Proof That Some Attacks have more Advantage on Crouch Block

[REO]

Example 1

Above you can see Cassie poking out after Predator's 2,1 string which is neutral (0) on block with her 7 frame d+3 while standing. Predator is also performing his 7 frame d+3 after 2,1 (I didn't do his d+3 to the frame for frame advantage testing purposes, other wise Cassie's d+3 and his would be trading as they're both 7 frames). Notice how when Cassie is stand blocking and performing her d+3 that she is beating Predator's (not frame perfect) d+3 follow-up after 2,1. Now notice when Cassie is crouch blocking the string, her d+3 is getting beat out by Predator's (not frame perfect) d+3. I've tested this for more than an hour just to make sure it's accurate as possible and not a coincidence that me trying to poke out every time out of crouch was due to human error.

I think it's safe to say that (at the very least) Predator's 2,1 string has extra advantage when Cassie is crouch blocking and trying to poke out with a non reversal special.

Some notes to consider:

- Reversal specials seem to always come out at the same frame regardless of stand blocking or crouch blocking

- Could it be only certain attacks with a specific block stun have this affect? No idea. We all need to test more to find out.

- Is it character hitbox or hurtbox dependent with their moves?

- Are backdashes and jumps also affected if crouching or is it only when trying to perform a normal attack?


Example 2
Both Kung Lao's using their d+1s after blocking Kung Lao's forward+2 which is -1 on block. Notice how it's easier to poke out of when the forward+2 is blocked standing.

Example 3
Raiden trying to neutral jump after Tany's forward+2 which is -2 on block.

I have no idea if this is intentional or not. But discuss and post all normals with different block advantage on crouch here so we can compile a list.

 

[n1kosh]

I think this is hitbox. But I'm not sure whose hitbox.. Predator was not patched....

 

[daddydab32ho]

The only thing on my wish list for the final patch is for them to universally adjust the attrocious hit stun on all characters and there would be true counter poking system such as Mk9 that's all I would ask for.... I mean wouldn't you love to blow up people for mashing on negative frames? Aha and not have to remember if you blocked hi or low to do so?

 

[C88 Zombieekiler]

I think this is hitbox. But I'm not sure whose hitbox.. Predator was not patched....

Its not hitboxes because nothings whiffing its just showing that blocking certain attacks low creates more block advantage than if you were to block them high and it doesnt just happen with small characters

 

[Dirtylova]

NRS FailFish




*waits for gga guy to tell me this happens in all fighters*

 

[n1kosh]

Its not hitboxes because nothings whiffing its just showing that blocking certain attacks low creates more block advantage than if you were to block them high and it doesnt just happen with small characters

Maybe maybe.... I go try today

 

[Pig Of The Hut]

The only thing on my wish list for the final patch is for them to universally adjust the attrocious hit stun on all characters and there would be true counter poking system such as Mk9 that's all I would ask for.... I mean wouldn't you love to blow up people for mashing on negative frames? Aha and not have to remember if you blocked hi or low to do so?

I agree

the block stun is very stupid and extremely annoying

Should reward immediate reactions, not having to wait .4 sec here, .9 sec here, . 2 sec here

imo very bad decision to have it this way

 

[Eddy Wang]

There are moves that can't be punished correctly if you crouch block indeed.
Kotal's F12 comes in mind, Possibly Cage "A-list" MB Nut punch after the first he being blocked, the move is already ridiculous -12, but it feels like some attacks just have longer pushbacks if you crouch block it.

Also, the hit stun needs to be looked at, i hate the fact that someone does a negative move, but the blockstun is kind of deceptive, i input F23 for a punish while using Lao, the game tells my punish is 1 frame earlier and instead comes out F3 and the opponent blocks.

I really hope that last patch sits away for a while, there is a lot of things to be looked at, a lot of hitboxes needs to be looked at, some jump ins like Sonya J1 is fairly stupid, either trades or win, but is hardly anti-aired, on top of that, the tracking of that move is pretty good that goes all the way down hitting someone crouching even when executed fairly early, this shouldn't happen.

IMO NRS needs to tweak Jips more, attacks this good wich such hitboxes, should have less active frames, there are jump kicks with priority hitbox over normals, active frames specials and still have a good tracking which makes difficult to trip guard by running under them or ducking to avoid the active frames, seriously NRS, sit on the next patch for a while, let us breakdown the game some more, then start fixing.

 

[xInfra Deadx]

This makes punshing some low attack even more tedious. Why this is in there I have no idea.

 

[Osagri]

Noticed that u cant punish mileenas f44 with jax 11 if u croch block. If u stand block the last hitnit can be punished

 

[JTB123]

Should reward immediate reactions, not having to wait .4 sec here, .9 sec here, . 2 sec here

Worst part is that this applies to some of the most commonly used moves as well, once you account for that time you've already lost a couple of frames so -13 becomes more like -11 and so on.

 

[Braindead]

The explanation as I see it is very simple.

The animation of the 2nd hit of 21 obviously looks like an overhead, it starts from top and comes down. When the opponent is standing, they are hit in the very first frame of the animation. When they are crouching, the move takes longer duration to reach the crouching hitbox and hit it.

21 has 3 active frames, so if we assume while the opponent is blocking standing the move hits on the first frame, then the hit on crouching targets would hit in the 2nd or 3rd active frame, meaning the move would be +1 or +2 on block instead of 0.

I don't think there's anything wrong here.

I think you can prove my theory by testing strings with horizontal animations vs vertical animations. The horizontal animations shouldn't be affected by standing vs crouching, but on the distance between you and the opponent, while the vertical animations should be affected by standing vs crouching, not the distance between you and the opponent.

