Discussion Patches overwhelmingly help NRS games not hurt them

[coolwhip]

Nah, I think it was perfectly fine for a Cyrax D4 on hit to lead to a guessing game in which he can either command throw you into guaranteed death or full combo you into guaranteed death. That totally should have stayed in the game. Patching is bad.

 

[Scoot Magee]

The problem is that NRS does not beta test their games. So in effect the first 6 months of the game, becomes the beta test. When it is all said and done and people have learned the final version of the game and the not so obvious broken things are found, there are no more patches for the things that should be fixed. This results in people eagerly moving on to the next game because they no longer want to deal with what feels like an unfinished game.

They did do more extensive testing this time around. I was always an advocate of sound pre release testing to prevent shit like this.

 

[coolwhip]

Does anyone really think anything needs a nerf in this game yet? I've heard a lot about Summoner Quan's impossible to block bullshit, but what else is truly "broken"?

NRS should be focused on helping seemingly low tier characters like Kitana and Kenshi with buffs.

You don't need something to be "broken" to nerf it. Superman's f23 was not broken per se, but it was clearly overpowered. In fairness, there doesn't seem to be something as good in MKX quite yet, infinites notwithstanding (though as tournaments start rolling we'll get a better idea), but then again, it's not like something needs to be f23 levels of good to warrant a nerf.

LBSH, most of the anti-patching thing is either A) agenda driven from people who main characters they don't want to see nerfed or B) people who are just against patches early as a concept so they're sticking to their guns regardless. In other words, you hear someone talk about something potentially being too good and instead of counter-arguing why that may or may not be the case, the argument is always "it's too soon."

PS: Nobody is dumb enough not to see the agendas. Hyping up a certain character that you don't main just to take attention away from the character you do under the "you just don't know" argument doesn't fly. Nobody's that dumb. Well, some people are. But most aren't. Example: "Cassie's fine...but what really worries me is tempest Lao. ex spin punishes everything." The fuck outta here.

PPS: The above is not directed at the poster I quoted, obviously.

 

[Name v.5.0]

You don't need something to be "broken" to nerf it. Superman's f23 was not broken per se, but it was clearly overpowered. In fairness, there doesn't seem to be something as good in MKX quite yet, infinites notwithstanding (though as tournaments start rolling we'll get a better idea), but then again, it's not like something needs to be f23 levels of good to warrant a nerf.

Technically, F23, Breath was broken. Grundy couldnt get out of it in the corner. It was an infinite on him.

 

[Juggs]

Exactly. Discussion is what's needed to actually help explore what's in the game. People always use Kung jin as an example of what needs to be nerfed when there's characters way fucking better than him in the game.

Which characters are those? Other than Quan Chi of course.

 

[Scoot Magee]

Which characters are those? Other than Quan Chi of course.

Drone sonya is pretty fucked up and Kitna has a corner infinite.

I'm terms of match ups there's a lot of characters that hang with Kung jin. He just seems to be everyone's main focus.

 

[Barrogh]

The problem is that NRS does not beta test their games. So in effect the first 6 months of the game, becomes the beta test. When it is all said and done and people have learned the final version of the game and the not so obvious broken things are found, there are no more patches for the things that should be fixed. This results in people eagerly moving on to the next game because they no longer want to deal with what feels like an unfinished game.

In my humble opinion, this is the only effective way of testing such games though. The problem is that 6 months are not enough to balance a FG.
What should be happening (IMO, again) is what MikeZ and his team did: they released early build of their game, then worked their asses out for like 2 years finding broken stuff and tweaking balance, as well as adding new content that was on schedule. And they still release patches every like 2 weeks (sometimes it was daily) with detailed changelogs and links to sources that reported each problem that got addressed.
To annoy people less with constant patching, they created 2 version of the game: stable that is updated every like 6 months, and an "endless beta" that gets all the patches asap. Don't know about other platforms, but for Steam it worked well. It helps that the game has a lot of features to help with the game being playable everywhere, including shortcuts for hitboxes and keyboards, GGPO and ability to run on a toaster.
They have gotten great results, and dare I say, their game has more complicated interactions in-game than MK due to assist system.

 

[Sultani]

Does anyone really think anything needs a nerf in this game yet? I've heard a lot about Summoner Quan's impossible to block bullshit, but what else is truly "broken"?

NRS should be focused on helping seemingly low tier characters like Kitana and Kenshi with buffs.

The only thing i think could be slightly toned down is the +52 on ex nut punch. Having advantage is totally fine because thats how ex nut punch has always been, and i dont think it should be nerfed into oblivion, but plus 52 is, in my opinion a little overboard, plus that advantage isnt changed with time or knowledge.

