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Video/Tutorial - Summoner Beta Quan! Buffs and Normalizations!

Smokeshow

Smokeshow

Noob
After playing the beta a bunch more, mostly Warlock little bit of the other 2, some quick thoughts.

MB sky drop needs to be fixed. Every time I have tried it on wakeup it still gets stuffed. Random pressure strings stuff it, hit into command grab gets you, I really don't see how its been improved at all. Its unsafe on block and doesn't lead to anything it should work as a wakeup. It would even help Warlock for when you think people are going to neutral jump your scoop.

d1 should either be more plus on hit or less minus on block whichever way they want to go

Warlock definitely didn't need a damage nerf midscreen, I would say make scoop do more damage/less scaling in combos to compensate.

The nerfs by themselves are not bad, but a lot of characters got good buffs. Quan's offense has been toned down enough that he needs that armor option now.
 
Rude

Rude

You will serve me in The Netherrealm
Derptile said:
Can we have a petition to have Quan Chi not changed for the patch? I can't be the only one who doesn't wanna see him get nerfed.
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You mean the nerfs applied in the beta, or additional nerfs? I'm a little confused.
 
ienjoywinning

ienjoywinning

Noob
Im not sure if it was lag or not but it seems that ex trance now has traveling frames? I did it on a friend from full screen and it took a while untill the animation reached , it could have just been lag though.
 
Goat-City

Goat-City

Banned
Quan is definitely balanced for the most part now with the exception of maybe Warlock being a bit underpowered, but my problem is that I just don't like these design choices. I liked his glass canon design a lot, it made him unique. Sky drop was never intended to act as a wake up, its sole use should be as an anti air/air to air or for counter zoning. It just needed a tracking buff and an air priority buff, that's it. It looked better before the beta too.

And I liked the rune trap a lot because it was like a call back to MK9 Quan, again, something that makes him unique. Now you have to use the EX skull for chip aura combos, but the pushback on it makes it way too hard to consistently jail with the 14 string. On top of that, it's a lot harder to get his skull brutality and skeleton brutality now because you have to use EX trance to get the skull brutality in a combo and the EX rune is no longer practical to use in the chip spell.

For the trance hit advantage change I see what they were trying to do. By decreasing its hit advantage they solved multiple problems at once. They solved the hard to blockable vortex in Summoner which now costs a bar, they reduced Sorcerer's corner carry into armor spell setup in the corner, and they slightly reduced his damage. This isn't the best solution to these problems though. It makes playing him feel a lot slower and the animation just looks really bad now. Summoner's combos were really cool with the bat fireball too, but those are gone without using the EX trance, which you will not use very often because you need that meter for EX runes and breakers.

The MB rune change I really, really dislike. There was no problem with it before necessarily as long as they slightly nerfed him in other areas instead. The delayed MB rune with the gap was a really unnecessary change and it also looks and feels terrible with its animation and its weird timing. It also seems less plus on hit, making it harder to combo with b2 or trance now. Since they've buffed the meter drain spell as much as they did though, which I'm very happy about, they would need to nerf the rune trap to be less guaranteed to compensate. I think they should make the MB rune plus 14 again, but add a gap between the 14 string and rune so it can be armored through as long as your opponent has a bar. Trance's hit advantage should be reverted back to what it was, or at least make it much more than only 46 frames, like 65 or 70 but no less than that.

Basically he's just a lot less fun to me now and he could be normalized in a much more logical way.
 
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God Confirm

God Confirm

We're all from Earthrealm. If not, cool pic brah.
I'm kinda of the opinion that the only nerf he desperately needed was the block window on his pseudo unblockable. Does anyone feel he should have kept it?

Instead, thats the one thing he got to keep (although he can't vortex it anymore, it still shouldn't exist). Nobody was asking for nerfs to the rune and shit like this. That being said he's not gonna be underpowered in any variation other than Warlock come the new meta. Maybe toning down his B2, making it a mid and giving him a different (faster) OH would have been a good change, although not a hitconfirmable one like
@Goat-City suggested that would just be too much lol the character didn't need buffs.
 
Goat-City

Goat-City

Banned
God Confirm said:
I'm kinda of the opinion that the only nerf he desperately needed was the block window on his pseudo unblockable. Does anyone feel he should have kept it?

Instead, thats the one thing he got to keep (although he can't vortex it anymore, it still shouldn't exist). Nobody was asking for nerfs to the rune and shit like this. That being said he's not gonna be underpowered in any variation other than Warlock come the new meta. Maybe toning down his B2, making it a mid and giving him a different (faster) OH would have been a good change, although not a hitconfirmable one like
@Goat-City suggested that would just be too much lol the character didn't need buffs.
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It wouldn't be a buff to make the overhead option hit confirmable with f14 because both the overhead and low options into rune would be armorable by making f1 the new overhead, making it a guaranteed punish if they block either option into rune. As it is now, you can't armor through b2 into rune. That's why it should be hit confirmable, to compensate for that nerf. That being said, Summoner and Sorcerer both needed a damage nerf. Even without Summoner's hard to blockables he would still be S tier, and Sorcerer was S tier pre-beta even without hard to blockables. That's why they needed a significant damage nerf too.
 
