MK9 & NEC Discussion: Ft. R.E.O., AtK, & Clark

[Clark L.]

Finished this. Enjoyable listen. Some extreme downplaying and odd statements aside.

thank you

 

[coolwhip]

I'll say this about Kung Lao though. I don't think anyone (at least not anyone reasonable) says he was overnerfed. Kung Lao is one of the most well balanced top tier characters in the game. He's fine the way he is. However, it can't be denied that he loses to Kabal, Cyrax, Sonya, (that's 3 out of 5 members of the top 5. Which is funny since Smoke players go crazy about Smoke losing to 3 of the top 5), Kitana (top 10) and Cage. That's five losing match-ups. Now, I don't mind someone saying Kung Lao should be 5th (though I personally have him at the 6th spot, behind Freddy) because he's super well rounded, doesn't lose any match-up worse than 4-6, has tools to deal even with his most difficult match-ups, and dominate a lot of the cast. But this idea that he's super downplayed is a thing of the past.

 

[RM AtK!]

I'll say this about Kung Lao though. I don't think anyone (at least not anyone reasonable) says he was overnerfed. Kung Lao is one of the most well balanced top tier characters in the game. He's fine the way he is. However, it can't be denied that he loses to Kabal, Cyrax, Sonya, (that's 3 out of 5 members of the top 5. Which is funny since Smoke players go crazy about Smoke losing to 3 of the top 5), Kitana (top 10) and Cage. That's five losing match-ups. Now, I don't mind someone saying Kung Lao should be 5th (though I personally have him at the 6th spot, behind Freddy) because he's super well rounded, doesn't lose any match-up worse than 4-6, has tools to deal even with his most difficult match-ups, and dominate a lot of the cast. But this idea that he's super downplayed is a thing of the past.

i dont think he loses to kitana its 5-5 m8 .. and kunglao's armor glitch and being able to spin u full combo for trying to follow up while + frame adv is def balanced i agree lol

oh sorry i thought u said smoke loses to kitana i retract that statement carry on m8

 

[legion666]

Also people are usually not playing safe ,trying to attack Shang when he morphs, because they know he has 5 seconds and he wants to use them, so Shang himself has to play safe here.
And his mid ( F4) isn't 9 frames!! It is 10 and that makes a huge difference in match ups like Jax, Kung Lao, Sonya, Sector etc ' cause they can interrupt your pressure not only with pokes or armour but with combo starters, and the risk/reward isn't in your favour anymore.

 

[Jimmypotato]

Ummm, it's called sarcasm. "Smoke has nothing great" was something that was said on the podcast and I'm blowing it up. Jeez.

lol aaaaaaaah, I'm old, sarcasm on the internet is lost on me.

Glad to know you are not insane.

 

[VenomX-90]

Just be thankful for the infinites, if there wasn't any the world would be thrown into chaos. Which I would like to see.

 

[coolwhip]

i dont think he loses to kitana its 5-5 m8 .. and kunglao's armor glitch and being able to spin u full combo for trying to follow up while + frame adv is def balanced i agree lol

Fair enough. Smoke's 100% glitch combos are "nothing great," I agree lol

 

[RM AtK!]

Fair enough. Smoke's 100% glitch combos are "nothing great," I agree lol

I never said smoke is balanced n his possibility of dmg is great ill agree on that.. Its situational but is great. I really could careless what you have to say on things anymore. I respect yours and everyone's opinions but you in particular I'm not really respecting how you go about things n twist what's being said. Tldr i don't care for you're gga bias elitist mentallity n the way you try to put others down when u have zero credibility in anything but he said she said

 

[JustPressingButtons]

I never said smoke is balanced n his possibility of dmg is great ill agree on that.. Its situational but is great. I really could careless what you have to say on things anymore. I respect yours and everyone's opinions but you in particular I'm not really respecting how you go about things n twist what's being said. Tldr i don't care for you're gga bias elitist mentallity n the way you try to put others down when u have zero credibility in anything but he said she said

Do you listen to what your saying then?

