Something that SERIOUSLY bothers me...

[Minh Giang]

Anyone remember when CDJr won a tournament with Jax, people said "Jax is strong", "nerf Jax",.. and just few weeks before that, at EVO 2011, the commentators (Aris and UltraDavid) said that "Jax is probaly the worst char in the game" lol.

 

[Mr Aquaman]

lol when did i say kf loses to supes? sad if you need to put words in my mouth to win a fight

I said sups because he beat the world champ, and you havent

 

[TakeAChance]

Anyone remember when CDJr won a tournament with Jax, people said "Jax is strong", "nerf Jax",.. and just few weeks before that, at EVO 2011, the commentators (Aris and UltraDavid) said that Jax is probaly the worst char in the game lol.

But he wasn't...at all lol. Jax is still a REALLY good character in MK9. Jax was good before he got buffed to the moon...

Flash = Jax?

 

[Minh Giang]

But he wasn't...at all lol. Jax is still a REALLY good character in MK9. Jax was good before he got buffed to the moon...

Flash = Jax?

Jax was underrated before CDJr's win imo, but people on TYM who said that Jax needed nerfs, Jax is OP,... etc something like that after CDJr's win, are crazy lol.

 

[TakeAChance]

Jax was underrated before CDJr's win imo, but people on TYM who said that Jax needed nerfs, Jax is OP,... etc something like that after CDJr's win, are crazy lol.

That was mostly the people that had to get armor stomped by him. Then Kabal and Kenshi came into their own and Jax was only used by the true hardcore at heart. (Tyrant)

 

[Cossner]

um ok mr. "kf only has 1 bad mu" but then doesnt win any majors or top 3 finishes. keep upplaying kf

So for you, having a good MU is an automatic free win, and having a bad mu is an automatic loss.

LOGIC

 

[MeZMeRiZe]

One thing I CANNOT STAND about this community is the mentality on tier placements. The vibe you guys give me about tier placements is:

"If a character makes top 8, he/she is top 10. If a character doesn't make top 8, he/she is not top 8".

Why think that like? That makes no sense at all. A tier list is based on MU numbers and tools for each character. Tourney placings shouldn't have such a key factor in making a list IMO.

Prime example. Let's look at Wonder Woman. She is without a doubt a top 5 character, yet she has almost no top 8 placings. Now let's look at GA. He's not a top 10 character, yet he's been nearly every top 8 for IGAU majors. Get my point?

If placings really did matter about making a tier list, then the top characters would be Superman, Aquaman, Black Adam, Sinestro and GA. Does that seem like a legit top 5 to you?

That's just been on my mind for a while, and TFC definitely added more influence on me to make this thread. Just wanted to get it out there and see if anyone else feels the same or different.

100% correct my brotha. The majority of this community doesn't really know about how tier list are created. Shit majority of these ppl don't even really know about FG's period. Which is why you just ignore these ppl and let them think how they wanna. Eventually they will learn.

 

[EMPEROR_THEO]

A character's placing at a tournament is more directly correlated with whose in their bracket, rather than that characters placing on the tier. People forget that that's a MASSIVE factor on pretty much every character's success in tourneys (save for Superman and Kabal).

 

[Cossner]

A character's placing at a tournament is more directly correlated with whose in their bracket, rather than that characters placing on the tier. People forget that that's a MASSIVE factor on pretty much every character's success in tourneys (save for Superman and Kabal).

Dude you can't get logic in these forums. Shush shush.

 

[Lumpymoomilk]

My tier list Tuesday will look like this

S + tier
GTA 5

fish tier
Injustice

 

[zaf]

CrimsonShadow
GGA 16 Bit
xKhaoTik

honestly, results are the least important aspect of making a tier list.
Character tools and match ups contribute more towards a real tier list.

Two top level players can sit in a room together and grind out match ups all they want.
Nothing is on the line, and both of the players can usually come to an agreement on how characters play out against each other.
You do not need a tournament for this to be effective.

16 bit, you wanna know why we do not see so many supermans, aquaman etc making top 8s? Same problem we had in mk9. Low
character representation.

With so many people on the forums, you would think that there would be more then 100 people at a major for inj. You would hope for the numbers that sf4 brings in. But inj is not bringing those numbers.

In reality, results should not effect out NRS game tier lists. Yet we only seem to want to look at this.

