Question - Summoner Is this character overly downplayed?

[RM NoBrows]

It's ok to argue one way or the other on this, but to do so we need to stop spreading misinformation. 15 frames is NOT even remotely react able. A 1-2 frame link is NOT easy to block and go into the training mode and figure out, I'm guessing you guys are talking about QCs regular vortex but don't have the knowledge here. Or you are just downplaying. but I'll give the benefit of the doubt here.

Record yourself doing this http://testyourmight.com/threads/vs-quan-chi-bat-vortex-training.54840/. Practice a little till you can get a TINY link with QC, then record yourself blocking it 5/5 times without resetting. Then YOU can say that this is easy to block, because as it stands everyone else is dealing with reality and you guys are just saying "but the science is wrong because I said so!". Then we can address the fact that even being able to learn a tiny block link means fuck all when your opponent can literally change the timing to suit his needs.




I'm all for a good debate with good arguments on both sides. But this sort of stuff, like "you can react to 15 frame start ups!" and "2 frame block links that have randomized timing are easy!" is just doing exactly what this thread is talking about... DOWNPLAYING. There is no other word for it, because the lies are blatant lol.

Also, if you dedicate yourself to blocking low than high, you will get blown up by b3 everytime

Okay damn I said that you can react to it I never said that I could block his 50/50s 10 out of ten times. People are overreacting to this. It isn't easy to react to I should've never said that it's very reactable that was foolish of me. But just because you can't react to something 10/10 times doesnt deem it not reactable at all. I guarantee there's not many people that can react to the characters who have 50 50s 10 out of 10 times. Let's take sib zero for instance. Now idk his frame data of his low and OH starter, but that overhead is definitely reactable. Does that mean I'll block his 50 50s 10 out of 10 times? No. Is anyone who is putting there input in this thread talking about this specific topic accounting for human error? So you're telling me that there's absolutely no one who can react to a 15 frame move? No one at all? Cuz guess what it only takes one person to be able to react to it to validate it reactable. And back to the topic of THIS variation being broken or not. Wonder Chef won the VERY FIRST tournament with Summoner quan, and that's the only one that anyone has won with summoner quan. The meta has evolved alot since then. Outside of that, Michaelangelo has placed top 8 at a handful of majors. As of late, more people have been placing higher with SORCERER quan. Ketchup made top 8 with SORCERER quan at evo. To my knowledge, since then no one has placed top 8 at a major since then with summoner quan. All of quam chis variation s are good. But summoner quan is NOT broken. He's very good yes, but like I said before there's other stuff in this game people have that is better than what summoner quan can do.

 

[Rude]

Okay damn I said that you can react to it I never said that I could block his 50/50s 10 out of ten times. People are overreacting to this. It isn't easy to react to I should've never said that it's very reactable that was foolish of me. But just because you can't react to something 10/10 times doesnt deem it not reactable at all. I guarantee there's not many people that can react to the characters who have 50 50s 10 out of 10 times. Let's take sib zero for instance. Now idk his frame data of his low and OH starter, but that overhead is definitely reactable. Does that mean I'll block his 50 50s 10 out of 10 times? No. Is anyone who is putting there input in this thread talking about this specific topic accounting for human error? So you're telling me that there's absolutely no one who can react to a 15 frame move? No one at all? Cuz guess what it only takes one person to be able to react to it to validate it reactable. And back to the topic of THIS variation being broken or not. Wonder Chef won the VERY FIRST tournament with Summoner quan, and that's the only one that anyone has won with summoner quan. The meta has evolved alot since then. Outside of that, Michaelangelo has placed top 8 at a handful of majors. As of late, more people have been placing higher with SORCERER quan. Ketchup made top 8 with SORCERER quan at evo. To my knowledge, since then no one has placed top 8 at a major since then with summoner quan. All of quam chis variation s are good. But summoner quan is NOT broken. He's very good yes, but like I said before there's other stuff in this game people have that is better than what summoner quan can do.

If it is reactable, then there is no reason why you can't block it 10/10 times. You are, after all, "reacting" to the visual of the move.

