MK9 & NEC Discussion: Ft. R.E.O., AtK, & Clark

[Soul Bound X]

And no matter what cage player plays that mu, whether its a good player, or an average player, or one of the best in the world, they all look the same in that mu. You can't tell them apart when they play against kenshi. They all just look helpless. Once the kenshi player has adapted, the cage player doesn't. There comes a point in that mu where there is no improvement he can make. He just has to keep taking the beating. Its a helpless mu. Its not 7-3 . Calling it 8-2 is generous i think

 

[Matix218]

And no matter what cage player plays that mu, whether its a good player, or an average player, or one of the best in the world, they all look the same in that mu. You can't tell them apart when they play against kenshi. They all just look helpless. Once the kenshi player has adapted, the cage player doesn't. There comes a point in that mu where there is no improvement he can make. He just has to keep taking the beating. Its a helpless mu. Its not 7-3 . Calling it 8-2 is generous i think

Kenshi definitely has the most "domination" matchups in the game. He destroys any character that does not have special mobility (or armor) tools and has to just "get in" the conventional way

 

[STRYKIE]

No. The first match might be 8-2 . The first match for whatever reason is usually winnable. But after the kenshi player adapts....*snip*

The first match? Dude, what the hell lol? Matchup numbers are based on how many games on average you're likely to take in a set of 10, not variable ratios. Some habits might stick out more than others with time (which is entirely player dependent and can work both ways regardless of the given matchup, a Kenshi player who jumps a lot doesn't suddenly make the matchup Cage's advantage), but the fundamental gameplan isn't any different whether it's the first game or the seventh.

 

[Soul Bound X]

The first match? Dude, what the hell lol? Matchup numbers are based on how many games on average you're likely to take in a set of 10, not variable ratios. Some habits might stick out more than others with time (which is entirely player dependent and can work both ways regardless of the given matchup, a Kenshi player who jumps a lot doesn't suddenly make the matchup Cage's advantage), but the fundamental gameplan isn't any different whether it's the first game or the seventh.

I was only saying that alot of kenshis play the first match a little worst then the next ones. It was just a detail. It didn't really mean anything or have much of a point to it. Lol. I just said it in a dumb way. Forget I said it. Yeah, I know how mu numbers work. I don't think cage should ever win, i think its 10-0 .

 

[Mr. Mileena]

I miss these conversations that involve MK.

Mu numbers, tier placements, etc.

 

[STRYKIE]

I was only saying that alot of kenshis play the first match a little worst then the next ones. It was just a detail. It didn't really mean anything or have much of a point to it. Lol. I just said it in a dumb way. Forget I said it. Yeah, I know how mu numbers work. I don't think cage should ever win, i think its 10-0 .

Okay, well, against Kenshi players who are dropping matches exclusively under those circumstances, chances are you will be taking more than 2 games. But those kind of matchup assessment is irrelevant at high level. Like every other character against Cage, it's impossible to know what Cage is going to do with his strings 100% of the time, Sub-Zero doesn't even have that yomi to entertain against Kenshi since all of his normals up close have a variable scenario where there's no reason not to press buttons at some point (with the 'hit and run' ice clone facade already out of the question for obvious reasons). So as far as it being 10-0 and Cage never being able to take a game on paper, it's definitely not Lex/Zod. Again, even under a different system where it is 10-0, we can't then take the Sub/Kenshi matchup and start talking negative figures.

 

[Soul Bound X]

Okay, well, against Kenshi players who are dropping matches exclusively under those circumstances, chances are you will be taking more than 2 games. But those kind of matchup assessment is irrelevant at high level. Like every other character against Cage, it's impossible to know what Cage is going to do with his strings 100% of the time, Sub-Zero doesn't even have that yomi to entertain against Kenshi since all of his normals up close have a variable scenario where there's no reason not to press buttons at some point (with the 'hit and run' ice clone facade already out of the question for obvious reasons). So as far as it being 10-0 and Cage never being able to take a game on paper, it's definitely not Lex/Zod.

His strings don't matter if he can't get in. Cage doesn't have a good way to get in. And when he does, if he does, kenshi always has armor.

 

[STRYKIE]

His strings don't matter if he can't get in. Cage doesn't have a good way to get in. And when he does, if he does, kenshi always has armor.

Didn't say he does, but armor is not going to stuff EX nutpunch, which gives some leeway to keep Kenshi locked up. It's still not adequate risk/reward, but when I said there's no aspect of the matchup that Cage has the upper hand in, I didn't literally mean he can't press a button lol.

 

[Soul Bound X]

Didn't say he does, but armor is not going to stuff EX nutpunch, which gives some leeway to keep Kenshi locked up. It's still not adequate risk/reward, but when I said there's no aspect of the matchup that Cage has the upper hand in, I didn't literally mean he can't press a button lol.

