Strategy - Commando I Think it's Time to Re-evaluate Commando

[Youphemism]

No people don't complain about throws doing high damage in Tekken. I honestly haven't heard of any complaints in Street Fighter or KOF for that matter either. Throw immunity doesn't seem to be at work here man, I even stated that if you delay your inputs for the wakeup ex command throw it "works." As in KL got thrown out of his b321 string. If the string was intentionally made to be throw immune, don't ya think it would consistently make the command throws whiff no matter when the command throw was executed? And how does it explain why EB and Kotal's command throws don't whiff?

I didn't say they'd complain about high damage, I thought they'd complain about the priority of grabs over pretty much every other move (at least that's what it sounds like, correct me if I'm wrong). Throw immunity is at work, the inconsistency is not in the programming but the frame data. Check the startup/active/recovery frames for every command grab you mentioned, I bet some have much less than others and that'll be why Errons and Kotals work different. That mixed with the few throw immune frames in Lao's B3 will be what's causing the apparent inconsistency. I'm pretty sure I said there are only some throw immune frames, if I didn't then...well yeah there are only some throw immune frames in moves. Batgirls B1 for example was only throw immune in the beginning startup frames so you had to do it later to be throw immune rather than earlier.

 

[ando1184]

I didn't say they'd complain about high damage, I thought they'd complain about the priority of grabs over pretty much every other move (at least that's what it sounds like, correct me if I'm wrong). Throw immunity is at work, the inconsistency is not in the programming but the frame data. Check the startup/active/recovery frames for every command grab you mentioned, I bet some have much less than others and that'll be why Errons and Kotals work different. That mixed with the few throw immune frames in Lao's B3 will be what's causing the apparent inconsistency. I'm pretty sure I said there are only some throw immune frames, if I didn't then...well yeah there are only some throw immune frames in moves. Batgirls B1 for example was only throw immune in the beginning startup frames so you had to do it later to be throw immune rather than earlier.

You said: "do people not complain about how powerful throws/grabs are?" To me, powerful was implying damage output. But you cleared that up already I guess. Regardless of this being throw immune or not, why does it have to be accepted? The majority of characters that this affects NEED their command throws to consistently "Not" whiff. Especially if they have a variation that is so dependent on them like; Commando Kano, Sun God Kotal Kahn, Relentless Jason, Unstoppable Jason.

 

[Under_The_Mayo]

Came back for more info to try to help my friend who's a commando player. Left after 2 pages of grab immunity discussion.

 

[ando1184]

Came back for more info to try to help my friend who's a commando player. Left after 2 pages of grab immunity discussion.

Sorry but I don't believe it should work like that for a character, whose entire game revolves around his command throws. What are your thoughts on grab immunity and the things that go into MKX, especially involving it's grappler characters?

 

[Youphemism]

Came back for more info to try to help my friend who's a commando player. Left after 2 pages of grab immunity discussion.

I thought Doug had answered your question, if you want to know anything specific feel free to ask and we'll all gladly answer! Ando and I are just going in depth on how Commandos grabs work because it's pretty important lol.

You said: "do people not complain about how powerful throws/grabs are?" To me, powerful was implying damage output. But you cleared that up already I guess. Regardless of this being throw immune or not, why does it have to be accepted? The majority of characters that this affects NEED their command throws to consistently "Not" whiff. Especially if they have a variation that is so dependent on them like; Commando Kano, Sun God Kotal Kahn, Relentless Jason, Unstoppable Jason.

Ah right I see why you thought that. I mean it's just accepted that there are throw immune moves and if a character does one of those moves when a grappler goes for a grab the throw immune move will win and that's just how it works in this game as the move is immune to throws/grabs. Command throws whiffing on moves that aren't supposed to be throw immune is a completely different situation however and that would need to be fixed. Grapplers may be more powerful in Tekken but that's just Tekken I guess. It'd be worse if everything a character did was throw immune or the majority of their armourless moveset was throw immune but there's really not that much that's throw immune (to my knowledge, there should really be a thread for that actually). The way you beat tick throws with Kano, KK, Jason, etc is the same as how you beat Grundy which is jumping out or armouring out or doing a throw immune move like B3. It's not like there are no top tier grapplers, I mean look at Erron Black, although Erron Black is a pisstake and I don't even know what to class him as lol.