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God Confirm

God Confirm

We're all from Earthrealm. If not, cool pic brah.
Goat-City said:
It wouldn't be a buff to make the overhead option hit confirmable with f14 because both the overhead and low options would be armorable by making f1 the new overhead, making it a guaranteed punish if they block either option into rune. As it is now, you can't armor through b2 into rune. That's why it should be hit confirmable, to compensate for that nerf. That being said, Summoner and Sorcerer both needed a damage nerf. Even without Summoner's hard to blockables he would still be S tier, and Sorcerer was S tier pre-beta even without hard to blockables. That's why they needed a significant damage nerf too.
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Needing meter to punish a gap =/= guaranteed punish. It also means Quan saves himself a bar nearly everytime B2 is blocked, lets be real most of us weren't throwing out B2 straight into trance very often. That was a really silly Quan suggestion to the core IMO, and it's unfortunate because a lot of your other stuff was really good. He didn't need something to compensate for the nerf, everyone else is getting nerfed too, and that would have been a pretty small one comparatively, espeically since he'd have a faster OH.
 
Goat-City

Goat-City

Banned
God Confirm said:
Needing meter to punish a gap =/= guaranteed punish. It also means Quan saves himself a bar nearly everytime B2 is blocked, lets be real most of us weren't throwing out B2 straight into trance very often. That was a massively stupid buff that is possibly the worst Quan suggestion I've ever seen, and it's unfortunate because a lot of your other stuff was really good.
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As long as they have a bar it's a guaranteed punish is what I meant. So if they have the bar and they block the mix up you can no longer use the EX rune to get a second guaranteed mix up like you can now. If they block the low it's a meterless punish, if they block the overhead you're minus 10 with push back, which will get you at the very least pressured which is very bad for Summoner and Sorcerer since they have no good armor, and for some characters they can punish that regardless. Being able to do b2 straight into trance is a big benefit. You can use that to steal games since the vortex is completely meterless and guaranteed. And even if you hit confirm it still costs a bar of meter. If you could hit confirm into trance that would be ridiculous, but I specifically said it should have its cancel advantage reduced so that would not be possible.
 
STB Shujinkydink

STB Shujinkydink

Burning down in flames for kicks
Smokeshow said:
After playing the beta a bunch more, mostly Warlock little bit of the other 2, some quick thoughts.

MB sky drop needs to be fixed. Every time I have tried it on wakeup it still gets stuffed. Random pressure strings stuff it, hit into command grab gets you, I really don't see how its been improved at all. Its unsafe on block and doesn't lead to anything it should work as a wakeup. It would even help Warlock for when you think people are going to neutral jump your scoop.

d1 should either be more plus on hit or less minus on block whichever way they want to go

Warlock definitely didn't need a damage nerf midscreen, I would say make scoop do more damage/less scaling in combos to compensate.

The nerfs by themselves are not bad, but a lot of characters got good buffs. Quan's offense has been toned down enough that he needs that armor option now.
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I noticed that warlock got that damage nerf too. My corner BnB that used to do 42% now does 39%
 
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Conflict_90

Conflict_90

Noob
Gustavness said:
You have been complaining about meter drain spell for a long time. NRS has done exactly what i recommended they should do, and they completely reinvented this variation.

Sorcerer Quan is about to become a different type of top tier character. Everyone thinking the world is ending is nuts. so to summarize

Normal Trance into Meter drain into combo still works (this always worked, was just a little harder to do)
trance while in the drain portal looks like it removes half a bar
drains on block as well for specials

so for one bar i should be able to drain almost 2 bars depending on the combo. who cares if there are gaps now, they will never be able to armor. so what, you cant chip someone out for 100% guaranteed. As if that wasnt going to be nerfed. combined with the 20% less chip on normals, all thats changed is that instead of armor and chip, you will be doing armor and drains. i prefer it to be honest. I've already posted videos in the past on the type of potential this has, and it is amplified now to an absurd amount. I will be labbing him this week to see what ridiculousness he can do now.
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Why waste your time explaining?
 
Rude

Rude

You will serve me in The Netherrealm
God Confirm said:
Brave man. Hope you're ready for the backlash
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An update: Sky Drop is a little better,but not exactly something people have to fear.

Mostly because of long it takes for him to come down and vulnerable he is
 
Rude

Rude

You will serve me in The Netherrealm
I can't speak for Summoner, but imo Sorcerer is better now than before. Except for losing corner switch cross over combos, I think the meter drain spell is a huge difference maker.
 
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