Match-Up Discussion - Sun God Grandmaster...WTF

[Qwark28]

I might start making videos about anti-GM tactics to protect Sub Zero. This character isn't broken, he just has unique tools and sometimes, god forbid, the opponent has to block correctly. Regarding this MU, I spent an hour in the lab and found this stuff, hopefully it'll help change up the mind set Sun God Kotal has vs Grandmaster.

• There's a universal technique to break clone by walking/ running into it and blocking. Blocking extends your hurtbox, crouch blocking extends it even further (varies between characters). You can do this immediately after he forms a clone to cripple his neutral until it's possible to clone again.
• If SZ does anything behind clone but crouch and turtle, Kotal can jik over clone (they like to throw ice ball behind that thing, I know you've seen it). If he does turtle...
• Kotal can reversal backdash and gain substantial amounts of life and meter through god ray, whiffed air take downs, soul spark/ scorch, etc. He can even deal damage to SZ if he chooses to. Sub has to approach a powered up Kotal, and once he does...
• If SZ throws clone (this is his best way to approach) and Kotal parries it, he can immediately go into his pressure or even punish if SZ tries to go in. Parry clone-throw > b122 is going to blow an approach up. Afterwards, parry > b1 xx choke (or various tick throw set ups) once SZ starts respecting it. Unfortunately though, Kotal cannot parry shatter.
• Kotal has one chance to approach if SZ fails to utilize clone after being blown up by parry, and there's not much SZ can do to stop him. For those who don't know, clone stays out for 4 seconds, and has a 5 second total cool down.

If you guys ever feel bad about Sun God, feel like it has the worst match-up in the game please... take a look at Unbreakable Sub Zero vs. any other character.

I'm going to reduce this post to dust once I get home. Tons of misinformation.

 

[RM Ree]

Please do. "Reduce to dust" seems like a very angry way to put it, but if that's how small of a person you are that mere words about a video game offend you, so be it.

I'll look forward to reading what you find.

 

[Qwark28]

I might start making videos about anti-GM tactics to protect Sub Zero. This character isn't broken, he just has unique tools and sometimes, god forbid, the opponent has to block correctly. Regarding this MU, I spent an hour in the lab and found this stuff, hopefully it'll help change up the mind set Sun God Kotal has vs Grandmaster.

• There's a universal technique to break clone by walking/ running into it and blocking. Blocking extends your hurtbox, crouch blocking extends it even further (varies between characters). You can do this immediately after he forms a clone to cripple his neutral until it's possible to clone again.

And you're -15 right in front of him. This is basic knowledge.

• If SZ does anything behind clone but crouch and turtle, Kotal can jik over clone (they like to throw ice ball behind that thing, I know you've seen it). If he does turtle...

• 
  
• Kotal can jik over clone... and so can any other member of the cast. I don't know who you're playing that literally does nothing but hold down + block and mindlessly throw stuff.

• Kotal can reversal backdash and gain substantial amounts of life and meter through god ray, whiffed air take downs, soul spark/ scorch, etc. He can even deal damage to SZ if he chooses to. Sub has to approach a powered up Kotal, and once he does...

Reversal backdash against what? Sun ray is a gimmick, again basic stuff. If he has a clone out he gets an even better punish with ex slide into it. Air throws are good for building meter and spark/scorch at least is something you can do.

The tempo of the match is decided absolutely by SZ. He has a wall you cannot go through unless you make a risky read on one of the multiple options he COULD have done.

• If SZ throws clone (this is his best way to approach) and Kotal parries it, he can immediately go into his pressure or even punish if SZ tries to go in. Parry clone-throw > b122 is going to blow an approach up. Afterwards, parry > b1 xx choke (or various tick throw set ups) once SZ starts respecting it. Unfortunately though, Kotal cannot parry shatter.

Subzero doesn't need to approach. Even when the lifelead is yours he needs to just walk forward and lay a clone, eventually he'll corner you, a few steps at a time. And once you're in the corner you simply don't get out, 100% safe mixups into 50% combos, ex shatter now anti airs into clone combos and a better ranged D4.