 

[ando1184]

I thought Doug had answered your question, if you want to know anything specific feel free to ask and we'll all gladly answer! Ando and I are just going in depth on how Commandos grabs work because it's pretty important lol.

Ah right I see why you thought that. I mean it's just accepted that there are throw immune moves and if a character does one of those moves when a grappler goes for a grab the throw immune move will win and that's just how it works in this game as the move is immune to throws/grabs. Command throws whiffing on moves that aren't supposed to be throw immune is a completely different situation however and that would need to be fixed. Grapplers may be more powerful in Tekken but that's just Tekken I guess. It'd be worse if everything a character did was throw immune or the majority of their armourless moveset was throw immune but there's really not that much that's throw immune (to my knowledge, there should really be a thread for that actually). The way you beat tick throws with Kano, KK, Jason, etc is the same as how you beat Grundy which is jumping out or armouring out or doing a throw immune move like B3. It's not like there are no top tier grapplers, I mean look at Erron Black, although Erron Black is a pisstake and I don't even know what to class him as lol.

Youphie, Youphie, Youphe, can I call ya Youphe ? Tekken isn't the only game like this, and it's not just the grapple characters it was their throw mechanic in general. Throws would grab you out of everything if the frame allowed it, same thing with street fighter, soul calibur, and other fighting games. Yes to beat tick throws is by jumping, backdashing, or armoring but the thing Kano doesn't have is a true AA throw like the other characters, which would make the opponent respect his options. Choke works as an AA only at a certain distance off the ground, you can't choke someone as they fall from the peak of their jump like KK's df1, or Grundys AA throw. Grundy also got amazing frame advantage off of his AA throw, choke leaves you with poor oki options. To me this is just helping prove more of the point of how he's lacking as a grappler. For the record, EB being a better "grappler" than anyone else in this game is an example of poor programming.

 

[Youphemism]

Youphie, Youphie, Youphe, can I call ya Youphe ? Tekken isn't the only game like this, and it's not just the grapple characters it was their throw mechanic in general. Throws would grab you out of everything if the frame allowed it, same thing with street fighter, soul calibur, and other fighting games. Yes to beat tick throws is by jumping, backdashing, or armoring but the thing Kano doesn't have is a true AA throw like the other characters, which would make the opponent respect his options. Choke works as an AA only at a certain distance off the ground, you can't choke someone as they fall from the peak of their jump like KK's df1, or Grundys AA throw. Grundy also got amazing frame advantage off of his AA throw, choke leaves you with poor oki options. To me this is just helping prove more of the point of how he's lacking as a grappler. For the record, EB being a better "grappler" than anyone else in this game is an example of poor programming.

Youphie, Youphe, usually people call me Youph but call me whatever you want lol. As a grappler in this game I guess he lacks in terms of the number of ticks he has and I've always said he could do with better/more character-specific ticks than F33 ( because fuck that string -_____- ) but lacking as a grappler might not be true. Although he doesn't have an anti-air grab you have to remember his B1 is godlike, that's probably the reason why he doesn't have an anti-air grab: because he has a bunch of anti-air tools like B1, up ball, D2. Also he has a backwards and forwards command grab which is something pretty much every other grappler doesn't have. And Erron being a better grappler has nothing to do with programming, that's character design. SSSSSSSSSSSSTAHP with the idea that Kanos problems are bad programming lol, it'll be game design or hitbox problems if anything (I think).

 

[DFC]

I don't believe that NRS intended for Erron Black to be the best Grappler in the game, or that Kano, the touted grapper to be third at best

 

[ando1184]

Youphie, Youphe, usually people call me Youph but call me whatever you want lol. As a grappler in this game I guess he lacks in terms of the number of ticks he has and I've always said he could do with better/more character-specific ticks than F33 ( because fuck that string -_____- ) but lacking as a grappler might not be true. Although he doesn't have an anti-air grab you have to remember his B1 is godlike, that's probably the reason why he doesn't have an anti-air grab: because he has a bunch of anti-air tools like B1, up ball, D2. Also he has a backwards and forwards command grab which is something pretty much every other grappler doesn't have. And Erron being a better grappler has nothing to do with programming, that's character design. SSSSSSSSSSSSTAHP with the idea that Kanos problems are bad programming lol, it'll be game design or hitbox problems if anything (I think).

