Proof That Some Attacks have more Advantage on Crouch Block

[buyacushun]

(All fighting games work like this, it's nothing new.)

I think the fuss is that these are fast useable strings and the affect is on what the defenser is doing instead of what the attacker is doing. It's different than when people space certain pokes and slides to make them safe (only times i've seen this), the attacker has to change what he's doing to make his attacks safe. With your jason example, is that string use a vertical attack?

 

[ShotgunInsanity]

Why do you guys care so much about fixing this game? I'd rather have more DLC.

Joking aside NRS isn't gonna fix this even if they could.

 

[infamy23]

I think the fuss is that these are fast useable strings and the affect is on what the defenser is doing instead of what the attacker is doing. It's different than when people space certain pokes and slides to make them safe (only times i've seen this), the attacker has to change what he's doing to make his attacks safe. With your jason example, is that string use a vertical attack?

Yeah I agree it's absolutely retarded for a string to randomly hit on a different active frame for no reason.

But that *is* part of what is causing the change in block advantage. Some people are trying to spread the theory that the block advantage just magically changes and that isn't the case. If someone crouch blocks a d1 for example, the block advantage is always going to be the same because there is no possibility for the d1 to hit on a later active frame.

That being said, I've just discovered some more unsettling information that I'll go over in the following post.

 

[xInfra Deadx]

This was present in MK9 and Injustice. And if I'm not mistaken, this actually exists in the old 2D MKs as well...at least from what I've felt playing them.

This probably goes right down to the core of the game itself.

While we're talking about blocking shit, why is nobody pointing out that some characters don't reel back as far on the heavy pushback animations...? Tanya for example reels back super far, but Jax barely budges. @colt

You should see how far away Predator gets bounced back after he blocks Kung Jin's EX Bo Swing. Cannot even punish it at all.

 

[Eminent]

Yeah Kotal Kahn can cancel strings into Ex sword throw and follow up with an uninterruptable b1 on some characters. But on other characters the pushback is too far and b1 whiffs...

 

[Afumba]

This was present in MK9 and Injustice. And if I'm not mistaken, this actually exists in the old 2D MKs as well...at least from what I've felt playing them.

This probably goes right down to the core of the game itself.

While we're talking about blocking shit, why is nobody pointing out that some characters don't reel back as far on the heavy pushback animations...? Tanya for example reels back super far, but Jax barely budges. @colt

Maybe when they decided on the whole male/female hitbox thing they went all out and put in a weightfactor to pushback... i mean Jax probably weighs like 5 times what Tanya does Well... as good as explanation as any i guess

 

[Javierich0]

So many dumb hidden mechanics in this game.

 

[infamy23]

Okay after about a hundred attempts, I cannot get Cassie's d1 to come out on the 28th or 29th frame after crouch blocking Predator's d1.

The earliest it will come out is the 30th frame, and there is no evidence of an input buffer like there is when she is standing.

So for this move at least, it appears that Predator's d1 will cause 1 extra frame of blockstun on a crouching opponent. (This would make it +2 instead of +1)

To make matters worse, if you try to do a standing normal out of crouching blockstun, you will be hit with the 1 frame standing penalty as well.

So if Cassie crouch blocks Predator's d1 and tries to counter poke with s2 (6 frame standing normal) on the first available frame (frame 30), her startup will be penalized because she needs to stand up first, making her s2 7 frames instead of 6.

Since she is already -2 because she crouch blocked, her s2 is now 9 frames instead of 6 lol

Then I switched to Raiden and discovered that his b1 also suffers from this 1 frame standing penalty, but oddly, his s2 does not.

Honestly I'm at a loss right now. I can't believe that some normals are 1 frame slower in this situation and others are not, but that is what I'm seeing so far.

 

[haketh]

You should see how far away Predator gets bounced back after he blocks Kung Jin's EX Bo Swing. Cannot even punish it at all.

Okay I thought I was tripping about pusblock being different for each character after blocking. That is really dumb.

 

[colt]

@colt is this true

Example is Kenshi standing 1 +2 on stand block but +4 on crouch block?

This 'was' actually present when blocking some moves. The next full update addresses them.

 

[buyacushun]

This 'was' actually present when blocking some moves. The next full update addresses them.

The Fixes Kreygasm. Can we get a little tease of what's to come?

 

[FinalBoss_FGC]

The Fixes Kreygasm. Can we get a little tease of what's to come?

You do not ask of God.

You just accept what is given.

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

OK final video example this time with a character trying to jump out of crouch block instead of using a normal.

Gonna edit the other examples into the original post.

Let me know what other normals you guys find that have different advantage on crouch block.

This stuffs related to the punish to kitana 2 1 into B14 I found at ESL, so certain frame traps can be escaped and punished with empty jumps.

 

[buyacushun]

You do not ask of God.

You just accept what is given.

Forgive me.

 

[EndofGameBoss]

What a great party game.

Spoiler

 

[THTB]

Maybe when they decided on the whole male/female hitbox thing they went all out and put in a weightfactor to pushback... i mean Jax probably weighs like 5 times what Tanya does Well... as good as explanation as any i guess

That flies out of the window when you have Predator flying back like Tanya lol.

 

[THTB]

I mean hitboxes overlapped to the models, like KI3 does. To my knowledge NRS has never used such method for collision detection and actually uses the 3D models of the characters themselves.

Yeah, but the problem delves beyond hitboxes. If that were the case, the active frames argument would be 100% logical. But then Tanya f2 and Kung Lao f2 throws all that shit to hell, because more likely than not, they are still hitting on their same frames, crouch or stand.