Parrying an ice clone doesn't give you a punish unless he makes a second mistake. B122 is unsafe, B1 tick throw is also unsafe. He must make 2 mistakes so you can get an unsafe approach out.
[/QUOTE]

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

Can you not just ex sunlight, sit in it, parry all projectiles/clone tosses and build meter with whiff air grab while running away?
Surely GM must be a match where ex sunlight is really useful.

 

[RM Ree]

I see. Those are good points, and I'm not going to say the match up is a good one for Sun God. Let me try to explain why I listed what I did and defend the points a little.

- being -15 (from blocking clone I assume, -4 clone plus however many frames it takes the opponent to shatter it with block, probably is very positive) means Kotal has to block 1 mix up between a low and a reactable, punishable overhead. But SZ no longer has a clone to cancel into, giving Kotal the advantage in both pressure and real estate upon successfully defending.

- As SZ, I crouch behind clone to avoid a jik/ jip. I play a lot of other GM's that will auto pilot clone>ice ball and punish accordingly. And unfortunately, not all members of the kast has a good enough jik/jip to do this.

- Reversal back dash whatever string/ normal SZ cancels into clone, just for fastest possible distance. Admittedly God/ Sun Ray are gimmicky options, but +20% health for a bar when you're not doing much else isn't bad.

SZ will control the pace of the match. That's Grandmasters thing. It's requires a lot more effort on Sun God Kotals part to deal with him, but variations y'know.

If SZ uses clone to approach, parry and pressure. If he approaches without clone, own the neutral with d4 or other strong normals. If he fails to use clone and it disappears, approach. When you're in the corner, you should be scared. SZ is designed to own the corner. He can actually hurt War God worse than Sun God here.

After parrying the clone toss, b122 might be unsafe but you can end it early, use a different string, poke, etc. You pressure as you would any other time. Tick throw being unsafe is the risk/ reward of that technique, so be it.

I like where this is going though. Flesh it out some more, I don't know Kotal well enough.

 

[Qwark28]

Can you not just ex sunlight, sit in it, parry all projectiles/clone tosses and build meter with whiff air grab while running away?
Surely GM must be a match where ex sunlight is really useful.

Not with 90~ recovery framea and 20~ frame startup.

I see. Those are good points, and I'm not going to say the match up is a good one for Sun God. Let me try to explain why I listed what I did and defend the points a little.

- being -15 (from blocking clone I assume, -4 clone plus however many frames it takes the opponent to shatter it with block, probably is very positive) means Kotal has to block 1 mix up between a low and a reactable, punishable overhead. But SZ no longer has a clone to cancel into, giving Kotal the advantage in both pressure and real estate upon successfully defending.

16f is not reactable. Nor does he have to do a 50-50 or cancel into a clone. You're not at an advantage and are assuming the best scenarios in which the GM player would majorly fuck up.

- As SZ, I crouch behind clone to avoid a jik/ jip. I play a lot of other GM's that will auto pilot clone>ice ball and punish accordingly. And unfortunately, not all members of the kast has a good enough jik/jip to do this.

And that's the problem, you're not supposed to base the matchup off of inexperience, gimmicks or lack of skill. Just because they are predictable does not mean a good player will either.

- Reversal back dash whatever string/ normal SZ cancels into clone, just for fastest possible distance. Admittedly God/ Sun Ray are gimmicky options, but +20% health for a bar when you're not doing much else isn't bad.

It's not 20% health, it'1% per 0.5/6 seconds, even if you set the gimmick up, all it takes is for Sub to put a clone near you and you will most likely be forced away, unless you want to let him in for free in order to recover some health he will just chip with F42 anyway.

SZ will control the pace of the match. That's Grandmasters thing. It's requires a lot more effort on Sun God Kotals part to deal with him, but variations y'know.

And that's why it's bad. War god goes even with him, the rest don't. Because War god has armour that punishes clone and moves that bait out armour and still just goes even.