Design is cosmetic, the word in itself describes how something moves, looks, and acts. The programming of something is referring to how it functions with everything else, therefore it's programming error. Code written and told what to do, limited by human "instruction." This is what leads me to argue this on that matter. The programming pin points what moves can tic from what moves, erron black wasn't made a better grappler by design standards. Please don't use upball as an AA example, we all know it has issues too. How does AA normals exclude a grappler from having an AA grab? Kotal Kahn has d1, d3, b1 and d2 that all AA, yet he has an AA throw.

 

[Youphemism]

I don't believe that NRS intended for Erron Black to be the best Grappler in the game, or that Kano, the touted grapper to be third at best

Exactly, that just seems like a huge oversight. To make up for this I think it'd only be fair to give him Erron's 21122 and all the ticks that come with it

Design is cosmetic, the word in itself describes how something moves, looks, and acts. The programming of something is referring to how it functions with everything else, therefore it's programming error. Code written and told what to do, limited by human "instruction." This is what leads me to argue this on that matter. The programming pin points what moves can tic from what moves, erron black wasn't made a better grappler by design standards. Please don't use upball as an AA example, we all know it has issues too. How does AA normals exclude a grappler from having an AA grab? Kotal Kahn has d1, d3, b1 and d2 that all AA, yet he has an AA throw.

Exactly, the design of a character is how they act. Erron acts like a grappler, having numerous tick throws, as well as other types of character due to having pressure, mixups, etc because that's how the designers wanted him to be implemented. Commando acts like a defensive variation as it has parries even though it was probably designed more to be a grappler which is harder to be because he doesn't have that many ticks. They designed Kano to only have ticks off of pokes, F33 and jump attacks but that design was implemented by the developers/programmers...but that could be argued all day and isn't the point. At the end of the day throw immunity is a thing, some characters have throw immune moves that have a few throw immune frames and it's just something that's a part of fighting games. Throw immunity isn't what hinders Commando though because most people probably don't even know what moves they have that are throw immune right now, it's (combo) damage and/or lack of significant ticks that makes this variation slightly less effective.

Well firstly I've never seen a single Kotal use D1, D3 or B1 as anti-air tools so I wouldn't say those were anti-air tools but I didn't say AA normals exclude grapplers from having a grab, I'm just saying Kano having multiple anti-air options is probably the reason why he doesn't have an AA grab. Up Ball always works as an anti-air for me but if it doesn't work for you then fine we can just not use it but it is designed as an anti-air tool, effective or not.

 

[ando1184]

Exactly, that just seems like a huge oversight. To make up for this I think it'd only be fair to give him Erron's 21122 and all the ticks that come with it

Exactly, the design of a character is how they act. Erron acts like a grappler, having numerous tick throws, as well as other types of character due to having pressure, mixups, etc because that's how the designers wanted him to be implemented. Commando acts like a defensive variation as it has parries even though it was probably designed more to be a grappler which is harder to be because he doesn't have that many ticks. They designed Kano to only have ticks off of pokes, F33 and jump attacks but that design was implemented by the developers/programmers...but that could be argued all day and isn't the point. At the end of the day throw immunity is a thing, some characters have throw immune moves that have a few throw immune frames and it's just something that's a part of fighting games. Throw immunity isn't what hinders Commando though because most people probably don't even know what moves they have that are throw immune right now, it's (combo) damage and/or lack of significant ticks that makes this variation slightly less effective.

Well firstly I've never seen a single Kotal use D1, D3 or B1 as anti-air tools so I wouldn't say those were anti-air tools but I didn't say AA normals exclude grapplers from having a grab, I'm just saying Kano having multiple anti-air options is probably the reason why he doesn't have an AA grab. Up Ball always works as an anti-air for me but if it doesn't work for you then fine we can just not use it but it is designed as an anti-air tool, effective or not.

Erron Black "acts" like a laid back monotoned bounty hunter with an Eastwood complex. As for your throw immunity comment saying it doesn't hinder his game. I gotta still disagree on that man because say you're at 40% health and your opponent is Kung Lao or anyone who can make your command throw whiff. He has about 10% left and you go for the armored grab because you see him advance at you, only your throw whiffs. He then lands a combo and the match all because your throw whiffed on a READ. This combined with everything else you mentioned (damage, tics) makes him suffer as a grappler/character period. They all gotta matter bro. But I get it bud, you see things your way and I see them mine.