His buttons don't do anything useful in the mu. If I'm the kenshi player and the cage player happens to get in, i could care less about ex nut punch. I'm not going to panic what so ever. I think the shoulder charge is the main thing that keeps this match up from being winnable for cage. It's other things too. But that shoulder charge just really kills him in this mu. If I had the ability to remove one move from kenshi as a cage player, I'd take away his shoulder charge. If kenshi didn't have that, cage might could win. But as of now, against a good kenshi, I see it as unwinnable.

 

[Phosferrax]

His buttons don't do anything useful in the mu. If I'm the kenshi player and the cage player happens to get in, i could care less about ex nut punch. I'm not going to panic what so ever. I think the shoulder charge is the main thing that keeps this match up from being winnable for cage. It's other things too. But that shoulder charge just really kills him in this mu. If I had the ability to remove one move from kenshi as a cage player, I'd take away his shoulder charge. If kenshi didn't have that, cage might could win. But as of now, against a good kenshi, I see it as unwinnable.

If Kenshi didn't have shoulder charge he'd be a much worse character. If he didn't have that then he would barely be in the top 10 discussion.

 

[Soul Bound X]

If Kenshi didn't have shoulder charge he'd be a much worse character. If he didn't have that then he would barely be in the top 10 discussion.

This is also true.

I'm not saying it should be taken out. I'm just saying if cage is religous, and idk if he is or not, he prays to god every night before bed asking him to please remove kenshis shoulder charge move so he might have a chance.

 

[STRYKIE]

His buttons don't do anything useful in the mu. If I'm the kenshi player and the cage player happens to get in, i could care less about ex nut punch. I'm not going to panic what so ever. I think the shoulder charge is the main thing that keeps this match up from being winnable for cage. It's other things too. But that shoulder charge just really kills him in this mu. If I had the ability to remove one move from kenshi as a cage player, I'd take away his shoulder charge. If kenshi didn't have that, cage might could win. But as of now, against a good kenshi, I see it as unwinnable.

I don't mean to sound like a condescending prick, but have you ever considered that you're not good enough of a Cage player? If anyone has a reason to preach about this matchup, it's Dizzy, the guy has lost four-figure sums on the matchup in tournament and not even he would say it's systematically unwinnable.

At the end of the day, this is the difference between a heavy disadvantage matchup (starting at 7:14), and an unwinnable one (I'd like to point out that I'm not posting this because Dizzy eventually won, but to demonstrate it's still possible to make reads against said disadvantages):

This is an unwinnable matchup where you have zero options whatsoever that remedy the fundamental problem:

Comprende? I'm done here.

Kenshi definitely has the most "domination" matchups in the game. He destroys any character that does not have special mobility (or armor) tools and has to just "get in" the conventional way

Not 100% true. Shang and Noob have neither those of things, at least not with notoriety and do well. Forcing yourself to get in against Kenshi is an ill-fated premise (unless you literally have no choice like Cage) and probably explains why a lot of pocket KLs still couldn't get the job done.

Also, I bet a lot of those dominant matchups you're thinking of were the ones masqueraded by low-ranking matchup police officers like Death lol.

 

[Soul Bound X]

I don't mean to sound like a condescending prick, but have you ever considered that you're not good enough of a Cage player? If anyone has a reason to preach about this matchup, it's Dizzy, the guy has lost four-figure sums on the matchup in tournament and not even he would say it's systematically unwinnable.

At the end of the day, this is the difference between a heavy disadvantage matchup (starting at 7:14), and an unwinnable one (I'd like to point out that I'm not posting this because Dizzy eventually won, but to demonstrate it's still possible to make reads against said disadvantages):

This is an unwinnable matchup where you have zero options whatsoever that remedy the fundamental problem:

Comprende? I'm done here.



Not 100% true. Shang and Noob have neither those of things, at least not with notoriety and do well. Forcing yourself to get in against Kenshi is an ill-fated premise (unless you literally have no choice like Cage) and probably explains why a lot of pocket KLs still couldn't get the job done.

Also, I bet a lot of those dominant matchups you're thinking of were the ones masqueraded by low-ranking matchup police officers like Death lol.

Lol. King's kenshi obviously isn't that good man. Theres no way that would of happened against someone like pig. We're talking about the highest level of play right now right? Well King's kenshi isn't at the highest level. So that video means nothing. King makes it look winnable for cage. And no, I judge how good I am by the people I can compete with. I haven't played anyone I couldn't take games off of. Cage is such an easy character to play as. So is every character in this game actually but especially cage. I know what I'm talking about. But my point can be proven. Get pig or any kenshi on his level and dizzy or any cage on his level and get em to play a first to 10 or first to 20 or first to 100 or however many matches you think you need the kenshi player to win before your convinced that its that bad. And just watch the kenshi player completely dominate the cage player until your convinced. The longer the set the worst the match up looks for cage because of the enourmous winning streak kenshi will go on. Total domination. Cage should never be winning this one. Agree to disagree I guess. It's whatever.