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Bloodgod and sungod are the worst vs GM sub; at high level it's just tear your hair out bad. A decent GM sub will inch you into the corner bit by bit with clone, and once you're there you're for sure not coming out easy, totem is too unsafe to use, you can't reversal and basically have to read when he's going to attack you and which mixup he's going to use, a wrong read means you'll eat a 50+% combo. Wargod isn't amazing in the matchup but never underestimate the power of the paddle. The threat of an EX overhead keeps the matchup somewhat honest, without it, a decent GM sub can just run circles round kotal.Try it for yourself man. Blood God leaves barely any room for GM to fuck up and Kotal himself can get away with a lot of crazy mistakes since a lot of times a full GM combo is going to be doing about 11% w/ huge meter gain for Kotal. When even the a basic 9 or 10 frame punish is going to net you 46% or better and GM is going to be doing 11% it's obviously not a bad matchup. Sub is only able to turtle behind the clone if he has the life lead which will be difficult for him to get easily outside of early pokes. He has a whole lot more to lose than you do when pressing buttons, and against GM that's huge. The knock is obviously he doesn't have an armored reversal to stop strings into clone. But him being down 50% on life is going to make that a null point since he's not going to want to be behind his clone in the first place. GM also has ways to bait this out and full combo the other two Kotal variations that can armor through so it's really not that tragic of a loss.
The reason why Sun God has trouble is because it's the most nightmarish Honda v. Guile sort of MU. Sun God will take normal damage, do less damage than BG on most hits that matter in the MU, and still has no way to fight the clone. With the recent patch it got slightly better since Sun God can buff his grab and convert it to meter if GM really does want to just build meter behind his clone and pick the best spots (please god don't even try to bring up sun ray). That's still not going to get GM to come at you since you having meter is rarely actually threatening to his gameplan. The Obsidian totem solves many of Sun God's issues because he can be more risky when dealing with the clone and GM's options. The armored command grab will rarely help in guaranteed ways and even when it hits at max charge, it's not a full combo by any stretch.
War God can deal with the clone somewhat alright but does the least damage of the three variations. Meanwhile GM can punish most sword attacks reliably. EX OSS is the best reversal, but agaip[l[loinst a clone in neutral it has problems. It's not a bad MU for WG, but I would easily pick another character that can actually handle the clone well instead of one that just sort-of can if you have a degree in geometry. But in a traditional sense, he is definitely the variation to go to against GM since he has the least trouble with GM's clone and that's what people are frustrated about when they talk about GM.
tl;dr Blood God is swag in a lot of MUs and y'all haters better recognize.
How many times has any GM hit that clone crush combo in an actual match? It is memetier. Pretty much Blood God 90% combo tier. And totem too unsafe? What the fuck world are you living in?Bloodgod and sungod are the worst vs GM sub; at high level it's just tear your hair out bad. A decent GM sub will inch you into the corner bit by bit with clone, and once you're there you're for sure not coming out easy, totem is too unsafe to use, you can't reversal and basically have to read when he's going to attack you and which mixup he's going to use, a wrong read means you'll eat a 50+% combo. Wargod isn't amazing in the matchup but never underestimate the power of the paddle. The threat of an EX overhead keeps the matchup somewhat honest, without it, a decent GM sub can just run circles round kotal.
It's not hitting them that's difficult. It's having the clone perfectly ready and actually getting that corner hit and confirming the hit for the shatter combo. Because if you fuck up any part of that you get nothing, and even less of nothing if BG has Obsidian down. It's pretty much equivalent to a Blood God damage totem + parry corner combo. Since you can frame trap after 114~totem and then parry it's not out of the realm of possibility. It's still not something to bank your hopes and dreams on. Especially when GM's "50/50" has a fairly reactable overhead in its equation.Just as an advocate, I hit the shatter combos fairly consistently. Online or offline, off the overhead or the low. They're not as difficult as you might think.
I often like to let players sit in a corner and react to what they might do, typically they'll jump and I'll respond with b2. The totem would likely come out fast enough vs. me personally.mkl, it's very difficult to get totem out safely under pressure sometimes, especially when in the corner defending whilst in a clone trap. Many a Kotal's favorite way to get totem out is on a blocked hit and that can't be done with a clone out.
I could be wrong but I thought d4 used to get through the clone easier. I spent a good deal this weekend grinding out Blood vs GM in the lab and I don't feel it's as effective as it once was. This wasn't nerfed a few patches ago was it?
I'm not saying do a totem while in the corner. Especially when Sub's mixup is reactable outside of run in throws. GM's can slide you (at least) on reaction for pretty much anything you do while you're in their zone. Just have patience and weather the storm while in the corner. This isn't even BG specific, it's all character specific.mkl, it's very difficult to get totem out safely under pressure sometimes, especially when in the corner defending whilst in a clone trap. Many a Kotal's favorite way to get totem out is on a blocked hit and that can't be done with a clone out.