In the smash brothers community, they have their shit together. I also come from this community so long ago.
They have a "back room", this is a closed off small group of top level members.
Only these handful of people are the ones making the tier lists for the game.

If you look at jigglypuff or ganondorf in melee, 1 player maybe 2 brought jigglypuff to a top 5 character on the tier list.
1 player put ganondorf in the top 10.

You do not need to have 8x superman players spread out across north america, all placing well for the tier placement to be true.
Not with our games at least.

We have a very low tournament show up rate. With a low representation of top level play for the characters we see.

So results should be the last thing we take into account for tier lists.

 

[Mr Aquaman]

And all im saying is if flash and ww don't start making top 8s im putting tier lists on blast

 

[xKhaoTik]

We have to take account of skill gaps and such as well man.

Yea, Aqua is arguably the best in the game with no bad MUs (KF beats him IMO), so wouldn't that mean he should body people in tournies? That's what the common person would think.

But also factor in skill gaps. There's always going to be someone better than you, no matter what character you use.

So yes, Aqua is a force, but he hasn't won anything since may. He's still a top character, but there's just better players that are better than aquaman players right now .

 

[THTB]

You know one thing that bothers me, KHAOTIK.

Is you proposing to me last year and you go and cheat on me every tournament you go to.
Talk about pet peeves. #ThisGirlIsPissed

What?!?!?!?! Were you NOT on stream when bill stickers was hitting on me and I turned him down because I said I was married to YOU!?

#Revolver

nuff said lol

No comment lol

Now this exchange is what keeps me wanting to be a part of TYM.

 

[RM Jonnitti]

One thing I CANNOT STAND about this community is the mentality on tier placements. The vibe you guys give me about tier placements is:

"If a character makes top 8, he/she is top 10. If a character doesn't make top 8, he/she is not top 8".

Why think that like? That makes no sense at all. A tier list is based on MU numbers and tools for each character. Tourney placings shouldn't have such a key factor in making a list IMO.

Prime example. Let's look at Wonder Woman. She is without a doubt a top 5 character, yet she has almost no top 8 placings. Now let's look at GA. He's not a top 10 character, yet he's been nearly every top 8 for IGAU majors. Get my point?

If placings really did matter about making a tier list, then the top characters would be Superman, Aquaman, Black Adam, Sinestro and GA. Does that seem like a legit top 5 to you?

That's just been on my mind for a while, and TFC definitely added more influence on me to make this thread. Just wanted to get it out there and see if anyone else feels the same or different.

being new to the community myself, i dont know why they cant wrap their heads around things like matchup inexperience and players being actually that good. whenever someone gets bopped by a new character they always deem it a bad matchup instead of taking to to the lab first. ive messed around in plenty of other games and this is the only one that seems to have this logic amongst the community .

btw your matches i have recorded should be up in the next few days. i tried to do them while i was still here but the hotel wifi is really ass and it took over 2 hours to upload the first match

 

[jaym7018]

I disagree with the original post. Tourney results absolutely have to be taken into account when determining tier lists. Its not the end all be all but it definitely matters. The original post says tier lists should be about match ups, well how the hell do you determine match ups with out playing the game? If you are determining match ups on theory you are doing it wrong, theory fighting has no place in fighting games. I mean its stupid as hell for you to tell me some match up is 7-3 based on your theory but in actual real life than 7 is actually a 4 and that 3 is actually a 6.

 

[Mr. Mileena]

Now this exchange is what keeps me wanting to be a part of TYM.

His strong KF placings are not enough to hide his cheating ways.

Seriously considering divorce or just cheating on him too.

 

[PLAYING TO WIN]

I hear your point man!

But this is a constructive rebuttal. At the beginning of an NFL season they always rank and say who is the best. Lets say the browns are picked to win it all (lol). At the end of the season the browns finished horribly. People dont say... Well the browns (lol) on paper/chart is the best team so even though they didnt have a winning record we should still give them the trophy.

It is the results that matter man!

 

[zaf]

I think the Flash is another good example. A while back, a lot of people concluded that he is absolute top tier because of a list of theoretical strengths. After he was buffed, the consensus was that he was broken or automatic Top 5 based on his damage, frame data, mixups and 50/50's, etc.

But then in practice, maybe he struggles with some things like range, etc or he's still vulnerable to other characters' BS. The practical evidence would suggest that maybe people were having a knee-jerk reaction to the buffs and prematurely predicting him to dominate the game.