I wish people would abandon the mindset that top players make the best testers as well. Alot of the bugs and glitches were given ample time to be discovered and curtailed before release. A competitive player bodying scrub developers for 3 months isn't a good way to test things.

 

[Big Pampering]

People don't understand. It is not about whether something is beatable or not, it's about making a better game.

It really doesnt take a genius to figure this out.

 

[Reauxbot]

Good thing i played MvC2 and UMvC3. both those games were broken into a sense it gelt balanced. If you had one broken team(or cheap) vs another broken team(or cheap) then jt technically felt balanced. Some characters had insane rushdown and mixups while some had incredible keepaway. And that made it feel quite fair. All games have some characters that will Never shine. Thats that. As they will have that one ass ripping monster. All fighting games do. I can accept that.

Mkx has better potential though. They did a nice job with some strings and frame data. Kung Jin has safe mixups. Either make it like a fair amount of negative frames then. I dont feel there is anything too wrong with MKX at all which is why i love the game already and feel ill play it serious.

Im not mad about any characters. Its just that one wrong patch and ill probably lose interest in a lot of characters or the game itself. Injustice was something i had this problem with. Nrs catering. Then when the good patch came around the game was dead. Ive been very loyal to fighting games like SF and MvC even though i barely played SF over a total of a year.
Mkx has the potential to be left alone and be ok. Just a few negative frames here and there and im content.
People forget having fun and playing smart can overrun the salt

 

[Reauxbot]

The only thing i think could be slightly toned down is the +52 on ex nut punch. Having advantage is totally fine because thats how ex nut punch has always been, and i dont think it should be nerfed into oblivion, but plus 52 is, in my opinion a little overboard, plus that advantage isnt changed with time or knowledge.

I wish people would abandon the mindset that top players make the best testers as well. Alot of the bugs and glitches were given ample time to be discovered and curtailed before release. A competitive player bodying scrub developers for 3 months isn't a good way to test things.

Well Scorpions is a like 18f advantage. A little over what his over head frames are.
Im good with 18f heheheh

 

[WakeUp DP]

This should be front paged!

 

[Awsumpossm]

Kitna has a corner infinite.

shhhhhhh

 

[Scoot Magee]

I think scorpion is arguably better than Kung jin and he doesn't get as much hate.

 

[Sultani]

Good thing i played MvC2 and UMvC3. both those games were broken into a sense it gelt balanced. If you had one broken team(or cheap) vs another broken team(or cheap) then jt technically felt balanced. Some characters had insane rushdown and mixups while some had incredible keepaway. And that made it feel quite fair. All games have some characters that will Never shine. Thats that. As they will have that one ass ripping monster. All fighting games do. I can accept that.

Mkx has better potential though. They did a nice job with some strings and frame data. Kung Jin has safe mixups. Either make it like a fair amount of negative frames then. I dont feel there is anything too wrong with MKX at all which is why i love the game already and feel ill play it serious.

Im not mad about any characters. Its just that one wrong patch and ill probably lose interest in a lot of characters or the game itself. Injustice was something i had this problem with. Nrs catering. Then when the good patch came around the game was dead. Ive been very loyal to fighting games like SF and MvC even though i barely played SF over a total of a year.
Mkx has the potential to be left alone and be ok. Just a few negative frames here and there and im content.
People forget having fun and playing smart can overrun the salt

There are situations where playing smart and reacting correctly dont work because of bugs.

its not a stretch to blame bad testing. How could they not test whether or not a d1 hits from point blank range?

There are still people that will mind blowingly defend that with the "game is new" argument, or "lol salt" because it's the cool kid reply.

Most of the time people aren't complaining, they are pointing obvious bugs. People act like there's some sort of acceptable time frame where bugs cant be identified early after release.

 

[WakeUp DP]

People don't understand. It is not about whether something is beatable or not, it's about making a better game.

It really doesnt take a genius to figure this out.

Most fighting video games aren't as simple as some people make them out to be.

MKX so far seems to have a lot of depth to it. Very complex, lots of mechanics, I'm always finding counters for just about anything in the game.

Dont like dealing with heavy pressure? Pushblock or break!

Wake ups have no invincibility? Armor!

Suck at counter poking? Armor!

Opponet is frozen but full screen? Run!

Want to extend damage on combos? EH a move to continue the juggle!

Bad at AA'ing and footsies in general? Armor!

Cant open defensive players up? Safe 50/50s add EH move unreactable mix ups etc.

 

[SaltShaker]

Drone sonya is pretty fucked up and Kitna has a corner infinite.

I'm terms of match ups there's a lot of characters that hang with Kung jin. He just seems to be everyone's main focus.