If SZ uses clone to approach, parry and pressure. If he approaches without clone, own the neutral with d4 or other strong normals. If he fails to use clone and it disappears, approach. When you're in the corner, you should be scared. SZ is designed to own the corner. He can actually hurt War God worse than Sun God here.

Parry and pressure what? Throw out a desperation random parry midscreen to catch limbs in the suspicion SZ threw out something? You don't own the neutral. You lose the neutral when the clone is not out exactly because he can throw it out willy nilly, the clone is more dangerous to deal with when it's not on the screen, that's the threat of it. When it comes to "just use d4/own the neutral" that's like me saying to always outpoke and read every single normal my opponent will throw out. Watch how many times and in which distances Alucard's throwing out normals and that's against a sub-par SZ who is just doing basic clone turtling.

After parrying the clone toss, b122 might be unsafe but you can end it early, use a different string, poke, etc. You pressure as you would any other time. Tick throw being unsafe is the risk/ reward of that technique, so be it.

Yes. And that's why this is bad. You have a character who must take risks when he spends 90% of the match hunting Sub down in order to play with bad risk/reward even when he gets in. War god is also unsafe but he does so much better because he doesn't have the issue of being kept out whenever he has at least 1 bar.
[/QUOTE]

 

[RM Ree]

You're an argumentative, misinformed, easily excitable guy @Qwark28. This reminds me of how you insisted your way was the only way to set up Sub Zero's throw break trap. You were wrong then, and there's a good chance you're wrong now. I'm sorry I can't help you see that, I'm over trying to help, and I'm sorry the Kotal community is being held back by the vibes you're putting out. If you think you're that credible and I'm not, that's fine. But SZ's b2 is 17 frames, not 16. How many other mistakes do you think you made?

For anyone else reading this; hit the lab yourselves, take what I said with a grain of salt, and use what I posted if you find it helpful.

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

Not with 90~ recovery framea and 20~ frame startup.
16f is not reactable. Nor does he have to do a 50-50 or cancel into a clone. You're not at an advantage and are assuming the best scenarios in which the GM player would majorly fuck up.

Subs overhead is reactable

 

[RM Ree]

@A F0xy Grampa I had originally tagged you, remembering you saying so. I deleted it, didn't want to drag you in lol

 

[M.D.]

You can't call Sub's overhead reactable. L()L this discussion again, hasn't everyone got this 5 months ago with that millia rage flash?
There were literally like 2 people <claiming> to be able to react under 17 frames. Of course, it's reactable in the true sense of the word, the AI reacts to it every time.

 

[skater11]

Let's just make ice clone sacrifice
3-5% health each time it's used and we'll call it fair. (EX clone 0%)

 

[EntropicByDesign]

This thread inspired me to try out SG Kotal... And now I am in love with the Ko-Ko. (I hate myself.. But I could not resist teh punzzzzzzzzz).

But seriously, I think I might have found another co-main. Ive always liked WG Kotal but SG is just over-the-top fun as fawk. Got nothing relevant to add beyond that.

 

[-narshkajke-]

I can see where this thread is going, familiar faces everywhere

 

[Prinz]

 

[Qwark28]

You're an argumentative, misinformed, easily excitable guy @Qwark28. This reminds me of how you insisted your way was the only way to set up Sub Zero's throw break trap. You were wrong then, and there's a good chance you're wrong now. I'm sorry I can't help you see that, I'm over trying to help, and I'm sorry the Kotal community is being held back by the vibes you're putting out. If you think you're that credible and I'm not, that's fine. But SZ's b2 is 17 frames, not 16. How many other mistakes do you think you made?

For anyone else reading this; hit the lab yourselves, take what I said with a grain of salt, and use what I posted if you find it helpful.

Maybe you should listen to people who main the character you try to make so many points for instead of getting mad when you admit you don't play or know a lot about Kotal.

So far I've provided points and you've provided nothing but a defensive, emotional and insecure reply.

