Match-Up Discussion - Sun God Grandmaster...WTF

[mattnin]

No one here is suggesting that GM is broken or should be nerfed, just that Sun God (and Blood God) are horribly matched up against GM. This thread isn't meant to tear down GM, but to help Kotal players. So if you're a GM loyalist, or just anti-Kotal and have no tech to share, get the hell out of this thread. I benefited in a Blood God vs. GM match yesterday and won at timeout due to helpful posts and comments in this thread especially the Madzin vid.

 

[GAV]

No one here is suggesting that GM is broken or should be nerfed, just that Sun God (and Blood God) are horribly matched up against GM. This thread isn't meant to tear down GM, but to help Kotal players. So if you're a GM loyalist, or just anti-Kotal and have no tech to share, get the hell out of this thread. I benefited in a Blood God vs. GM match yesterday and won at timeout due to helpful posts and comments in this thread especially the Madzin vid.

I've been able to 114 through a clone to an EX air grab slam to a F2 (neutral) F2 (neutral) 212 Sun Throw, but I don't really quite understand the tech behind it. It seems like I get through sometimes and sometimes I get frozen, so I generally save that for the ends of rounds because its kind of risky. If I knew how the tech behind it worked, I could possibly expand on its use. I know if the first 1 doesn't hit the clone up close, its a lost cause.

 

[EntropicByDesign]

Hopefully that's not I'm reference to my post, as that wasnt my intention. I speaking from a general advice standpoint because I don't have any SG experience but I have fought a lot of GM players. The reason I was saying that GM is strong but not broken, is again , based on mindset.

Lets say you and I play a set and you're playing a character I believe to be OP, or, at the least, OP vs whoever it is I'm playing as. If I go in to the match with the idea that your character is op or that it hopelessly out classes me, I'm not that likely to try and alter how I typically play to try and counter you or learn the MU. Mentally I'm more likely to say well, I'm trying everything I can (ie playing how I normally play) and its not working, well he's just OP so nothing I can do.. I'll keep doing the stuff that I do in all my other MUs.

Obviously not everyone will approach it that way, but many will. That was all I was trying to address.

 

[ChaosTheory]

So these are actually all good matchups vs GM you say?

Depends on what you mean by "good." Having options to combat the Clone is one thing. Completely negating it is another.

I still just see this as the epitome of the variation system's purpose. The point is when a situation like this arises, a player doesn't have to leave a character he loves (Kotal Kahn) to counter a bad match-up. Now, that doesn't mean you stop looking for tactics to improve the match-up. Hopefully you find something that helps. But if you don't/can't; that's why the system exists.

So you can't be too quick to call something a problem in the game because not only are there other characters that combat it or outright beat it... but a lot of times there's another variation within the same character that you can turn to. I like that a lot of guys seem to still be searching for Sun God answers and/or are willing to turn to War God for the match-up without saying that Clone needs 5-second cool-down or whatever. I'd say the same about Sub-Zero players facing D'Vorah or something.

 

[RVB]

I've been able to 114 through a clone to an EX air grab slam to a F2 (neutral) F2 (neutral) 212 Sun Throw, but I don't really quite understand the tech behind it. It seems like I get through sometimes and sometimes I get frozen, so I generally save that for the ends of rounds because its kind of risky. If I knew how the tech behind it worked, I could possibly expand on its use. I know if the first 1 doesn't hit the clone up close, its a lost cause.

Most likely Sub Zero was near or inside the klone enough that you could touch him and make the klone disappear, I use the same tech in the GM mirror to b12 through the klone IF my opponent makes the mistake of getting inside the ice statue.
So the matchup is not in Sun God's favor but patience, a good neutral game and footsies can bring it back around AND like someone mentioned before THE RIGHT MINDSET.

So all this belly aching isn't helping anyone let alone Sun God.

 

[GAV]

Most likely Sub Zero was near or inside the klone enough that you could touch him and make the klone disappear, I use the same tech in the GM mirror to b12 through the klone IF my opponent makes the mistake of getting inside the ice statue.
So the matchup is not in Sun God's favor but patience, a good neutral game and footsies can bring it back around AND like someone mentioned before THE RIGHT MINDSET.

So all this belly aching isn't helping anyone let alone Sun God.

Depends on what you want. NRS has been known to bend to pressure. Kotal Khan is a pretty straight-forward character, so those that use him tend to be pretty straight-forward with their words. Rarely, do Kotal players downplay or up-play. Now, I might gif and meme bomb - but when I speak, its from the heart on what I know.

When I'm able to see through downplaying, here's my reaction...

 

[RVB]

Why are you so aggressive? OP posted for advice.
Are you really just here to stir shit up?