 

[FlappyDaniel]

I dont mind throw immunity, I'd find what moves are throw immune and around them in mind. but it's inconsistent and whiffs on a lot. I had it whiff on like 3 different of Dvorah's strings at offline locals today. If she has that much throw immune then that's pretty crazy

 

[ando1184]

I dont mind throw immunity, I'd find what moves are throw immune and around them in mind. but it's inconsistent and whiffs on a lot. I had it whiff on like 3 different of Dvorah's strings at offline locals today. If she has that much throw immune then that's pretty crazy

I guess the only thing to do now is test how many moves are what you guys call "throw immune"

 

[FlappyDaniel]

Yeah...Idk Ando, I guess. Wish I could just break ribs without hassle

 

[MsMiharo]

I feel the issue is that there is so much match up knowledge required to be effective as commando. Not only does he suffer from poor damage but you have to learn what you can parry vs every character (including which lows should be parties high, which need to be EXd etc). Furthermore you need to learn what will make your grabs whiff vs what characters. I don't mind putting in the work but it's a lot of work.

 

[haketh]

I think the main problem when it comes to grab invul in NRS games is that usually a characters best go to string is one that's invul. Raven's B23 is a great example of this. Generally moves that are grab invul in FGs tend to be more niche normals not ones that you use for all purpose play.

 

[SaltShaker]

I think the main problem when it comes to grab invul in NRS games is that usually a characters best go to string is one that's invul.

I've said this a few times. I think that is the main problem with the throw immune strings. Throw immune strings should be the obscure ones rarely used, giving them a purpose and making it a more skilled reaction. Throwing out Raven's B23 when I was likely to use that string regardless of a throw or not is pretty weak design imo.

 

[LEGI0N47]

Jason has an EX special that does 22% damage.

Kano's grabs do 16% and 17%, it's only 19% and 20% if you spend meter, that's only if it doesn't whiff or trade. Jason's EX Command Grabs do 19% sure, but he gets damage buffs in both Unstoppable and Relentless as well as ways to launch opponents midscreen for combos. Sun God Kotal's Command Grab does 19% meterless max, he also has ways to launch midscreen and can do 34% to 37% meterless combo ending with his command grab.

All I'm asking for is a 2% to 3% damage increase on his normal and EX command grabs. Well, that, and that his 32 string in commando do 10% damage like Cutthroat and Cybernetic. I'm not asking for an overhead, I'm not asking for a launching string, I'm not even asking for more tick throws. All I'm asking for Commando is a tad more damage to make up for not having big combo potential, many tick throws, and overheads.

That is a lot of people's gripe with Commando, he has no real launchers except a low in the corner. Spare me with the "EX ball cancel 37% bruh" stuff please, that's what a 1 frame link. Either way it's extremely tight and I have yet to see one on stream or in tourney. Not practical for most to be able to handle 10/10, myself included, and forget about it on-line lol! Matter of fact why aren't we crying about that? Devorah players cried that bug cancels were to hard from the patch and next pach got the link loosened up. But I agree that the low combo damage, especially meterless, hurts him a lot. I don't think he needs more damage on grabs, but a way to make his combo's count for a little more. Such as a launcher, loosening of EX ball, better scaling after EX ball, improve damage on a main string or extender string, something!

I believe that the way we were intended, or envisioned to play him is to utilize the parry a lot more. Think about landing just one cmd grab and one parry. That adds up to 34%ish meterless. Add in a bit of chip from block and a poke or two and you're easily over 40. But it takes some strong reads on top of conditioning to do this because you whiff one parry and there goes at least a third of your life. Same reason people don't even consider Unbreakable. Crap damage, high risk low reward.

 

[Derptile]

That is a lot of people's gripe with Commando, he has no real launchers except a low in the corner. Spare me with the "EX ball cancel 37% bruh" stuff please, that's what a 1 frame link. Either way it's extremely tight and I have yet to see one on stream or in tourney. Not practical for most to be able to handle 10/10, myself included, and forget about it on-line lol! Matter of fact why aren't we crying about that? Devorah players cried that bug cancels were to hard from the patch and next pach got the link loosened up. But I agree that the low combo damage, especially meterless, hurts him a lot. I don't think he needs more damage on grabs, but a way to make his combo's count for a little more. Such as a launcher, loosening of EX ball, better scaling after EX ball, improve damage on a main string or extender string, something!