 

[n1kosh]

I propose to take all the characters who have d+3 7 startup and compare
Ferra\Tor
Kotal
Reptile
Scorpion
Sonya
They all have d+3 = 7 startup

 

[Braindead]

Predator is also performing his 7 frame d+3 after 2,1 (I didn't do his d+3 to the frame for frame advantage testing purposes, other wise Cassie's d+3 and his would be trading as they're both 7 frames).

Also this is not entirely true, if you did both d3s perfectly, Predator should hit first they shouldn't trade. Predator's d3 should trade with a 7f reversal or a 6f normal, not a 7f normal, because it takes 1 frame to release block.

 

[haketh]

Yeah theirs nothing really goofy happening here, the Predator string is just hitting later than it would if Cassie was standing so Predator has extra frame advantage.

 

[daddydab32ho]

I agree

the block stun is very stupid and extremely annoying

Should reward immediate reactions, not having to wait .4 sec here, .9 sec here, . 2 sec here

imo very bad decision to have it this way

Yeah exactly it's like the player who is negative shouldn't be rewarded they should be punished and vice versa like c'mon man... You should be rewarded after blocking and they're negative .... I'm sure they will fix it...

 

[REO]

Example 2:

 

[n1kosh]

I tried it and I think the reason is simple:
1. 0 on block gives equal chances both characters (no matter sitting or standing)
2. Game is based on the computation of motion, therefore, the advantage is that someone figures below
In this case, Сassie has less active frames 2 vs 3 Predator's

 

[buyacushun]

The explanation as I see it is very simple.

The animation of the 2nd hit of 21 obviously looks like an overhead, it starts from top and comes down. When the opponent is standing, they are hit in the very first frame of the animation. When they are crouching, the move takes longer duration to reach the crouching hitbox and hit it.

21 has 3 active frames, so if we assume while the opponent is blocking standing the move hits on the first frame, then the hit on crouching targets would hit in the 2nd or 3rd active frame, meaning the move would be +1 or +2 on block instead of 0.

I don't think there's anything wrong here.

I think you can prove my theory by testing strings with horizontal animations vs vertical animations. The horizontal animations shouldn't be affected by standing vs crouching, but on the distance between you and the opponent, while the vertical animations should be affected by standing vs crouching, not the distance between you and the opponent.

Sounds about right. Still feels wrong in a game design sort of way. Quick things like jab strings should have universal stuns. Makes the game feel more tedious when you have to recognize quick strings just to punish correctly or have good advantage. It's bad enough trying to block with certain mixups. Though I will say I'm ok with things like slides or long one off normals or specials getting better advantage due to spacing. Those are usually easy to react and have more to do with your opponent's spacing rather than what you're doing.

 

[n1kosh]

You need to be in training mode, you can put a blow after the attack and not special. To check this..... but it's not in the game

 

[MadeFromMetal]

So does this mean all moves that hit low have +2 frames of block advantage? Or did they already compensate for moves that hit low with in game frame data?

 

[Pig Of The Hut]

Yeah exactly it's like the player who is negative shouldn't be rewarded they should be punished and vice versa like c'mon man... You should be rewarded after blocking and they're negative .... I'm sure they will fix it...

I'm 10000% confident the block stun garbage will not be fixed

 

[Pig Of The Hut]

Example 2:

@colt is this true

Example is Kenshi standing 1 +2 on stand block but +4 on crouch block?

 

[Asodimazze]

The explanation as I see it is very simple.

The animation of the 2nd hit of 21 obviously looks like an overhead, it starts from top and comes down. When the opponent is standing, they are hit in the very first frame of the animation. When they are crouching, the move takes longer duration to reach the crouching hitbox and hit it.

21 has 3 active frames, so if we assume while the opponent is blocking standing the move hits on the first frame, then the hit on crouching targets would hit in the 2nd or 3rd active frame, meaning the move would be +1 or +2 on block instead of 0.

I don't think there's anything wrong here.

I think you can prove my theory by testing strings with horizontal animations vs vertical animations. The horizontal animations shouldn't be affected by standing vs crouching, but on the distance between you and the opponent, while the vertical animations should be affected by standing vs crouching, not the distance between you and the opponent.

I don't think this explanation is right, because in your case even the reversal specials should be influenced and come out later, but REO said they work the same regardless of how you block the move.

 

[Ashenar]

Above you can see Cassie poking out after Predator's 2,1 string which is neutral (0) on block with her 7 frame d+3 while standing. Predator is also performing his 7 frame d+3 after 2,1 (I didn't do his d+3 to the frame for frame advantage testing purposes, other wise Cassie's d+3 and his would be trading as they're both 7 frames). Notice how when Cassie is stand blocking and performing her d+3 that she is beating Predator's (not frame perfect) d+3 follow-up after 2,1. Now notice when Cassie is crouch blocking the string, her d+3 is getting beat out by Predator's (not frame perfect) d+3. I've tested this for more than an hour just to make sure it's accurate as possible and not a coincidence that me trying to poke out every time out of crouch was due to human error.

I think it's safe to say that (at the very least) Predator's 2,1 string has extra advantage when Cassie is crouch blocking and trying to poke out with a non reversal special.

Some notes to consider:

- Reversal specials seem to always come out at the same frame regardless of stand blocking or crouch blocking

- Could it be only certain attacks with a specific block stun have this affect? No idea. We all need to test more to find out.

- Is it character hitbox or hurtbox dependent?

- Are backdashes and jumps also affected if crouching or is it only when trying to perform a normal attack?


I have no idea if this is intentional or not. But discuss.

It's because the last hit is hitting at a the last frames of the string instead of hitting on the first strings. This is similar to Green lantern not being able to punish harley's cartwheel while crouch blocking but when stand blocking he could. For some reason since the string is neutral its neutral on stand blocking characters because the last normal hits at its original starting point when the second hit connects on crouch its actually on its final frames of recovery.