Yes the OP asked for advice, that's commendable and no where near related to what I was talking about.
What bothers me if the people that instead of offering advice come and say crap like " SZ klone is overpowered" and refuse to accept the simple notion that there ARE ways and tools to deal with the klone available in the game.
Maybe Sun God doesn't have the tools to deal with the klone but that alone doesn't justify scrubs moaning over SZ... AGAIN.
Now you see my point?
Granted my posts are very so take them with a grain of salt or a table spoon full.

 

[M.D.]

Well, clone is not overpowered in itself, but adding the rest of Sub's general tools it makes a pretty..more powered than the others combination.



:>

 

[Skedar70]

Putting sun ray on yourself for healing and parry the clone toss and ice seems like a good strategy to me. You will then force sub zero to come at you. So get the life lead(if you don't have it heal until you do) and then lame it out (just like most subzero GM players do). You can also mix in some of that new charge up move he has to get him to level three and heal some more. Be patient. This is your only viable strategy using sun god if you don't want to play this way pick war god or another character.

 

[RVB]

Well, clone is not overpowered in itself, but adding the rest of Sub's general tools it makes a pretty..more powered than the others combination.



:>

I admire your persistence

 

[esc1]

really doesn't make any sense clone can block projectiles, yet SZ can throw ice balls from behind it

 

[ChaosTheory]

really doesn't make any sense clone can block projectiles, yet SZ can throw ice balls from behind it

I suppose. But a lot of things don't make sense from a consistency perspective just so gameplay directions/mechanics can be applied. Erron Black doesn't take damage from Caltrops and can run through them, can't he?

 

[GAV]

really doesn't make any sense clone can block projectiles, yet SZ can throw ice balls from behind it

Neither does it make sense that characters can fly, teleport, summon fire from nothing, throw a spear that pulls you close and puts you to sleep, throws fans than spin in place and cut you if they hit you, throw lightning, throw a person that does damage but takes none, can slam you telekinetically, can cut himself to do more damage, can summon bone weapons from thin air, .... do I really need to keep going?

 

[esc1]

salty enough to create a meme.. nice

 

[sling1414]

Ok guys enough tearing down GM sub, that wasn't the point of this thread lol

Anyways on topic, as a sub main whose training partner mains kotal, I have spent days trying to figure this match up out with my buddy, and neither of us can see a way in which kotal wins the match up, war god is probably an even match up however and the best advice I can give u is to swap to that variant for this match up.

 

[mkl]

Wargod is the better matchup, but you can't any sword through unless you ex it. If you don't have bar to spend, at close range you can use db2 or df2 and at distance you can use db1. It's pretty situational though, and using either one at the wrong distance will get you frozen.

You can use any sword even non-EX. You just have to be a magician when judging the distance. OSS is the most difficult to judge distance wise but it's doable. I'm not talking about taking a hit of armor to go through the clone, I'm talking actually going through the clone with your distanced strikes. db1, df2, db2, db3 all go through but can leave you frozen with bad distance judgment. df2 is the easiest but I have a Sub friend who can slide me on reaction for doing it, somefuckinghow. The problem is everything but df2 and db3u is slide punishable, at least.

 

[Kotal_Wannabe]

You can use any sword even non-EX. You just have to be a magician when judging the distance. OSS is the most difficult to judge distance wise but it's doable. I'm not talking about taking a hit of armor to go through the clone, I'm talking actually going through the clone with your distanced strikes. db1, df2, db2, db3 all go through but can leave you frozen with bad distance judgment. df2 is the easiest but I have a Sub friend who can slide me on reaction for doing it, somefuckinghow. The problem is everything but df2 and db3u is slide punishable, at least.

The way you said "But if you're in WG you can just *Any* Sword through that shit." made it sound like you were saying it's easy in wargod, when in reality it's situational both for the type of sword attack gotta use to beat the clone and the potential counter attack from sub.

 

[Qwark28]

The matchup is in subzero's favour.

What Kotal has to do is get the lifelead and use the time that sub spends turtling to whiff air throws and build meter.

As usual, in the matchups where you want to pick war god over any other variation, it's because of the sword. So you need meter. Every blocked ex OSS screws you over big time.

 

[number2headband]

This exhibition between Alucard and KoreyTheDragon (one of the best Subs/Quans in Texas) happened recently, and Alucard is doing some shit in the matchup worth noting.

SG Kotal vs GM Sub starts at 11:47, and the first round Alucard gets pushed around a bit and downloads Korey's clone patterns. Second round starts 12:17 and right away Kotal does.. nothing. He has has no threat of clone if he doesn't advance, and the only other range option, ice ball deals no (chip) damage but can still be parried, as you see shortly with a parry into punish on the start up frames of the clone toss for 50%. Around 13:55 or so, Alucard is cornered by the clone, and jumpback1 has a sweetspot to clip Sub's head if he rushes in, while missing the clone which he uses to escape pressure. At about 16:05 J1 also bops a clone clean from overhead. J1 is king.