 

[16 Bit]

I agree with Coolwhip. Kitana beats Kung Lao. She also loses to Smoke.

 

[Dizzy]

d3 spin is better than d1, if you're talking about AA. d3 hitbox will make any jump attack whiff on crossup, and the opponent cannot block after whiffing a deep jump kick or punch. d3 is also better as a footsies tool/poking out of pressure because his d3 is so low that it can go under some normals, and it can't be punished on block.

You can stand block after whiffing a jump attack. However, if you hold down and block after whiffing a jump attack your character will be vulernable, and never actually block.

This is known as the "soonk bug" as after 2 years of playing the game he never once learned his lesson and complained about it every set.

If you are hitting someone grounded with spin, then they are either hitting buttons and not blocking, or falling victim to the soonk bug.

 

[coolwhip]

I never said smoke is balanced n his possibility of dmg is great ill agree on that.. Its situational but is great. I really could careless what you have to say on things anymore. I respect yours and everyone's opinions but you in particular I'm not really respecting how you go about things n twist what's being said. Tldr i don't care for you're gga bias elitist mentallity n the way you try to put others down when u have zero credibility in anything but he said she said

Dude, nothing I said was taken out of context. You literally said "Smoke doesn't have anything great." What context could possibly exist to justify that claim? Didn't we just go through this?

Also, what "situational" damage output does Smoke have when he can get his reset from pretty much most situations? I mean, some are harder than others, sure, but they exist.

I agree I don't have any credibility as a player. But what does that tell you when even I am able to tell how outrageous some of these claims are?

 

[coolwhip]

"Smoke can do good all around. He has decent everything. But he has nothing that's great. Like...absolutely nothing that's great."

"His 100% combo is a gamble. He needs the meter to use breaker."

This is literally, word for word, transcribed.

I mean seriously, what about these statements is justified with context? Yeah, I'm a jobber from Lebanon who's never went to tournament, since I'm being blown up for that, but how do the above statements make any sense? Yeah, Smoke totally needs that meter to break when he's killing you.

It continues:

"What's this about his fucking vortex? He has no vortex" (I agree with that part, though I'm quite sure nobody ever said it was a vortex, and the super proven CcTrust meant 50/50. And personally, I never claimed Smoke has a true 50/50. I even linked you the thread where I discussed this, CcTrust). "Like, if you can't block a 15 frame overhead dude...Like...I don't know."

So yeah sorry, I'm only bringing up again because I somehow got blown up for pointing out that the above is kind of outrageous. I mean we can debate whether Smoke's overhead is reactable since some are claiming they can react, but how does the statement above not imply that people should be blocking it all the time? Or is that also taken out of context?

Yeah I might have been a dick with what I said in my status update, but I 100% stand with the idea that the quoted parts above are ridiculous. It would be one thing if you just stated Smoke's overhead is reactable, though many would dispute that, but your quote clearly implied it should be easy, and a 15 frame overhead is no big deal. Yeah, I mean, Batgirl's overhead gets fuzzied all the time (that's also sarcasm, if JimmyPotato fails to detect it).

 

[Clark L.]

This was very enjoyable, I hope it's not the last one.


@RM GamerBlake

Loved this, we need more mk9 podcasts (even though this was not a podcast lol). Looking forward to watching nec. Wish I could make it out this year but unfortunately it looks like I won't be able to :-(

Love hearing people talking and caring about mk9 again though!

Im with AtK, I'll still play mk9 even after mkx is released. New games dont have to replace old games, they can co-exist

I think he is a master of damage though, and footsies. I mean, those are two extremely important aspects.

Anyway, I've enjoyed this.

Sorry I was late on this
Unfortunately this was a one-off

 

[Soul Bound X]

Okay, I finished watching the rest of this, here's what I think of the discussed topics, for what it's worth:

Matchup bills 1:

I do think Kitana has more to work with against Kenshi than some of Kenshi's other 8-2s, and therefore it's a 7-3, buuuuut:

I have to disagree with Kenshi/Cage not being 8-2, in the hands of a seasoned Kenshi player in that matchup specifically, there is honestly nothing Cage is better at. Even up close, Kenshi has more freedom since the Cage player is too paranoid about when Kenshi will cash in with armor/Charge.