You're confusing guessing correctly/making a read with a pure reaction.

For a 50/50 to exist, it has to be unseeable. That's why you have to guess.

If you can see it, it's not a 50/50.

 

[Deleted member 9158]

Yes she can?

Everyone can abuse his lack of a wake up.

I love when people think they can do this against warlock and they eat a portal stab

 

[Rude]

I love when people think they can do this against warlock and they eat a portal stab

I'm playing Warlock more and more these days.

I think it's a good variation. There are a couple things I'd like to see changed, but most of it is luxury buffs.

To get back on topic, if they adjusted the link so that a 1-frame gap is possible, Quan would be fine.

But nerfing the rune or making low bat hit mid is crazy talk.

 

[RM NoBrows]

If it is reactable, then there is no reason why you can't block it 10/10 times. You are, after all, "reacting" to the visual of the move.

You're confusing guessing correctly/making a read with a pure reaction.

For a 50/50 to exist, it has to be unseeable. That's why you have to guess.

If you can see it, it's not a 50/50.

So no one is accounting for human error, okay. Because if something is reactable than literally everyone who plays this game will block every single move in this game that is reactable every single time by your logic, correct? Yes if something is reactable, you should be able to block it just about every time. That doesn't mean that you will block it every single time. NO ONE has perfect defense in this fighting game. How about the characters who don't have 50 50s? Are you gonna block every single thing they do? Because if there's no 50 50 than its just a matter of knowing the blocking pattern of there strings. But human error is apparently not a thing so you should be able to block everything characters who don't have 50 50s do if you just sit there and block.

 

[Rude]

So no one is accounting for human error, okay. Because if something is reactable than literally everyone who plays this game will block every single move in this game that is reactable every single time by your logic, correct? Yes if something is reactable, you should be able to block it just about every time. That doesn't mean that you will block it every single time. NO ONE has perfect defense in this fighting game. How about the characters who don't have 50 50s? Are you gonna block every single thing they do? Because if there's no 50 50 than its just a matter of knowing the blocking pattern of there strings. But human error is apparently not a thing so you should be able to block everything characters who don't have 50 50s do if you just sit there and block.

No. The difference is that characters who don't have a 50/50 use conditioning to open you up.

They too, have unseeable strings that aren't overheads and lows.

So they use their fast strings, combined with frame traps and staggers, to open you up.

Human error doesn't factor into this. The very definition of error is that you made a mistake.

Not blocking because of a mistake is not consistent data to determine something is reactable.

By your definition, no one would ever have been hit by Smoke's overhead.

If it is reactable, then if you practice blocking it you should be able to block it.

Until you show me a match where you, personally block the OH 10/10 times, this on reaction talk is a bill.

 

[I GOT HANDS]

Okay damn I said that you can react to it I never said that I could block his 50/50s 10 out of ten times. People are overreacting to this. It isn't easy to react to I should've never said that it's very reactable that was foolish of me. But just because you can't react to something 10/10 times doesnt deem it not reactable at all. I guarantee there's not many people that can react to the characters who have 50 50s 10 out of 10 times. Let's take sib zero for instance. Now idk his frame data of his low and OH starter, but that overhead is definitely reactable. Does that mean I'll block his 50 50s 10 out of 10 times? No. Is anyone who is putting there input in this thread talking about this specific topic accounting for human error? So you're telling me that there's absolutely no one who can react to a 15 frame move? No one at all? Cuz guess what it only takes one person to be able to react to it to validate it reactable. And back to the topic of THIS variation being broken or not. Wonder Chef won the VERY FIRST tournament with Summoner quan, and that's the only one that anyone has won with summoner quan. The meta has evolved alot since then. Outside of that, Michaelangelo has placed top 8 at a handful of majors. As of late, more people have been placing higher with SORCERER quan. Ketchup made top 8 with SORCERER quan at evo. To my knowledge, since then no one has placed top 8 at a major since then with summoner quan. All of quam chis variation s are good. But summoner quan is NOT broken. He's very good yes, but like I said before there's other stuff in this game people have that is better than what summoner quan can do.