 

[ryublaze]

But that *is* part of what is causing the change in block advantage. Some people are trying to spread the theory that the block advantage just magically changes and that isn't the case. If someone crouch blocks a d1 for example, the block advantage is always going to be the same because there is no possibility for the d1 to hit on a later active frame.

idk I'm having Cassie do d1 and block immediately then try to counterpoke with Cassie's d1 and i can only get it to hit if i block it standing. Her d1 has 7 frame startup and is -8 on block. This is probably the easiest way to test this because u can go into block right away and u only have to hit one just-frame.

 

[Prinz]

This 'was' actually present when blocking some moves. The next full update addresses them.

The god has spoken. All go back to harvesting crops now.

 

[IrishMantis]

The only thing on my wish list for the final patch is for them to universally adjust the attrocious hit stun on all characters and there would be true counter poking system such as Mk9 that's all I would ask for.... I mean wouldn't you love to blow up people for mashing on negative frames? Aha and not have to remember if you blocked hi or low to do so?

I agree too

But I think this was to stop things like MK9s JC f3 f3 guess when to let go of block scenario

But somewhere inbetween be nice makes the game feel heavy and is very jarring for such a fast pace game

 

[ryublaze]

I think it's safe to say that this applies to every move in the game unless someone finds a way to punish a move with a just-frame while both standing and crouching. I don't think hitboxes are the reason why this happens cuz if u do a low move and try to just-frame punish it you won't be able to. So it looks like crouching does add an extra frame for punishing with normals. Hitboxes can still affect certain moves frame data tho (like Takeda ).

 

[infamy23]

idk I'm having Cassie do d1 and block immediately then try to counterpoke with Cassie's d1 and i can only get it to hit if i block it standing. Her d1 has 7 frame startup and is -8 on block. This is probably the easiest way to test this because u can go into block right away and u only have to hit one just-frame.

It's not random though. What you described is consistent with everything I've tested in this thread. I also just tested the scenario above and I got the exact same numbers as I did with Predator's d1.

When you stand block Cassie's d1, you can counter with a d1 on the 23rd, or 24th frame after the frame of contact. This is not actually a just frame, because even if you press the button 1 frame too early (on the 23rd frame), the move will still come out on the 24th frame and make contact 7 frames later (31st frame).

When you crouch block Cassie's d1, you cannot counter on the 23rd or 24th frame. The input buffer is removed, and 1 frame of blockstun is added. So now you can only press the button on the 25th frame, which makes it impossible to punish.

This phenomenon is consistent with everything I've tested so far. The only "random" thing I've encountered is that some moves gain 1 frame of additional startup when going from crouching to standing.

 

[ryublaze]

It's not random though. What you described is consistent with everything I've tested in this thread. I also just tested the scenario above and I got the exact same numbers as I did with Predator's d1.

When you stand block Cassie's d1, you can counter with a d1 on the 23rd, or 24th frame after the frame of contact. This is not actually a just frame, because even if you press the button 1 frame too early (on the 23rd frame), the move will still come out on the 24th frame and make contact 7 frames later (31st frame).

When you crouch block Cassie's d1, you cannot counter on the 23rd or 24th frame. The input buffer is removed, and 1 frame of blockstun is added. So now you can only press the button on the 25th frame, which makes it impossible to punish.

This phenomenon is consistent with everything I've tested so far. The only "random" thing I've encountered is that some moves gain 1 frame of additional startup when going from crouching to standing.

yea so crouch blocking adds an extra frame of blockstun lol. btw how r u testing this?

I'm not sure if going from crouching to standing adds a frame. I'm doing Raiden b1 on Sub-Zero. His b1 is -9 and if what u said about crouch to stand is true, i should only be able to punish with a 6 frame standing jab (normal + crouch block + crouch to stand = 3 extra frames). But I can punish his b1 with Sub-Zero's 7 frame standing 1 which would mean that going from crouching to standing doesn't actually add a frame.

 

[UsedForGlue]

Add this to the list of stupid shit going on in this game, such as:

1. Jumping attacks taking priority over AA normals + the pay out factor - while a jumping attack with certain characters can lead to 40+ damage, AA's tend to be in an around 20-25% from standing 1 and 2 etc, while uppercuts are 14%, both easily stuffed, making AA's a gamble that is never worth taking...AA 's are one of the most fundamental aspects of a fighting game, sadly missing in this one.

2. Block breaking costing two bars and a full stamina, pointless.

3. Breaking costing an entire bar of stamina, allowing the opponent to run right back in giving you no reward for breaking considering what it just cost you, and please don't say "be lucky you have a breaker", that doesn't fix the issue.

4. Blocked crouch advantage, which wouldn't be a big deal if characters like Liu Kang didn't have low starting moves with +1 on block D3's or B1 at 9 frames, of course being 8 frames mid when blocked crouching, because you have to.

5. Lack of real mids across the board, but plenty of special mids, which don't mean anything when the opponent is mashing d1, d2, d3, d4 neutral crouch etc, this will become a real problem when the community develops and realises you can basically neutral crouch at mid screen on tons of the cast quite a lot of the time. Also, blowing up opponents for mashing pokes when they are at a disadvantage would be great, wouldn't it? (Tempest players doing D4 after a blocked hat spin and hitting you out of a "mid" normal).

6. Unfinished and/or pointless variations, along with clear cut OP/super strong variations that work for every MU, both making the variation system a gimmick and not the MU based tool that it should be.

 

[GeTitToGeThErGrOuCh]

block stun was an awful idea