Match-Up Discussion - Sun God Grandmaster...WTF

[ChaosTheory]

Oh and as far as Brady combos, Ree301 is right. He'll likely switch at some point. He told me I was wrong when I first posted about Sub's b1,2,1 BnB in MK9.

 

[Prinz]

It's the fact that it's i17 and has a HUGE sweeping arm motion. i17 is really difficult to react to without a big tip-off, but I think b2 has big enough of a tip off. Still, it's i17 so it's still going to hit from time to time especially in random stray hits in neutral since i17 isn't THAT slow. But when you're expecting the 50/50 it's definitely one of the easier 50/50s to see. EDIT: If I remember right it hits on i18 so that gives you a bit more time to react.



I think if King polished up his BG it'd be pretty good. Picking him against Lao is not terrible, especially since BG gets like a full bar of meter for being thrown when Obsidian is down lol. I still don't think that's the optimal variation against him even with that weird pseudo-glitch.

BG with obsidian totem also gets bar when blocking iceballs and clones while sitting in the sun ray :/

 

[mkl]

Anyway, I apologize for making a Sun God centric MU thread Blood God focused.

 

[mattnin]

LBSH, if King can take rounds off Kung Lao with Blood God, Grand Master shouldn't be a problem. So much so Sun God as he's got parry and projectile.

Kung Lao is not difficult for Blood God. Personally, im very comfortable with Lao vs BG. This is actually a very good matchup for BG in my opinion. Just because blood God is good vs Lao doesn't mean he's good vs GM

 

[mkl]

BG with obsidian totem also gets bar when blocking iceballs and clones while sitting in the sun ray :/

If only Sun Ray wasn't i8429. ;_;

 

[RM Ree]

I think a lot of reactable debate comes down to both of the players. If you had SZ set to d4 or b2 at 2 sec intervals, you'd stand to block the OH on reaction every time. It's the rest of what's going on that slows your reaction time down. If he's going low, throwing, staggering pressure, poking, and moving to mask the movement of his usual normals, /then/ goes for the mix up? Things become a little less black and white.

The more stress that's on the table, the less steam our brains have, the slower our reactions become.

 

[I GOT HANDS]

To make a shatter combo work, you need to land a combo that leaves them in the corner, end it in F12/NjK, and then set-up a Clone which comes with these negative aspects towards landing the combo

• Doesn't catch Kotal's D1 and some of his other moves if you decide to try block armor
• Sacrifices perfect positioning for throw into clone, which is IMO the absolute strongest thing about Sub, however, you can still run in and do it, it's just worse and you don't have the frames to beat out a lot of stuff (D1 included)
• The fact that the clone positioning gives your opponent more options and yourself less options for getting in is even more negative than it seems at surface level, because if you read anything that doesn't let you 50/50 them, the sacrifices you made are completely wasted because the Clone will time out meaning you can't use a shatter combo anyway, making the sacrifices to your corner jail completely wasted.
• Its also highly telegraphed, the only reason to place a Clone as such is if you are going for the Shatter combo

So saying that you then read no armor, and land the second reactable+highly punishable 50/50 you threw out in a row, and thats off a no armour read, and all the other sacrifices you've made DO happen to trade off - you get bout 10% on top of your normal combo, giving you 51% with B2.


Shatters aren't useless, especially if your opponent has no meter, but let's not pretend Sub just has a 50% corner combo on a whim like that.

Reacting to the overhead is half of every battle, it's a 50/50... These combos start from lows as well.

F12 is objectively better than NJK as an ender.

The game is still young. These will show up in higher level play (if Tom comes back to MK to practice and stops dropping them). If you'd rather pretend they didn't exist than fear them, I think I can speak for he entire GM community when I say, that's perfectly ok.

NjK is better vs Lao, Reptile, and some other fast advancing armour




I'm sorry I just don't think Tom's Sub is objectively worse at all, it's at least equally viable as setting up Shatter combos. Tom recognizes the trade offs and plays his way, a single throw into Clone makes up for the damage lost by even 2 missed opportunities for Shatter combos. And as I pointed out earlier, against good players I really don't think we landing Shatter combo's anywhere NEAR as consistently as throw combos.

 

[Wigy]

I'm not saying do a totem while in the corner. Especially when Sub's mixup is reactable outside of run in throws. GM's can slide you (at least) on reaction for pretty much anything you do while you're in their zone. Just have patience and weather the storm while in the corner. This isn't even BG specific, it's all character specific.



A high/low that is reactable and if you block either option and then get hit by the next one might fuck up the proper timing of the clone shatter combo. It's not unviable but I rarely ever see it actually happen in a high level GM match against quality opponents.

Lets stop saying b3 and b2 are reactable: they are not.

 

[I GOT HANDS]

Lets stop saying b3 and b2 are reactable: they are not.

B3 isn't, B2 has a very nice windup animation and 18 f start up. I mean, I'm sure you personally can punish in 11 frame windows after blocking something right, think about what 18 frames actually is, it's pretty significant

I'm not good enough to Consistently recognise and react to it in the course of a game (same story for ME with many similar 18f starters), however this is one I get about half the time. And that's just me. I fully believe someone who practiced harder or is naturally better than me could do it 99 times out of 100.