So basically, what you are saying is that although you can't react consistently to 15 frame start ups, and you don't know of anybody who can, and absolutely all the science behind it says that you can't, all that doesn't matter because there COULD be someone out there who can do it, thus 15 frames is now reactable?

Excellent logic friend. You have my book for TYM's top idiocy of the week.



1-2 frame links are easy to get down, and the timing ISN'T random because you can react to a 15 frame start up just fine.




And you aren't downplaying. Got it. Very convincing.

 

[Rude]

If it's a 50/50, there is no reacting.

It is a guess.

That's what having a 50/50 means.

You have to guess.

 

[I GOT HANDS]

I'm playing Warlock more and more these days.

I think it's a good variation. There are a couple things I'd like to see changed, but most of it is luxury buffs.

To get back on topic, if they adjusted the link so that a 1-frame gap is possible, Quan would be fine.

But nerfing the rune or making low bat hit mid is crazy talk.

I agree. Nerfing his other tools is such a silly suggestion that I think people just want Quan to suck. He needs insane offense, anyone who wants this taken away from him doesn't understand the character.

However, he doesn't need tiny ass blonk links added to his double 50/50 vortex which has impossible to learn timings because its flexible.

All this talk of nerfing his tools is ridiculous. He doesn't need to have the rest of his game affected in anyway.

 

[RM NoBrows]

So basically, what you are saying is that although you can't react consistently to 15 frame start ups, and you don't know of anybody who can, and absolutely all the science behind it says that you can't, all that doesn't matter because there COULD be someone out there who can do it, thus 15 frames is now reactable?

Excellent logic friend. You have my book for TYM's top idiocy of the week.



1-2 frame links are easy to get down, and the timing ISN'T random because you can react to a 15 frame start up just fine.




And you aren't downplaying. Got it. Very convincing.

So if something is deemed impossible, and someone does what was said to be impossible, its still impossible because not everyone can do what was said to be impossible? And I'm the idiot. I'm done with this thread. This thread should've been closed long before I commented on this. This is what TYM has become and this is why I will be deleting my account in the near future cuz this website is garbage now.

 

[Rude]

So if something is deemed impossible, and someone does what was said to be impossible, its still impossible because not everyone can do what was said to be impossible? And I'm the idiot. I'm done with this thread. This thread should've been closed long before I commented on this. This is what TYM has become and this is why I will be deleting my account in the near future cuz this website is garbage now.

What you're failing to understand is the details.

No one is calling Quan's overhead unblockable.

We're saying is that when it is blocked in the context of a vortex is done on a read or a guess.

A guess and a read is NOT a reaction.

You're confusing the terminology and instead of admitting it, you're blaming everyone else for your lack of comprehension.

If it's blocked in a vortex, it's done on a correct guess

It's that simple

 

[I GOT HANDS]

So if something is deemed impossible, and someone does what was said to be impossible, its still impossible because not everyone can do what was said to be impossible? And I'm the idiot. I'm done with this thread. This thread should've been closed long before I commented on this. This is what TYM has become and this is why I will be deleting my account in the near future cuz this website is garbage now.

Nobody said blocking a 15 frame overhead doesn't happen, we said reacting to it does. Show me someone reacting to it and you will have a point. But so far your argument has no support logic or evidence whatsoever, just you saying it is possible and acting like that disproves everything we know about fighting games. Go ahead and delete your account.

 

[legion666]

Regardless, whether or not Quan DOES need fixing aside for a second, even assuming he is perfectly fine - this character is undebatably downplayed. The shit people will come up with when QC is in question is hilarious. This thread has some good examples of it, here is another, probably the WORST post I've EVER seen on TYM, and I've seen some shit



And yeah, that isn't sarcasm or satire.

Man, Quan really does bother you a lot if you just can't STFU about it. Learn the MU. I don't know what else to say because like 3 people I am playing offline block his "unblockables" if they can see which set up is coming. Maybe that is because me and two other people in our scene are playing Quan as a secondary and they have learnt the fucking MU instead of shit posting in every single "Nerf Quan Chi" thread on this site.

