Discussion Patches overwhelmingly help NRS games not hurt them

[Brown Cow 54]

Also I'm more of the mind that they should buff characters up to the top tier status before nerfing anyone. And we have a good idea of which characters need buffs. I simply don't think anything needs nerfing yet except maybe jin bojitsu. Quan Chi is done once you corner him.

 

[Scoot Magee]

If you really look at it, most of the time people aren't complaining, crying, whining, or ranting. People justsay they are when they aren't.

Towards the end of MK9, I said that one of the best things they could do is to somehow have move specific damage reset timers, so they could tweak properties of individual moves and remove kinks and bugs without having to worry about how it would F up other things. It may be impractical, but I still feel this way.

@Scoot Magee I stand by what I said. His range is better. His jump in is better. He is safer. 11 ji2 11 ji2 11 ji2 11 ji2. there are videos showing his jump in punch stuffing rmor. So yes. also better block strings.

Youcan think scorpion is better, that's fine. But I disagree.

You've seen videos and I've played against actual good kj players.

Scorpion 214 fbc 214 string is insane, it completely jails and you can only block. . Fbc makes so many normals better and hit confirmable into combo as well as leading to massive chip and meter gain.

 

[Slymind]

Usually NRS does two major patches before sealing the deal(not counting hotfixes), i heard that PSN and XLive have some barriers that, after two patches you have to pay a fee to keep patching or something like that, so if this time around they got 2 shots again, they better make it count, so it's better to gather the most amount of information before doing anything.

With that being said, EVO is not far, and i just hope not to see a Kung Jin/Quan-Chi fanfare, too early to tell i know, but i can't be the only one that this early in the game's life that is already tired of seeing Kung Jin(it would be better if at the least his other 2 variations were used).

 

[CrimsonShadow]

People don't understand. It is not about whether something is beatable or not, it's about making a better game.

It really doesnt take a genius to figure this out.

Echoing this because this is the point that most people are missing. It's not just about whether you "can win"; it's about producing a competitive environment with better and more diverse gameplay. The patches to Injustice unquestionably resulted in a far more varied experience and allowed the game's more interesting mechanics to come to the forefront.

Now as of right now, we don't know the full extent of what's overly powerful -- so we should merely be adding things to the 'watch' list. But by EVO in Injustice we knew exactly what was going to dominate the prepatch game and it didn't change until the game was rebalanced in Oct. Anyone claiming otherwise is willingly ignoring the truth.

 

[EMPEROR_THEO]

The amount of patches are not what hurt a game at a competetive level (for the most part). Its the length of support.

 

[STB Shujinkydink]

@GGA Jeremiah id be interested in seeing the mk9 notes as well to see what kind of evolution NRS has made. Seems they get smarter with every game.


I'm waiting for the inevitable quan nerf. I just hope they look at the whole character to make sure they don't over nerf. His defensiveoptions really are lacking and too strong of an adjustment to his aggression may render him too helpless. Excited and trusting of decisions to Come

 

[Rude]

Maybe if they waited longer to patch there would have been less negative changes. I don't think it could hurt to wait a longer amount of time before making final decisions. I'm not a fan of machine gun patches within a course of 6 months before letting the game evolve. We could have been left with a much better game if they waited longer and made one balance patch.

I'm not against speaking about game balance but patching so early on unless it's something totally broken should not happen. People do speak out about what they want patched and etc but 9 times out of 10 it's somebody that's ignorant to a lot of other things in the game.

The more we know about the game the better a patch could be.

...you didn't actually read the OP, did you?

 

[Scoot Magee]

If you really look at it, most of the time people aren't complaining, crying, whining, or ranting. People justsay they are when they aren't.

Towards the end of MK9, I said that one of the best things they could do is to somehow have move specific damage reset timers, so they could tweak properties of individual moves and remove kinks and bugs without having to worry about how it would F up other things. It may be impractical, but I still feel this way.

@Scoot Magee I stand by what I said. His range is better. His jump in is better. He is safer. 11 ji2 11 ji2 11 ji2 11 ji2. there are videos showing his jump in punch stuffing rmor. So yes. also better block strings. Not to mention tht's one of the easiest things to hit confirm into 40%, plus if you decide to, you can make it a completely safe 50/50. Scorpion has 50/50s too, but they aren't completely safe.

Youcan think scorpion is better, that's fine. But I disagree.

Sonya though.. she's really..... really good.