I could be wrong but I thought d4 used to get through the clone easier. I spent a good deal this weekend grinding out Blood vs GM in the lab and I don't feel it's as effective as it once was. This wasn't nerfed a few patches ago was it?
A high/low that is reactable and if you block either option and then get hit by the next one might fuck up the proper timing of the clone shatter combo. It's not unviable but I rarely ever see it actually happen in a high level GM match against quality opponents.@mkl I'm not sure how familiar you are with Sub, so I'm not trying to condescend... but those shatter combos aren't as situational unviable as a lot of characters' max damage combos. For example, you end a combo with b3,3,d4 and boom you're a high/low away from half-life.
Even landing the shatter and dropping the follow-up is like 1/3 life by itself.
I definitely want to check out that stream. Are you Aok Ryan on twitch? I wish Tom Brady would weigh in and help out the KotalsI will see if @Tom Brady wants to play me tonight on his stream with my BG / SG and I will see how I do. I will come back with knowledge.
The subs I fight hit 50+% all the time online. Also I'm not talking about casul's like you seem to be doing.How many times has any GM hit that clone crush combo in an actual match? It is memetier. Pretty much Blood God 90% combo tier. And totem too unsafe? What the fuck world are you living in?
As for your analysis... there wasn't any analysis. Just some observation that GM will push you into the corner and you'll go willingly into GM's fairy tale 50% combo land. Yes, the corner isn't a good place for BG but it isn't good for damn near anyone without a teleport. Patience, at worst he has clone cooldown when the clone disappears.
Yea I know, he's been AFK for awhile. I watched his stream a few times though and he was beating up on Kotal actually lol and breaking down Kotals jip1 vs clone. He is actually very knowledgeable and I learned a lot even though he was being anti-Kotal that day.I think slide hits into clone too for a decent conversion.
And @Tom Brady doesnt typically weigh in and help the Sub Zero's anymore lol
I'm talking about actual known tournament level GM players offline. Not shitty online players in 2 second lag. I've played Brady's GM offline in a long set. Against Brady I had as much success with BG as WG. Even after Brady snidely remarked that Kotal is fucked in any variation against GM. It might have been a while ago, but it's still more applicable than online matches against randoms. And do you know how many times I was hit with a shatter combo in that FTwhatever? 0.The subs I fight hit 50+% all the time online. Also I'm not talking about casul's like you seem to be doing.
Well for starters, you can't react to Sub's overhead online. And that's half the battle. NJK combo enders still ends in clone and an opportunity for clone shatter combos. Feel free to show me where that combo is being regularly hit offline in tournaments and I will back down.Tom also ends combos in njk instead of f12, despite advantage, damage and viability.
Tom doesn't practice shatter combos, clearly. I watched him drop a few vs. a F/T player in tournament recently. If "shitty online players" can land these, why can't he, y'know?
Tom ends in b33d4 pretty often, which is basically half the battle. It's only a matter of time before he adjusts.
A real concrete 50/50 has both options that are unreactable. Like Ermac f4/b3. Against a Sub who is about to mix you up you duck block and then visually see b2 and block it standing. And if no clone is there to stop you that means Blood God is about to run a train on him to the tune of at least 46%.Reacting to the overhead is half of every battle, it's a 50/50... These combos start from lows as well.
F12 is objectively better than NJK as an ender.
The game is still young. These will show up in higher level play (if Tom comes back to MK to practice and stops dropping them). If you'd rather pretend they didn't exist than fear them, I think I can speak for he entire GM community when I say, that's perfectly ok.
It depends on how well he spaced the b2. If he's far forward in the clone then f1 will still work. If he isn't then you have to use b1 combos to be safe. Which is 46% vs. 34% with one bar each (just the combos I feel 100% comfortable to always hit).Well said. Can he not punish SZ b2 even if clone is there?
It's the fact that it's i17 and has a HUGE sweeping arm motion. i17 is really difficult to react to without a big tip-off, but I think b2 has big enough of a tip off. Still, it's i17 so it's still going to hit from time to time especially in random stray hits in neutral since i17 isn't THAT slow. But when you're expecting the 50/50 it's definitely one of the easier 50/50s to see. EDIT: If I remember right it hits on i18 so that gives you a bit more time to react.I can't decide on Sub's stuff being reactable. I think I've always had good reactions and so I tend to disagree when people argue that move-x is not possible to react to, etc.
But then again, I keep seeing guys say that move-x IS reactable, but it catches you anyway. Like Shinnok's b3 is one frame slower than Sub's b2. But plenty of mileage out of those two moves against solid, focused players.
I really don't know.
I think if King polished up his BG it'd be pretty good. Picking him against Lao is not terrible, especially since BG gets like a full bar of meter for being thrown when Obsidian is down lol. I still don't think that's the optimal variation against him even with that weird pseudo-glitch.LBSH, if King can take rounds off Kung Lao with Blood God, Grand Master shouldn't be a problem. So much so Sun God as he's got parry and projectile.