 

[I GOT HANDS]

Man, Quan really does bother you a lot if you just can't STFU about it. Learn the MU. I don't know what else to say because like 3 people I am playing offline block his "unblockables" if they can see which set up is coming. Maybe that is because me and two other people in our scene are playing Quan as a secondary and they have learnt the fucking MU instead of shit posting in every single "Nerf Quan Chi" thread on this site.

Dude, you said use a block macro.

 

[legion666]

Dude, you said use a block macro.

Well, I have no idea about how macros work, so I was just saying shit. I thought you can creat a macro for any sequance of actions, even defensive ones)))
But it has nothing to do with my knowledge of the Quan MU.

 

[The_Tile]

Raiden with option selects that make his - overhead safe, four armored moves, extremely easy corner carry, big corner damage and armor breaking NOT broken?

Okay. Sure.

When people get option selects down this game is gonna change. A lot. Not sure if I like that pretty much all 50/50s will end up safe.

 

[lil freshie11]

Man, Quan really does bother you a lot if you just can't STFU about it. Learn the MU. I don't know what else to say because like 3 people I am playing offline block his "unblockables" if they can see which set up is coming. Maybe that is because me and two other people in our scene are playing Quan as a secondary and they have learnt the fucking MU instead of shit posting in every single "Nerf Quan Chi" thread on this site.

learning the matchup doesn't mean a person can consistently block a 1 frame link, because its not possible to consistently pull off.

 

[JDM]

15 frames is not reactable in the slightest. The average human can muster a dedicated reaction of about 18-20 frames.

Also, it's easy to say block low then high if your timing is systematic. Throw off the timing of either in any way, and the idea of fuzzy guarding gets murky as shit.

15 frames is reactable. The cusp of being reactable is like 13-15 frames. It's hard yes but it's definitely doable.

 

[legion666]

learning the matchup doesn't mean a person can consistently block a 1 frame link, because its not possible to consistently pull off.

I agree but it isn't always a 1 frame link, and I had my casuals partner block Quan's set ups pretty consistently, not only from my secondary Quan, but from other players in our scene who main him. I even recorded some set ups to be as close as possible to a 1 frame link in the training mode and he blocks them there 10/10. Of course in a real match it is way way harder to do. But I don't see how it is worse than what Hunter Predator does with traps "unblockables" into even more damage than Quan does.
Again I fully agree that Summoner Quan has the best Vortex and the best zoning in the game. But he has by far the worst defense. When you watch excellent players like @WhoIsYams play against Tanyas or @Mr Aquaman 's Kotal you can see how it is either he vortexes them to death, or they destroy him in the corner (which happens more often). And more experienced tourney players like Yams, @STB Shujinkydink , @michaelangelo aren't going for these pseudo unblockables anymore, instead they are using their bat for safety and new set ups. There is a reason for that.

 

[STB Shujinkydink]

I agree but it isn't always a 1 frame link, and I had my casuals partner block Quan's set ups pretty consistently, not only from my secondary Quan, but from other players in our scene who main him. I even recorded some set ups to be as close as possible to a 1 frame link in the training mode and he blocks them there 10/10. Of course in a real match it is way way harder to do. But I don't see how it is worse than what Hunter Predator does with traps "unblockables" into even more damage than Quan does.
Again I fully agree that Summoner Quan has the best Vortex and the best zoning in the game. But he has by far the worst defense. When you watch excellent players like @WhoIsYams play against Tanyas or @Mr Aquaman 's Kotal you can see how it is either he vortexes them to death, or they destroy him in the corner (which happens more often). And more experienced tourney players like Yams, @STB Shujinkydink , @michaelangelo aren't going for these pseudo unblockables anymore, instead they are using their bat for safety and new set ups. There is a reason for that.