Everyone agrees an infinite should be patched. That isn't part of the discussion.

You are saying so many characters are being overlooked who are as powerful as Kung Jin or even MORE powerful. Really??? There were characters that could "hang" with Cyrax, MMH, Batgirl, and Kabal but it doesn't mean they didn't need one more patch. Who are all these characters as good as Kung Jin? I see about two characters semi-comparable but at least they HAVE a weakness or two, and aren't overly beefy in almost every area. Like Quan Chi for example, who is so utterly free on wake and pressure that once people get better they'll have ways to deal with him. How is Kung Jin comparable to anyone when he has everything in every way and overly beefy attributes?

Actually the real question is, who is your main in MKX? Kung Jin?

 

[Sultani]

I think scorpion is arguably better than Kung jin and he doesn't get as much hate.

He has way less range, less block strings, a worse jump in, and hes less safe.

 

[Alucard]

I think scorpion is arguably better than Kung jin and he doesn't get as much hate.

That's because if you hate on scorpion Boon will destroy you. Ez combos for resets no meter? It's k cause he is the face of MK

 

[Scoot Magee]

Everyone agrees an infinite should be patched. That isn't part of the discussion.

You are saying so many characters are being overlooked who are as powerful as Kung Jin or even MORE powerful. Really??? There were characters that could "hang" with Cyrax, MMH, Batgirl, and Kabal but it doesn't mean they didn't need one more patch. Who are all these characters as good as Kung Jin? I see about two characters semi-comparable but at least they HAVE a weakness or two, and aren't overly beefy in almost every area. Like Quan Chi for example, who is so utterly free on wake and pressure that once people get better they'll have ways to deal with him. How is Kung Jin comparable to anyone when he has everything in every way and overly beefy attributes?

Actually the real question is, who is your main in MKX? Kung Jin?

I didn't say don't patch the game. I said wait till the game evolves more before making final decisions on a patch.

I main scorpion and I think he's better than Kung jin.

 

[Scoot Magee]

That's because if you hate on scorpion Boon will destroy you. Ez combos for resets no meter? It's k cause he is the face of MK

His best variation imo is hellfire and it's more execution heavy than his other variations.

 

[Shady]

Here is the problem I see. One, is NRS is really quick to react without really evaluating everything. Recently, there was a video posted about Kitana glave having a weird hitbox on characters. But, it wasn't really a universal issue and it mattered on smaller hitbox characters only and only out of certain strings. NRS patched it, and now Kitana has a corner infinite. Well done.

This is why people don't want quick patches, they don't want devs to rush to fix something just to fuck up the next thing. That's just the reality of the way NRS does patching. They do a lot up front, without letting the meta-game develop and others find things and figure things out. Then they just let it go and you're kind of stuck with what you got. That really sucks for us in the long run. I will take a quick, early patch but only if they also promise to commit to patching a year into the game's life.

To be fair, I think the early patches should only fix the infinites if anything. The actual broken shit, and then let the game go for a bit to see who figures what out and finds some other dirt. The actual big patch should be maybe 4-5 months into the life of the game. This is what stealthpatches and quickfixes are for. For early balance and fixing. Everything else should be addressed when it needs to.

 

[Alucard]

His best variation imo is hellfire and it's more execution heavy than his other variations.

Inferno is what i'm talkin bout, but just because it requires more execution than the others he has doesn't make it not easy

 

[Reauxbot]

There are situations where playing smart and reacting correctly dont work because of bugs.

its not a stretch to blame bad testing. How could they not test whether or not a d1 hits from point blank range?

There are still people that will mind blowingly defend that with the "game is new" argument, or "lol salt" because it's the cool kid reply.

Most of the time people aren't complaining, they are pointing obvious bugs. People act like there's some sort of acceptable time frame where bugs cant be identified early after release.

Bugs and glitches like that i expect to be fixed at some point early on in the game. And if not its a big what the fuck moment.


You refering to the Ermac Spectral meter glitch everyone was cool with at first and then magically came to their senses lol.
All that gets fixed. I feel like there are some character bugs, glitches and infinites along with slight stupid frame data. But most of that gets fixed. However. KJ does get some off the wall damage for nothing. But at least blocking punishes.. Kinda. Some mixups that are safe are blah. I can punish Erron Black. Or the ones im playing are dumb. They always throw sand after. But its punishable. So i dont mind. Its stuff that either is safe or theyre mashing after amd i get punished for a read..

 

[Scoot Magee]

Inferno is what i'm talkin bout, but just because it requires more execution than the others he has doesn't make it not easy

Yeah it was obvious you were speaking about inferno. It's the variation most scorpions play. Imo hellfire execution is not that hard with practice but it definitely takes more execution than inferno.