I also can't see Cage going 5-5 with Freddy, regardless of stage size. If you learn how to buffer D1~NMS properly within pressure (admittedly it's probably awkward to do online), there's not much Cage can do about it, if he attempts to counterpoke with F3, it'll whiff and give you leeway to bus driver uppercut him into 40% with NMS1 lol.

The top 5/10 discussion:

I think most would agree the top 6 goes like this in NPO:
Kabal, Cyrax, Kenshi, Kung Lao, Sonya, Freddy.

That leaves 4 slots, and even then, there's about 10 different characters vying for them:

Cage, Reptile, Liu Kang, Kitana, Smoke, Shang, Skarlet, Jax, Sektor, Raiden.

Now, you can make a stronger case for some more than others, but honestly, I don't think any of them are a lock. The "there's no way a character that has X, Y and Z is not top 10" argument doesn't really hold much weight in a game as wholly messed up as MK9 lol.

Matchup bills 2:

Shang vs Smoke and Cyrax - Being able to soul steal makes sense on paper as far as neutering the matchup goes, but due to the nature of how they dish out their damage, it doesn't really give enough time to do a 160% BNB or whatever.

Also, soul steal exploits are not impractical in a real match. It all depends on how much advantage the last move you used before the morphback grants.

Smoke vs Freddy being 8-2 - Okay, hands up, who actually thinks this besides Croatian-Americans with normalphobia?

That's pretty much all I have to say. Good shit to Reo, Wiz and Clark, NEC can't some soon enough.

I agree about Kenshi. Idc what numbers you put on that mu, there is no reason cage should ever win. Just none. Unless the kenshi player is drunk, there is just no reason for kenshi to lose to cage ever.

 

[Clark L.]

I agree about Kenshi. Idc what numbers you put on that mu, there is no reason cage should ever win. Just none. Unless the kenshi player is drunk, there is just no reason for kenshi to lose to cage ever.

@R.E.O.

Mike got a round

 

[Soul Bound X]

@R.E.O.

Mike got a round

ehh. Doesn't really convince me of anything. Mikes a good player. But my opinion is exactly the same after watching that. I didn't see anything new. I mained both of those characters and played the mu as both so many times. REO lost one match but he didn't have to. Every now and then there is a fluke win for cage in a kenshi cage set. But once the kenshi player gets into his groove theres no winning for cage anymore.

 

[Soul Bound X]

I think some players on this site judge that mu based on tournament footage of really short sets like that one. But the dominance of kenshi in that mu really starts to show in much longer sets. What was that? like 3-1 or 2-1 Reo? You say mike got a round like I should be impressed. I mean he is an impressive cage player. But if they would of played 20 matches i bet it would of been 19-1 reo and that 1 round would of looked a lot less impressive. It really is just a bad mu. If cage ever wins I always say its the kenshi player's fault. Because I've played that mu enough to know that it is. If a cage player won a first to ten against someone like pigs kenshi, or even won 3 games out of the ten, then I'd change my mind. But thats not going to happen cus that mu suuucckkss for cage

 

[Clark L.]

I think some players on this site judge that mu based on tournament footage of really short sets like that one. But the dominance of kenshi in that mu really starts to show in much longer sets. What was that? like 3-1 or 2-1 Reo? You say mike got a round like I should be impressed. I mean he is an impressive cage player. But if they would of played 20 matches i bet it would of been 19-1 reo and that 1 round would of looked a lot less impressive. It really is just a bad mu. If cage ever wins I always say its the kenshi player's fault. Because I've player that mu enough to know that it is. If a cage player won a first to ten against someone like pigs kenshi, or even won 3 games out of the ten, then I'd change my mind. But thats not going to happen cus that mu suuucckkss for cage