That's the big thing here. People complain about these pseudo unblockables but from a strategic standpoint it makes no sense. Why would I use something that does 18% and gives my opponent 5 chances to escape before it kills them, over using a bigger combo into setup that gives them one chance to escape and do 60%? It's a bad strategy, even though it's tough to escape that's still 5 times the quan player has to execute it correctly as well. It's just not worth it. Predator I believe favours more cause he hits it once he gets big damage. If I wanna loop it it's 18% max everytime. Plus you can break. If you're only losing to this you need to level up

 

[llabslb]

I wanna see the quan players blocking this consistently. I wanna see you guys to be able to block both mix ups.

 

[llabslb]

If it's a 50/50, there is no reacting.

It is a guess.

That's what having a 50/50 means.

You have to guess.

Even if you guess correctly you'd still probably get hit simply because of the time between the OH and low

 

[I GOT HANDS]

Well, I have no idea about how macros work, so I was just saying shit. I thought you can creat a macro for any sequance of actions, even defensive ones)))
But it has nothing to do with my knowledge of the Quan MU.

Well I'll explain it you and stop giving you a hard time about it

You can bind a sequence of of buttons to a macro, which can be activated with a keystroke, mouse button, or even gamepad or stick if you completely remap your hardware. You could indeed run a defensive block string through a macro as you suggested, so let's just run through the reasons this doesn't work as a viable solution to blocking Quan Chi's vortex.

• The obvious one - PC only. So 1/3 of the customer base has this option, and that's being generous as I believe PC is the least played platform by a LARGE margin, I imagine it's just a fraction of all MKX players who could do this if they wanted to.
• Regardless, no tournaments are held on the PC version, so if this did work, it would only be an option for casual play even if it didn't force everyone to buy a gaming PC capable of playing MKX just to build their macro and practice using it correctly.
• Then, even if hypothetically tournaments did play on PC and it WAS a possibility, there is literally not a competitive eSport I know of that hasn't banned macro's in all forms and anything even remotely similar as soon as they came up as a possibility. I fail to see why MKX would be an exception, TO's would be crazy to rule in favor of macro's if they were an option, but I guess this is just me projecting. I'd be surprised to see it go the other way though.
• So even hypothetically assuming that tournaments DID play on PC, and DID allow macro's - you would have to fuck around before each match and set up your macro, and not just by inputting the buttons, you would have to have the millisecond gaps perfected here and also inputted into your macro, you'd have to have a text summary of your macro with you to copy it over. Impractical in so many ways.
• Then, on top of that, you would STILL be restricted to using keyboard only, unless your TO let each player who wanted to do this, fuck around in the registrys of their tournament pc AS WELL, so that they could remap the entire gamepad functions completely.
• Sound impractical? Maybe so, but I'll give all this to you for the sake of this argument. Because it doesn't make a difference, because assuming you COULD do all this - YOU WOULD STILL HAVE TO LAND THE ORIGINAL MACRO KEYSTROKE WITH 1-2 FRAMES OF ACCURACY FOR THE MACRO TO BLOCK THE 1-2 FRAME BLOCK LINK MID COMBO ON TIME. So the macro would give you literally no advantage over just trying to nail a 2 frame block link by hand, in fact it would likely make it even less consistent for multiple reasons
• Then, on top of all this - THE WHOLE POINT IS THAT IT DOESN'T EVEN MATTER. Even if you could do all this, and you could nail 1-2 frame block links with MACRO accuracy - the Quan Chi player can and likely will even unintentionally, adjust the timing of the combo, the whole point here is that the timing is flexible ON TOP of being a 1-2 frame link.
• Then, cutting all that technical shit out, and bringing it back down to earth for a second - you've set up a macro and your opponent knows you have, once you hit it there is no cancelling it. If I was the Quan Chi player, I would just bait out the freaking macro, stop the combo and take advantage of it as my meterless reset, completely defeating the "purpose" of this macro to begin with.

And these reasons are just half of why I rank that post as possibly the silliest thing I've seen on this site. I won't bring it up again, but please just... accept that block macro's are not a valid answer to QC's unblockable.

 

[legion666]

Well I'll explain it you and stop giving you a hard time about it

You can bind a sequence of of buttons to a macro, which can be activated with a keystroke, mouse button, or even gamepad or stick if you completely remap your hardware. You could indeed run a defensive block string through a macro as you suggested, so let's just run through the reasons this doesn't work as a viable solution to blocking Quan Chi's vortex.