Also 11 J2 whiffs on cr block and is punished by a full combo.

 

[Rude]

Which patch is the one that'll help prevent Sonicfox from winning everything?

On a serious note patches can be good but should continue on for at least a full year of the games life. Some things get over looked like Batgirls infinite and Harley's B3 b3 clash able and hot fixes are more of a band aid then a real solution. *See any tourney that had to deal with hot fix issues. Which was a lot and cost a butt load of time and caused pools/matches to not be streamed. And set tournies back a good amount of time. Not really nrs's fault but still.

Patches keep things fresh. Tiers adjust and you see more character variety for the most part.

The Batgirl Flying Bat uppercut infinite was hotfixed as soon as it was revealed.

 

[Sultani]

You've seen videos and I've played against actual good kj players.

Scorpion 214 fbc 214 string is insane, it completely jails and you can only block. . Fbc makes so many normals better and hit confirmable into combo as well as leading to massive chip and meter gain.

We'll pretend I've never played a good kung jin and scorpion. That scorpion pressure is good, and its easily hit confirmable as well, but my opinion is simply that kj is better in this regard because the 50/50 you can cancel his pressure into is safe.

I'll take a look at that ji2 wiffing on crouch as well.

This discussion is off topic though, and we can at least agree that both are good characters.

 

[SaltShaker]

I know my character is very good. I've been very vocal about this. I'm trying to help people understand the game more. The thing is the game is 2 weeks old. Who's to say in a few days a better character wont emerge? This shit happened in other games already.

In the end the more understanding of the game we have the better a patch can be. Little changes along the way lessen our understanding of the overall balance.

Also your post proves that with time and effort you don't necessarily need a patch to win.

I agree for the most part with this. I do think, well I know for a fact some people are withholding tech in fear of getting their character nerfed, so it is quite possible things could dramatically change as more tournaments roll around.

My personal opinion on patches, is that one should be done about a month after release to rectify some character imbalances that we are seeing, and hope that it was done well enough to run through Evo. Or if there has to be one more let it be late May/early June. I really don't want my character being adjusted right before I get to CEO or Evo.

You make a great point. I still remember in Soul Caliber when Hilde was "garbage F tier" by the community, literally in her own F Tier for the 1st few months of the game when the first tier list came out. Then everyone found the swoop combos and she was so overpowered that she had to be banned from tournaments.

Though I still think a couple need a tone down, or guys like Shinnok need a tune up sooner than later.

 

[Skeezer12]

I love this Thread .

 

[Scoot Magee]

...you didn't actually read the OP, did you?

I actually did and I totally agree with open discussion. My comment was mainly directed at the section of unfair nerfs early in the games life. This is why I feel so strongly about waiting longer and aquiring more info on the game before patching.

 

[Reauxbot]

I think scorpion is arguably better than Kung jin and he doesn't get as much hate.

Well the vortex of course. Its pretty easy reacting to Scorpions over head tho. And his wake ups suck. Ive blocked low on Scorpions. Punish slide and teleport. Some use get away teleport or i get the punish. Its those bold wake up grabbing fuckers that surprise me.
Id say Kung Jin has some pretty good wakeups. Come outta nowhere too.

 

[YOMI MITYEAP]

Im actually interested in the opinions of a well respected high level player. And you technically commented foo
Itd be a help to help with some insight rather than view the fighting from a distance like Goku does before all his fights *cough* Lord Beerus

My opinion would make too many salty, trust me it would just be a back and forth affair haha. Then ppl would make senseless false claims/ inferences from what I say (this has happened in the past). I will just let the same cycle run its course and laugh at how foolish threads like these will look down the road

 

[Saltea Moonspell]

This is good, although I hope that NRS will pay close attention and support the game way better then injustice and MK9 all together, cause the game may live really long and with those two previous games community has a tones of experience and knowledge that will support the process of improvement.

Looking at SF, SF4 was/is on the tournament scene like forever! Now after all these years they step in with SFV. If NRS wants to stay on the top tournament FG they need to get their shit together and provide.

 

[Rude]

Everyone is talking about Kung Jin. I have said it before and will continue saying it: "Swarm Queen D'Vorah will be a problem." No one is talking about her, but she's absoluty ridiculous.

Just wait and see.