Korey was unfamiliar some of his setups, and was lookin pretty free to tickthrows, so there is some variance here, but all in all, I don't think this is a 9-1 anymore.

All in all, I'd say SG vs GM, SG actually has the advantage at equal health neutral. He can parry all of Sub's ranged options, and has the option now to charge sun stacks and cash them in as needed. He can chill until Sub tries to rushdown, and then Kotal can play his footsies. I think this matchup has become a very spacing dependant, whiff-punish kind of matchup.

 

[Qwark28]

This exhibition between Alucard and KoreyTheDragon (one of the best Subs/Quans in Texas) happened recently, and Alucard is doing some shit in the matchup worth noting.

SG Kotal vs GM Sub starts at 11:47, and the first round Alucard gets pushed around a bit and downloads Korey's clone patterns. Second round starts 12:17 and right away Kotal does.. nothing. He has has no threat of clone if he doesn't advance, and the only other range option, ice ball deals no (chip) damage but can still be parried, as you see shortly with a parry into punish on the start up frames of the clone toss for 50%. Around 13:55 or so, Alucard is cornered by the clone, and jumpback1 has a sweetspot to clip Sub's head if he rushes in, while missing the clone which he uses to escape pressure. At about 16:05 J1 also bops a clone clean from overhead. J1 is king.

Korey was unfamiliar some of his setups, and was lookin pretty free to tickthrows, so there is some variance here, but all in all, I don't think this is a 9-1 anymore.

All in all, I'd say SG vs GM, SG actually has the advantage at equal health neutral. He can parry all of Sub's ranged options, and has the option now to charge sun stacks and cash them in as needed. He can chill until Sub tries to rushdown, and then Kotal can play his footsies. I think this matchup has become a very spacing dependant, whiff-punish kind of matchup.

You're not serious.

Korey obviously doesn't know the matchup and switched to the grandmaster matchup because it's ridiculously favourable and he lost because he let Alucard get away with murder.

Doesn't punish B122, a 45f on whiff command grab, throws iceballs and goes into clone toss when Alucard is using up meter on a read, dashes in without respecting how little + he is after clone toss, does random ex slide to put himself in the corner on hit, didn't do optimal BnBs or knockdowns and spent literally all his bars on ex clones.

He got outplayed, that's all. Don't judge matchups off of 2 people who haven't played hundreds of games at the same high lvl of skill.

 

[ChaosTheory]

That's a bad example of the match-up. And that's some of the worst meter-management I've seen.

 

[EntropicByDesign]

Alucard doe....... Every time I see him play SG, I wanna play SG. Then I play SG, and I dont wanna play SG.

 

[RM Ree]

I might start making videos about anti-GM tactics to protect Sub Zero. This character isn't broken, he just has unique tools and sometimes, god forbid, the opponent has to block correctly. Regarding this MU, I spent an hour in the lab and found this stuff, hopefully it'll help change up the mind set Sun God Kotal has vs Grandmaster.

• There's a universal technique to break clone by walking/ running into it and blocking. Blocking extends your hurtbox, crouch blocking extends it even further (varies between characters). You can do this immediately after he forms a clone to cripple his neutral until it's possible to clone again.
• If SZ does anything behind clone but crouch and turtle, Kotal can jik over clone (they like to throw ice ball behind that thing, I know you've seen it). If he does turtle...
• Kotal can reversal backdash and gain substantial amounts of life and meter through god ray, whiffed air take downs, soul spark/ scorch, etc. He can even deal damage to SZ if he chooses to. Sub has to approach a powered up Kotal, and once he does...
• If SZ throws clone (this is his best way to approach) and Kotal parries it, he can immediately go into his pressure or even punish if SZ tries to go in. Parry clone-throw > b122 is going to blow an approach up. Afterwards, parry > b1 xx choke (or various tick throw set ups) once SZ starts respecting it. Unfortunately though, Kotal cannot parry shatter.
• Kotal has one chance to approach if SZ fails to utilize clone after being blown up by parry, and there's not much SZ can do to stop him. For those who don't know, clone stays out for 4 seconds, and has a 5 second total cool down.

If you guys ever feel bad about Sun God, feel like it has the worst match-up in the game please... take a look at Unbreakable Sub Zero vs. any other character.

 

[Hellbringer]

lol yeah good luck doing b122 after iceclone parry if he throws clone from midscreen. If he throws it from closer then u have better options because u can duck it or low profile.

 

[RM Ree]

Lol it works man, I don't need the luck, it's already been done. Odds are the SZ is about to start his own pressure and Kotal will beat it clean. The parry gives Kotal a damage bonus too so you get extra chip and actual damage plus a charge if the tick throw is successful. If you don't like b122, you could go with that long range string for general pressure options. I think low profiling the clone toss is leaving easy damage on the table. To each his own though.