• The obvious one - PC only. So 1/3 of the customer base has this option, and that's being generous as I believe PC is the least played platform by a LARGE margin, I imagine it's just a fraction of all MKX players who could do this if they wanted to.
• Regardless, no tournaments are held on the PC version, so if this did work, it would only be an option for casual play even if it didn't force everyone to buy a gaming PC capable of playing MKX just to build their macro and practice using it correctly.
• Then, even if hypothetically tournaments did play on PC and it WAS a possibility, there is literally not a competitive eSport I know of that hasn't banned macro's in all forms and anything even remotely similar as soon as they came up as a possibility. I fail to see why MKX would be an exception, TO's would be crazy to rule in favor of macro's if they were an option, but I guess this is just me projecting. I'd be surprised to see it go the other way though.
• So even hypothetically assuming that tournaments DID play on PC, and DID allow macro's - you would have to fuck around before each match and set up your macro, and not just by inputting the buttons, you would have to have the millisecond gaps perfected here and also inputted into your macro, you'd have to have a text summary of your macro with you to copy it over. Impractical in so many ways.
• Then, on top of that, you would STILL be restricted to using keyboard only, unless your TO let each player who wanted to do this, fuck around in the registrys of their tournament pc AS WELL, so that they could remap the entire gamepad functions completely.
• Sound impractical? Maybe so, but I'll give all this to you for the sake of this argument. Because it doesn't make a difference, because assuming you COULD do all this - YOU WOULD STILL HAVE TO LAND THE ORIGINAL MACRO KEYSTROKE WITH 1-2 FRAMES OF ACCURACY FOR THE MACRO TO BLOCK THE 1-2 FRAME BLOCK LINK MID COMBO ON TIME. So the macro would give you literally no advantage over just trying to nail a 2 frame block link by hand, in fact it would likely make it even less consistent for multiple reasons
• Then, on top of all this - THE WHOLE POINT IS THAT IT DOESN'T EVEN MATTER. Even if you could do all this, and you could nail 1-2 frame block links with MACRO accuracy - the Quan Chi player can and likely will even unintentionally, adjust the timing of the combo, the whole point here is that the timing is flexible ON TOP of being a 1-2 frame link.
• Then, cutting all that technical shit out, and bringing it back down to earth for a second - you've set up a macro and your opponent knows you have, once you hit it there is no cancelling it. If I was the Quan Chi player, I would just bait out the freaking macro, stop the combo and take advantage of it as my meterless reset, completely defeating the "purpose" of this macro to begin with.

And these reasons are just half of why I rank that post as possibly the silliest thing I've seen on this site. I won't bring it up again, but please just... accept that block macro's are not a valid answer to QC's unblockable.

Then you have to forgive me, but I wasn't the one who suggested using PC macros in the first place. The post you quoted was a response to the other poster who said that Quan's pseudo-unblockable set up was ridiculous because on PC you can creat a macro for that. So that it is always a 1 frame block link. So I thought exactly the same things you are saying here, and was like how the hell is it related to mkx on the pro level if it is always played on consoles. So I replied with that block macro solution half jokingly, half being an asshole and trying to talk shit to a person who brings up shitty reasoning for the set up to be considered OP))))

 

[I GOT HANDS]

Then you have to forgive me, but I wasn't the one who suggested using PC macros in the first place. The post you quoted was a response to the other poster who said that Quan's pseudo-unblockable set up was ridiculous because on PC you can creat a macro for that. So that it is always a 1 frame block link. So I thought exactly the same things you are saying here, and was like how the hell is it related to mkx on the pro level if it is always played on consoles. So I replied with that block macro solution half jokingly, half being an asshole and trying to talk shit to a person who brings up shitty reasoning for the set up to be considered OP))))

Ok I didn't see that, I thought you were genuinely using that as a reason that QC's vortex is fine as is. Whether it is or not people can debate, but you can see how I would think that anyone saying something like this is just blatantly downplaying lol