 

[mkl]

Lets stop saying b3 and b2 are reactable: they are not.

i18 is in the realm of human reactions, especially if you're on look out for it. b2's huge windup is also very easy to spot since nothing else looks like that. On a good day I can block it a good 75-80% of the time and full punish. On a bad day it's still much higher than any other overhead of that nature.

 

[GAV]

i18 is in the realm of human reactions, especially if you're on look out for it. b2's huge windup is also very easy to spot since nothing else looks like that. On a good day I can block it a good 75-80% of the time and full punish. On a bad day it's still much higher than any other overhead of that nature.

A lot of tells before this move from non-technical players, but even when a player is technically sound - they tend to use these moves situationally allowing for simpler reads. They're not reactable, but if you're not blocking them at a high clip - then you're getting fooled.

 

[EntropicByDesign]

I'm terrible and if I see the b2 coming, if I catch the windup, I block it pretty much every time. Now, a good player will juke and move and get me so focused on other shit that I miss the initial tell, and I miss the window to react in time.

So, the whole 'b2 is not reactable' thing is FALSE, many many many people react to it, myself included and its not on a read. Sure, I block some that way, I just get a feeling it's coming and stand, but I myself block them all the time by crouching, seeing the windup and removimg my finger from the down button.

Again, its not possible to block every one or react to every b2, but it is possible and can be done with enough regularity go factor in to tactical discussion.

 

[ChaosTheory]

NjK is better vs Lao, Reptile, and some other fast advancing armour

Why do you say that?

 

[I GOT HANDS]

Why do you say that?

While F12 gives you enough frames to get a Clone out safely in 50/50 Shatter combo position against most characters, it doesn't against those two at the very least and possibly others. NjK does however, but at the cost of like 1-2% or something

 

[Rearawt]

I mean, I'm sure you personally can punish in 11 frame windows after blocking something right

That's entirely irrelevant. To hit that you have the entire startup, active and some recovery frames to tell when to hit your button. Way more than 16 frames

 

[Wigy]

B3 isn't, B2 has a very nice windup animation and 18 f start up. I mean, I'm sure you personally can punish in 11 frame windows after blocking something right, think about what 18 frames actually is, it's pretty significant

I'm not good enough to Consistently recognise and react to it in the course of a game (same story for ME with many similar 18f starters), however this is one I get about half the time. And that's just me. I fully believe someone who practiced harder or is naturally better than me could do it 99 times out of 100.

Maybe off a jip or obvious set play but thats just fuzzy guarding low then high.

Sub community needs to stop saying this.

 

[RM Ree]

Maybe off a jip or obvious set play but thats just fuzzy guarding low then high.

Sub community needs to stop saying this.

B33 will catch fuzzy guards, happens all the time. I fall victim to it myself playing other SZs.

The Sub community wasn't saying this. I personally thought ~19f was the baseline for reactable. Other players from a ton of communities, including Kotal's own, says b2 is reactable.

 

[Lanqu]

Its not reactable. You think about it like it is reactable but it is not. You just fuzzy guard it. Because sub has F33 or like that combo (where second hit is low) and it catches lots of time. But if you anticipate b2...then its a read.

 

[RM Ree]

Match up discussions always assume the max skill levels of both characters. Two players who can speak on reaction from a competitive stand point, a f0xy grandpa and Tom Brady, agree Sub Zero's b2 is reactable.

That being said, if you disagree, that's fine. But acknowledge that the issue might be with you as an individual rather than the move as a whole.

 

[Enexemander]

Its not reactable. You think about it like it is reactable but it is not. You just fuzzy guard it. Because sub has F33 or like that combo (where second hit is low) and it catches lots of time. But if you anticipate b2...then its a read.

It's difficult, but doable. It's 17 frames. 17/60=~.283 seconds. Reaction time to visual stimulus is hard to nail down, but .283 s is comfortably above it. Generally numbers like .18 s are thrown around, with the average around .25 s.

 

[Hellbringer]

If noticed when he depending on wich string sub ends clone with, u can walk abit forward if clone is close then ji3 to still be able to hit them when they duck.
If clone is farther away from its less of a problem but u have to use ji3 for hitting them when they duck.

 

[Hellbringer]

Im not sure if i actually punished the throw of the clone but either way its a good counter when they try to pressure after

 

[RM Ree]

Im not sure if i actually punished the throw of the clone but either way its a good counter when they try to pressure after

I suggested this and got absolutely shit on by the theory fighters in this thread. Good shit man.

 

[DT Tundra]

Weeeeeellll poop.

I'd ask a GM main on PC to lab some with me, but I picked up Kotal a few days ago, and picked up MKX , essentially, not long before that, so I'm still figuring out wtf I'm doing.

Go ahead and add me on steam and we can play around with the matchup. I play a pretty good Sun God frequently and I do think this matchup is pretty bad for Sun God, but he seems to be able to parry my clone and ice ball fairly consistantly and reacts to my pressure with his armored command grab in the corner, which if done right will not trade with clone. This includes B2, B33, and D4. So while it is a uphill battle, it is not like you should quit out if you see a GM Sub.