I believe that the way we were intended, or envisioned to play him is to utilize the parry a lot more. Think about landing just one cmd grab and one parry. That adds up to 34%ish meterless. Add in a bit of chip from block and a poke or two and you're easily over 40. But it takes some strong reads on top of conditioning to do this because you whiff one parry and there goes at least a third of your life. Same reason people don't even consider Unbreakable. Crap damage, high risk low reward.

Unbreakable is better than Commado though, he does his Niche job far better.

 

[LEGI0N47]

Unbreakable is better than Commado though, he does his Niche job far better.

Perhaps he does his niche job when it comes to parry better because it's a universal move instead of choosing high or low. But I'd rather have the rest of the toolset commando has than unbreakable personally. But I do think the ice armor is hype. Silly I know.

 

[Youphemism]

Erron Black "acts" like a laid back monotoned bounty hunter with an Eastwood complex. As for your throw immunity comment saying it doesn't hinder his game. I gotta still disagree on that man because say you're at 40% health and your opponent is Kung Lao or anyone who can make your command throw whiff. He has about 10% left and you go for the armored grab because you see him advance at you, only your throw whiffs. He then lands a combo and the match all because your throw whiffed on a READ. This combined with everything else you mentioned (damage, tics) makes him suffer as a grappler/character period. They all gotta matter bro. But I get it bud, you see things your way and I see them mine.

Lol woops I phrased that wrong, I meant to say the throw immunity isn't the biggest hindrance to the variation. It doesn't help but his damage just doesn't keep up with a lot of characters and with so few character specific ticks it becomes easier to handle some of his offence. In the end we agree Commando isn't the strongest grappler and that discussion is really the point of this thread

I feel the issue is that there is so much match up knowledge required to be effective as commando. Not only does he suffer from poor damage but you have to learn what you can parry vs every character (including which lows should be parties high, which need to be EXd etc). Furthermore you need to learn what will make your grabs whiff vs what characters. I don't mind putting in the work but it's a lot of work.

Yeah there should be a concise list of holes/gaps/strings/whatever that you can parry and with what parry. But maybe not until after the next patch if they're fixed. Once we get a list of throw immune moves it'll be easier to identify what makes the grabs whiff but someone needs to get on that as soon as possible so grapplers know what they're up against.

 

[ETC AdmiralAugustus]

Yeah there should be a concise list of holes/gaps/strings/whatever that you can parry and with what parry. But maybe not until after the next patch if they're fixed. Once we get a list of throw immune moves it'll be easier to identify what makes the grabs whiff but someone needs to get on that as soon as possible so grapplers know what they're up against.

@FlappyDaniel and I have been working on a parry guide. I have about 75% of the cast finished, but I don't know how much he has finished. Should be up sometime this coming week.

 

[MsMiharo]

I'm starting to think it's time for a pm group (if there isn't one already) to more efficiently share tech. There aren't many of us who take commando seriously (and actually play him, not just theory craft) and it's a shame if stuff gets lost.

 

[MsMiharo]

Lol woops I phrased that wrong, I meant to say the throw immunity isn't the biggest hindrance to the variation. It doesn't help but his damage just doesn't keep up with a lot of characters and with so few character specific ticks it becomes easier to handle some of his offence. In the end we agree Commando isn't the strongest grappler and that discussion is really the point of this thread

Yeah there should be a concise list of holes/gaps/strings/whatever that you can parry and with what parry. But maybe not until after the next patch if they're fixed. Once we get a list of throw immune moves it'll be easier to identify what makes the grabs whiff but someone needs to get on that as soon as possible so grapplers know what they're up against.

Yeah I'm holding out for some fixes/buffs soon

 

[cR Biohazard]

Who is the Akimbo 1887 of MKX?

The last COD I played, the one that was the start of them getting too ridiculous and absurd, was the one where people were using some Super Run Speed perk with Unlimited Running and dual shotguns that killed you with one shot a whole building away.

I don't think these grapplers are that powerful lol.

Scratch out MKX, put in NRS and my answer is Bane