Either that or.. Everyone is playing him wrong and just needs time to level up. But which is it? Or maybe it's somewhere in the middle

I feel like the jury was still out on the Flash and it'd be great to see how more great players do with him (and we may never get that chance pre-patch) -- but overall, it just seems like you need both the results and the theory to come to any kind of reasonable conclusions. People are to prone to rush into assumptions, and the real-world evidence is the only thing that helps keep them in check.

People need to level up hard crimson.

Why should the flash not be considered a top tier character. I mean look at everything he has.
Just because no one wants to play him, or no one good can play him, does not mean that his tools just disappear.
The NRS game community tends to pick characters they like, rather then play top tiers.

Zyphox is arguably the best flash player correct? There is also AK Harold ( ive seen him before and i think his flash is great). But for this example let us go with zyphox okay ?

At summer jam I was chillin with zyphox outside having a smoke break. He was telling me MK9 was his first real game in tournaments and INJ would be his second. He told me himself, that his fundamentals as a fighting game player are his weakest aspect of his game. This is fine and it does makes sense. Being into fighting games for only a year or 2, this is the case with most people. Nothing to be ashamed of or even to make fun of someone for. Zyphox gives the game his heart, and you call tell he will get better as a player over the years. His fundamentals will get better.

But put him up against a player like reo, kdz, PL and say he loses right..... It will most of the time be Zyphoxs fault straight up that he lost and not the character. How can you blame the character for the reason of the loss, and the not the player with the weaker fundamentals ?

 

[xKhaoTik]

I disagree with the original post. Tourney results absolutely have to be taken into account when determining tier lists. Its not the end all be all but it definitely matters. The original post says tier lists should be about match ups, well how the hell do you determine match ups with out playing the game? If you are determining match ups on theory you are doing it wrong, theory fighting has no place in fighting games. I mean its stupid as hell for you to tell me some match up is 7-3 based on your theory but in actual real life than 7 is actually a 4 and that 3 is actually a 6.

Then the best player for each character need to sit down and have a ft10 at least. A ft2/3 tournament match will not prove a MU too much. It mainly proves who the better player is.

 

[Vithar]

People need tiers to make them feel better about losing/winning, etc. I personally just play characters that I enjoy, it is a game first after all.

Your ''casual'' words are full of shit.
If that's just ''a game'' for you , don't post in here.
This is a competitive site and many of the players here gain/gained money from MK/Inj.

 

[gdf]

Interesting take on tier placements. I'm posting to remember this for later.

 

[jaym7018]

I have always maintained that MU numbers should purely come from character tools on paper. How one characters frame data stacks up against the other. What happens if a certain move/attack is used versus this character. Can they punish? How much do they get out of it etc...

Not only do you not require highest level playing to see it, but you WON'T get the highest level because nobody can play the perfect character. Not to mention people have different playing styles etc. which may affect MU numbers.

Tournament placing, players playing the characters or anything like that has nothing to do with it. It's purely paper and theory based, contrary to what many believe.

Theory fighting is for scrubs, has no place in the real world. Its nothing but message board fodder.

 

[TakeAChance]

This thread is silly.

We all know the main thing that needs to be addressed is getting bopped in pools.

The single hardest thing in this game is getting out of pools.

No top player should ever take responsibility for losing in pools ever.

 

[zaf]

I disagree with the original post. Tourney results absolutely have to be taken into account when determining tier lists. Its not the end all be all but it definitely matters. The original post says tier lists should be about match ups, well how the hell do you determine match ups with out playing the game? If you are determining match ups on theory you are doing it wrong, theory fighting has no place in fighting games. I mean its stupid as hell for you to tell me some match up is 7-3 based on your theory but in actual real life than 7 is actually a 4 and that 3 is actually a 6.

If reo and tom brady play in tournament.
What is the difference between that and them playing for 5 hours straight and not moving.

Nothing.... Both situations have top level players playing the game.
A match does not have to be labeled as a tournament match for it to be played at the highest possible level.
It is not like everyone who enters a tournament, they all enter Super saiyan mode as the first match begins and they all gain omega level.

Sure, there is a trophy and money on the line, but the game is still being played out at high level.
That is all you need to be able to determine match ups.

Your post contained: theory fighting, tournament matchs.
What happened to training matches?
Did we all just stop playing the game and only play at tournament?
Tell me how training does not contribute to tier lists?