 

[RVB]

This thread inspired me to try out SG Kotal... And now I am in love with the Ko-Ko.

 

[RM Ree]

Cut and dry:
- Parrying clone toss leaves Kotal at slight adv., not parrying clone toss leaves SZ at slight adv.
- Kotal (or anyone else) can walk/ run > block to destroy clones, but leaving Kotal at unk. disadvantage.
- Sun spark/ scorch mid screen is safe in the event SZ turtles behind clone. God/ sun ray can be punished on reaction in the same situation.
- Clone lasts for 4 seconds, cool down is 5 seconds.

I suspect Kotal wins the neutral and pressure game if he finds way around clone.

 

[mattnin]

Can you not just ex sunlight, sit in it, parry all projectiles/clone tosses and build meter with whiff air grab while running away?
Surely GM must be a match where ex sunlight is really useful.

Kotal is screwed if people think we should just sunlight our way out of a clone game. It's a slow move and Kotal doesn't get to benefit from it much against even mildly advanced opponents. That's why you don't see it being used all that much. Kotal healing himself inside a sunlight is more like a deer in the headlights, it just puts a huge spotlight on Kotal and says 'come attack me'. This sucks for Sun God and Blood God because they have like basically zero defense. Other than expertly blocking, SG and BG's options are to parry and air grab which are difficult to use even after the last buff. When was the last time you fought against a Kotal who was consistently air grabbing you every time you jumped in? I bet it has been awhile. When was the last time you seen a Kotal parry most of your ice balls or clone tosses? Rarely right? Often, Kotal eats a full combo punish for a failed ice ball parry.

What's the solution? Other than picking another character or variation? We can't even suggest it's a bad matchup without offending the multitude of Grandmasters so we certainly can't ask for a nerf. It's also difficult to ask for another Kotal buff because he is on the verge of being quite powerful. It would be nice if sunlight was really a factor. Maybe sunlight should be buffed. Ughh, I hate suggesting buffs though, it makes me feel so dirty.

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

Kotal is screwed if people think we should just sunlight our way out of a clone game. It's a slow move and Kotal doesn't get to benefit from it much against even mildly advanced opponents. That's why you don't see it being used all that much. Kotal healing himself inside a sunlight is more like a deer in the headlights, it just puts a huge spotlight on Kotal and says 'come attack me'. This sucks for Sun God and Blood God because they have like basically zero defense. Other than expertly blocking, SG and BG's options are to parry and air grab which are difficult to use even after the last buff. When was the last time you fought against a Kotal who was consistently air grabbing you every time you jumped in? I bet it has been awhile. When was the last time you seen a Kotal parry most of your ice balls or clone tosses? Rarely right? Often, Kotal eats a full combo punish for a failed ice ball parry.

What's the solution? Other than picking another character or variation? We can't even suggest it's a bad matchup without offending the multitude of Grandmasters so we certainly can't ask for a nerf. It's also difficult to ask for another Kotal buff because he is on the verge of being quite powerful. It would be nice if sunlight was really a factor. Maybe sunlight should be buffed. Ughh, I hate suggesting buffs though, it makes me feel so dirty.

No, if you run full screen and ex sunlight you should be able to get the lifelead back right? Why do people always think to run towards sub zero? The clone isnt going to hurt you if you dont go near it.

Also, if you cant parry an iceball, thats your fault lol thats slow as fuck.

Aaaaaaaaaaand, I play Madzins Kotal alot, and he's 1 of the best you guys have soooooo...

Its just a thought, obviously its not an ideal match, but that doesnt mean you have to follow a particular gameplan that you expect to work on every other character.

 

[Qwark28]

No, if you run full screen and ex sunlight you should be able to get the lifelead back right? Why do people always think to run towards sub zero? The clone isnt going to hurt you if you dont go near it.

Also, if you cant parry an iceball, thats your fault lol thats slow as fuck.

Aaaaaaaaaaand, I play Madzins Kotal alot, and he's 1 of the best you guys have soooooo...

