.

 

[Levaranoia]

Fuck this braindead character! Can't wait till the nerf stick gets stuck right up this fuccboi's ass!

 

[Scoot Magee]

Fuck this braindead character! Can't wait till the nerf stick gets stuck right up this fuccboi's ass!

Don't hate bro.

 

[Redk9]

Actually people have been eating the last hit of the string against me for a very long time now, I know about this. I guess free was the wrong word to use but there's plenty of ways to get people to block, canceling the string early, ex spear (releasing block to make it whiff is extremely risky) and etc. The 50/50 I'm referring to is b3 and f2, it doesn't have to lead to a combo to be considered a 50/50, F4 is super slow and pretty easy to react to, I don't even use it outside of combos. His wakeup retreating teleport is really good but I never claimed it had armor outside of wakeup. It's totally useful to use at the end of a negative strings in order to get out safely before they can retaliate. The stamina regenerates pretty quickly and I find this works best in Ninjitsu & Inferno because Scorpion has options that need to be respected when they try to just rush in on you because you have no stamina. It's still useful in hellfire as well.

But thats a mindgame that makes the whole block string pretty average. Now I have to attempt to use EX spear on a read that you stopped blocking? Regardless of the risk what if they block the whole string then stop blocking making the spear whiff? I wasted a meter and i got full combo punished. Even if they block the whole thing and the spear i wasted a meter and im at negative frames. And there are plenty of characters that have 50/50s that lead to full combos reliably. And why am i doing a negative string with scorpion and not fireball canceling? You suggesting me to use a retreating teleport and lose all my stamina is a situation that i really shouldn't ever be doing. If its a string I can't make safe by run canceling the fireball i can make it safe by back dashing out of a fireball canceling and only losing 1 bar of stamina instead of both.

The point here is scorpion most definitely has his flaws, and people are selling him as a top tier character way too hard. He's good, but he's out classed by several characters once you realize the holes he has.

 

[STRYKIE]

Don't hate bro.

No worries Scoot, I've got this.

Fuck this braindead character! Can't wait till the nerf stick gets stuck right up this fuccboi's ass!

Ohhhh the Osh-Tekk scum has arrived with his fuckboi mid-crushing 6 frame D4. I dare you to bring the nerfbat son, cause if you do...

 

[ciaran carrick]

Its balance Eddy. You get some tools you lose another ones, you can't have everything.

Why does jax have all the tools?

 

[ciaran carrick]

Flame fist is so bad that using as AA you risk to trade against the character jumping, and even if you get one, The damage he gets from landing such risky attack isn't rewarding, its not even worth spending a bar of meter if you land one, you will spend your bar at cost of having your damage scaled and the factor of dropping a teleport convertion off it will be there every time unless B2 connects against someone airbone.
And Again, why scorpion has B2 anyways? The move is bad on Hit, is bad on block, why is that on the command list?

And this are the problems of B2, now lets see another thing that hasn't been adressed yet, is the fact that Scorpion lacks mid hitting attacks that are reliable aside from B1

Scorpion has basically NO Mid starters in this game in any of his variations, and this is putting a big hole on his defensive game, it wasn't relevant before because his ex teleport had armor, so if i would teleport on reaction when being pressured by characters with safe launchers like Kotal who has a -10 F2. Now he has no reliable mids, and in many situations when you want to attack someone, who just poked you, you will get low profiled most of the times, because all of your good buttons are all highs and starts at 9 or 10 frames, so in general a -10 move against scorpion is 0, if he press standing 2 he is at -1 and hits high, and standing 1 he is at neutral, but that move hits high, so the is absolutely nothing holding them back do Mash D1 or D4 when they put you to block something at -10 because he can get low profiled most of the times, he can't punish, so by basically removing the armored teleport NRS openend another weakness in Scorpion's game that maybe it wasn't intended, now he is in desperate help for mids, and B3 doesn't help, it can't be used for checking, is punishable on block too.

And for the matter of fact, his walkspeed doesn't help either so i have to keep backdashing these until i found myself in the corner, or i should do what he was designed for, Yolo a ex teleport in between pressure so my opponent pokes and block on reaction and then punishes me for trying to punish them?

If its not asking much at least standing 1 should hit mid, this would make this poking counter poking better than the joke that is now, and this would go away.

Right now the only good thing happening for Scorpion is Hellfire, because in Hellfire i can fireball cancel normals and stay safe for a while, but Ninjutsu and Inferno are falling a part as the time passes and more Scorpion players are all migrating to hellfire.

Reading through this, I have to disagree

Also, use 4, its a great aa that leads to great dmg

Isn't B121 a 9-10f Mid starter? thats -1 oB

I think B2 is supposed to be bad to make you pick ninjustu for the superior version.

Scorpion has these issues to give him problems punishing moves to keep him in line.
EX tele having armour outside wake up was ridiculous

You can get punishs that set you up for pressure like d1 d3 which is fine.

He's top 10 and one of the easiest to use top tier characters in the game, no question.

 

[BloodyNights]

As of right now, I don't think Scorpion needs buffs or nerfs. He isn't overpowered, and he isn't underpowered either. Feels like one of the most balanced characters and seems to go 5-5 with most of the cast. Only a select few 6-4's, and select few 4-6's.

It isn't like Grandmaster Sub-Zero where if you didn't have a EX armor attack that could combo, or normals that reached past clone that it was like 8-2 in Sub's favor. Obviously before the nerf patch.

All his variations bring a little something to the table as well. Rush down Hellfire, Balanced mix of zone and rush Inferno, and Spacing Ninjitsu.

 

[Levaranoia]

No worries Scoot, I've got this.


Ohhhh the Osh-Tekk scum has arrived with his fuckboi mid-crushing 6 frame D4. I dare you to bring the nerfbat son, cause if you do...

So what if my d4 can stuff some mids. I don't have a character who has a bunch of mindless METERLESS vortexes. He'll get nerfed...bank on it.