 

[Scoot Magee]

Well the vortex of course. Its pretty easy reacting to Scorpions over head tho. And his wake ups suck. Ive blocked low on Scorpions. Punish slide and teleport. Some use get away teleport or i get the punish. Its those bold wake up grabbing fuckers that surprise me.
Id say Kung Jin has some pretty good wakeups. Come outta nowhere too.

Yes his f4 is slow but it can work with conditioning. Regardless he's enough of a threat without f4. Also I wouldn't say his wakeups suck. They're actually very good imo. Just because you can crouch block both doesnt make them bad.

What do you do when scorpion doesn't wake up? If you're sitting and blocking the pressure will go in his favor.

 

[SaltShaker]

You must really think Kung Jin is OP, as yesterday you did this exact same thing.

Just because somebody downplays a (in your opinion) strong character doesn't mean that they main that character , different people play different characters and thus have completely different experiences when fighting against said characters.

I know you're not calling for nerfs though, you just want to discuss it. And you are indeed correct: the real question is "who is your main?" because everything in terms of balance changes from there.

I have a very hard time believing that someone can think Kung Jin isn't overly ridiculous in this game unless A) they main him, or B) they haven't faced a really good one. Character has every aspect of fighting as a huge strength in every possible way the game allows other than full screen zoning, which he has if you switch variations. Hell he even does ultra easy near 40% meterless damage off his safe 50/50's, more than my 1 bar Kano combos lol.

What I think people confuse is that I never agree with destroying a character, but some things are plain obvious and should be toned down. Using Injustice for example, Aquaman nerfs couldn't have come any faster. They were much needed and obvious from Week 1, and after he was "nerfed", he was still a Top 4 character in a 30 character game.

That's why I think it should be a discussion. Some things do need to be toned down like Jin, some can toned up like Shinnok, and some MU's can be grinded for better success in the future like my Quan Chi example.

 

[RiBBz22]

The biggest F Up in my opinion over the life of Injustice (outside of making Scorpion completely worthless, but I would call that the fault of the community) were the dash buffs to Bane and Flash. Both totally unnecessary. In my opinion Killer Frost vs Bane went from a 7-3 in Killer Frost's favor to a 5-5 or 4-6 MU in Bane's favor and that is really a blatant sign of unnecessary patching.

 

[Reauxbot]

My opinion would make too many salty, trust me it would just be a back and forth affair haha. Then ppl would make senseless false claims/ inferences from what I say (this has happened in the past). I will just let the same cycle run its course and laugh at how foolish threads like these will look down the road

Well its just a general discussion. Its everyone's insight and thoughts. Everyone can get better even with the smallest thoughts. I just dont want them tinkering with Cassie. Maybe all the postive frames from ex nut punch is quite a bit. But i spent a bar of meter for that in return.

But anyways. If its just a salty remark just ignore it. :/

 

[Scoot Magee]

Everyone is talking about Kung Jin. I have said it before and will continue saying it: "Swarm Queen D'Vorah will be a problem." No one is talking about her, but she's absoluty ridiculous.

Just wait and see.

This is kind of what I was getting at with my post. People call for changes and patches happen before things are actually mainstream.

 

[chemist4hire]

Everyone is talking about Kung Jin. I have said it before and will continue saying it: "Swarm Queen D'Vorah will be a problem." No one is talking about her, but she's absoluty ridiculous.

Just wait and see.

These are not the droids you are looking for...

 

[YOMI MITYEAP]

Well its just a general discussion. Its everyone's insight and thoughts. Everyone can get better even with the smallest thoughts. I just dont want them tinkering with Cassie. Maybe all the postive frames from ex nut punch is quite a bit. But i spent a bar of meter for that in return.

But anyways. If its just a salty remark just ignore it. :/

How about this, while the OP is talking about all the "good things" that came from patches (subjective of course) how about what the patches did not do? Simple example, why did jade and stryker not get buffs they needed to be competitive? Why did green arrow and ares not get the tools they needed for characters like MMH so they wouldn't get pummeled in those matchups? Why was kabal allowed to keep his 6f iagb when it was obvious it could have been toned down to the lvl of other iafb in mk9 and still be good? How about aquamans trident rush not getting nerfed? My list can keep going on haha, like I said the OP is clearly looking for something with this thread and I am not falling for it.

 

[SaltShaker]

Everyone is talking about Kung Jin. I have said it before and will continue saying it: "Swarm Queen D'Vorah will be a problem." No one is talking about her, but she's absoluty ridiculous.

Just wait and see.

I don't because she's #1 on my "if I have to switch characters" list.