Its just a thought, obviously its not an ideal match, but that doesnt mean you have to follow a particular gameplan that you expect to work on every other character.

Going fullscreen is an option but if SZ follows you or even throws a random fullscreen fireball he will catch you on recovery. EX sunlight is not a great tool in this matchup.

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

Going fullscreen is an option but if SZ follows you or even throws a random fullscreen fireball he will catch you on recovery. EX sunlight is not a great tool in this matchup.

Ok how about in sun god, leveling up to level 3 and cashing out for health?

 

[Qwark28]

Ok how about in sun god, leveling up to level 3 and cashing out for health?

Completely viable. There's no need to chase SZ until he has the lifelead and that's a way to take it back.

IMO Blood god has it worst, Sun god has it kind of bad and War god goes 5-5. Blood is the only one that must chase.

 

[Qwark28]

Kotal is screwed if people think we should just sunlight our way out of a clone game. It's a slow move and Kotal doesn't get to benefit from it much against even mildly advanced opponents. That's why you don't see it being used all that much. Kotal healing himself inside a sunlight is more like a deer in the headlights, it just puts a huge spotlight on Kotal and says 'come attack me'. This sucks for Sun God and Blood God because they have like basically zero defense. Other than expertly blocking, SG and BG's options are to parry and air grab which are difficult to use even after the last buff. When was the last time you fought against a Kotal who was consistently air grabbing you every time you jumped in? I bet it has been awhile. When was the last time you seen a Kotal parry most of your ice balls or clone tosses? Rarely right? Often, Kotal eats a full combo punish for a failed ice ball parry.

What's the solution? Other than picking another character or variation? We can't even suggest it's a bad matchup without offending the multitude of Grandmasters so we certainly can't ask for a nerf. It's also difficult to ask for another Kotal buff because he is on the verge of being quite powerful. It would be nice if sunlight was really a factor. Maybe sunlight should be buffed. Ughh, I hate suggesting buffs though, it makes me feel so dirty.

IMO he is already quite powerful, he doesn't need any buffs. There aren't any really bad matchups that pop up across variations.

 

[ChaosTheory]

What's the solution? Other than picking another character or variation? We can't even suggest it's a bad matchup without offending the multitude of Grandmasters so we certainly can't ask for a nerf.

Why do you need another solution other than changing your pick? That's the entire point of having three variations. In this case specifically, you don't even have to leave your character.

And I don't think any Sub players even went as far as to say that it's an even match-up. Let alone get offended if you suggest it's a bad match-up.

And of course you can't suggest a nerf for GM. Or a buff for SG/BG for that matter. That's silly. Kotal Kahn is a strong character across three variations. We're talking about one particular variation that gives him trouble here. You can't buff/nerf characters based on that criteria. Then you're fucking with said characters' balance with 27 other characters. Butterfly effect.

And again, even if all the outside-the-box thinking, experimentation, and grinding in the world still doesn't help SG/BG vs GM (which it still might).... you've already got one solution at your disposal and his name is Kotal Kahn, too.

 

[mattnin]

Also, if you cant parry an iceball, thats your fault lol thats slow as fuck.

Aaaaaaaaaaand, I play Madzins Kotal alot, and he's 1 of the best you guys have soooooo...

Have you ever played as Kotal in a matchup against an experienced GM and tried using parry against ice balls and clones? Not everyone has Madzin-like godly parry skills. I feel like I'm quite good with parry actually and I eat about one in every four ice balls. Considering how often ice balls are spammed, that's a lot of full combo punishes against Kotal and that's hard to recover from.

I shouldn't even have suggested sunlight be tweaked and I take back that comment. I'm actually quite happy with Kotal and his shortcomings. If he was any stronger than everyone would play him and that would suck.

Like has been suggested, just play War God or some other character against GM if you really must guarantee a win. Kotal has a huge loyalist following however and many Sun Gods frown on War Gods and many Blood Gods frown on Sun Gods lol and refuse to even consider playing other variations.