Well I'm happy were actually discussing the bulk of the matter now (rather than 1 move). Now for sure this is a terrible mu for cage. But what reo is trying to argue is if kenshi v subzero is 8-2, how is kenshi v cage 8-2. Because cage is a far better character than sub is

 

[coolwhip]

Well I'm happy were actually discussing the bulk of the matter now (rather than 1 move). Now for sure this is a terrible mu for cage. But what reo is trying to argue is if kenshi v subzero is 8-2, how is kenshi v cage 8-2. Because cage is a far better character than sub is

That's a valid argument. But what if Kenshi-Sub was worse than 8-2? Just throwing it out there. I don't really know the number, but if say, Pig and Tom were to make a case that it's a 9-1, I wouldn't find it too outrageous.

 

[16 Bit]

.But what reo is trying to argue is if kenshi v subzero is 8-2, how is kenshi v cage 8-2. Because cage is a far better character than sub is

This makes no sense.

Match ups are about two particular characters tools against each other. A character could be better overall but their tool set gets shut down badly in a match up where a lesser character's might not.

Kitana is a better character than Sub-Zero. However Sub-Zero does better against Johnny Cage than she does. What she does is on average better against the cast but what Sub-Zero does happens to be better against Cage than her game.

 

[GuamoKun]

It might be just wishful thinking but I think that what @R.E.O. is doing with these controversial statements is to cause some informed debate on things by making people go "-wait thats not quite right".

It's not like he's a dumb person I think...but anyways @Insuperable Kitana's d4 is really really good. It's slow sure but its meaty AF and the longest d4 besides the Mileena/Sonya variety

 

[STRYKIE]

I agree about Kenshi. Idc what numbers you put on that mu, there is no reason cage should ever win. Just none. Unless the kenshi player is drunk, there is just no reason for kenshi to lose to cage ever.

I wouldn't go as far as to say he should never win. I stand by the assessment that there's no situations where Cage has the advantage in that matchup, but it's still possible to outplay your opponent in a 2-8.

@R.E.O.

Mike got a round

No disrespect, but REO doesn't exactly fit the description of a 'seasoned' Kenshi player.

That's a valid argument. But what if Kenshi-Sub was worse than 8-2? Just throwing it out there. I don't really know the number, but if say, Pig and Tom were to make a case that it's a 9-1, I wouldn't find it too outrageous.

For the record, I currently do think Kenshi/Sub is a 9-1. But I understand the essence of the argument, a line has to be drawn before we start talking about -2-12s lol.

 

[Soul Bound X]

I wouldn't go as far as to say he should never win. I stand by the assessment that there's no situations where Cage has the advantage in that matchup, but it's still possible to outplay your opponent in a 2-8.


No disrespect, but REO doesn't exactly fit the description of a 'seasoned' Kenshi player.


For the record, I currently do think Kenshi/Sub is a 9-1. But I understand the essence of the argument, a line has to be drawn before we start talking about -2-12s lol.

No. The first match might be 8-2 . The first match for whatever reason is usually winnable. But after the kenshi player adapts, the cage player's mind plateus because of the lack of neccessary tools to win and its loss after loss from that point forward. That's usually how that mu plays out. He's not winning after the kenshi player adapts, he's just not.

 

[Matix218]

Well I'm happy were actually discussing the bulk of the matter now (rather than 1 move). Now for sure this is a terrible mu for cage. But what reo is trying to argue is if kenshi v subzero is 8-2, how is kenshi v cage 8-2. Because cage is a far better character than sub is

I Dont think "better character" overall determines that a specific matchup is either better or worse for a character. It should be based individually on the specific character and his tools vs the opposing characters tools. For example, some argue that sub beats cage 6-4 and that cage beats smoke 6-4 but clearly the overall "better character" between smoke and sub zero would be smoke (which no one in their right mind would argue against). Now I'm not saying that sub vs kenshi is any better or worse than cage vs kenshi but it shouldn't have anything to do with the "better character" to determine this, it should be done on a matchup by matchup basis