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Video/Tutorial - Summoner Beta Quan! Buffs and Normalizations!

Pumpkinholes

Pumpkinholes

steady mobbin
D
STB Shujinkydink said:
I'll add you. It would be an honor to play the best Quan chi player. I'll record our set and post it here after. When's a good time for you to play?[/QUOTE

Dink i never said i was the best u made that up from ur own dellision, but i can play tonite for sure im at work for 4 more hours then ill hit u up. I live in MT so like 5ish?
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Goat-City

Goat-City

Banned
Gustavness said:
@Goat-City

Man, talk about downplay. as an FYI, you can still do drain spell during a normal trance and continue the combo, you do not need to burn a bar on trance to do it. I verified that on the beta.

He is not garbage, he just has a different play style and one that is honestly more enjoyable. the trance nerf is really the only thing that sucks, and thats just due to the side switching.

Your overall change requests were silly, ESPECIALLY the portal switching, and would have resulted in broken mechanics. Currently, the amount of meter he can drain for 1 bar nets more than a 1-1 against the opponent, and thats midscreen. the amount you can take in the corner is borderline absurd
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Not downplay, just genuine concern. Don't be a dick Gustaveness. I didn't even say I was confident I was right, just that those were my thoughts so far without a training mode. And I never said I thought he was garbage either, I get the impression he's in the A- to A tier range. I would think I've earned some credibility considering all I've posted about the character and the game in general. Even if you thought some of my ideas were trash, as far as our discussions went you never stumped me in an argument, so I still disagree that they were and any argument I could make now to defend myself I've already given.

Anyways, I agree that he is more fun now despite the annoying trance nerf. If it's true that you can combo with the regular trance into meter drain spell consistently, as in 10 out of 10 tries, then that's good. What combos do you do? I'm thinking the best you could do after trance into a spell would be 21 into MB mid rune, since anything else would move Quan out of the spell so you wouldn't get the meter drain effect on the runes. If that's the case then you're still losing a lot of damage and they don't even end up entirely full screen.

So like I said, why not just do a regular combo into an armor setup for no meter? The armor setup can potentially lead to way more damage with armored EX trance or if they try to rush you down in the spell, not to mention all the meter you build if they respect your zoning for the full 10 seconds. Even in the corner, why use the MB rune to drain their meter in combos if you have to sacrifice the armor spell to do it? Without trapping them with the armor spell in the corner Quan's oki game is weak, so sacrificing it just to drain their meter seems like a bad idea, especially with arguably the worst wakeup in the game. I can't even remember if you've ever acknowledged this argument of mine and I've repeated it over and over again.
 
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Goat-City

Goat-City

Banned
Rude said:
The most you need for your projectiles to be effective is exactly one foot in the meter drain spell. Not only that, but if they're running at you to try and hit you out of the circle, you have plenty of options.

You could try a cross up, NJP, or jump back if you're feeling especially ballsy. Depending on the character you could walk back from the circle and whiff punish, use mid runes to send them back full screen, etc.

Meter Drain spell definitely complements his projectile game. As far as using it in combos to yes, it is a lot of meter to spend to cast the spell and continue with MB Rune. Thankfully, you don't have to do that. You could cast the spell during Trance and attempt a 50/50. Canceling into MB Rune in this situation will guarantee that you'll take a least some of their bar in the process and if you fully delay MB Rune, you get the +14 so you can try the 50/50 again.

It's different from how Sorcerer played before, but it's not THAT different.
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Yeah I already know all this, but it doesn't change anything I said. The meter drain spell does help in the neutral obviously, but the benefit comes more from the fear of the spell rather than the spell itself since it's a very small space to confine yourself to and Quan's zoning is not good enough on its own that he can stand in place for very long at all. Also there's the fact that if you move forward and your opponent moves backwards, you completely lose the spell for its duration since it goes off screen, so there's much less threat to your rushdown and you have no armor spell to make standing in place for long periods viable. That's one of the reasons why I think you should be able to cancel the spells by the way, so if it goes off screen you can get a different one out without having to wait.

So I still don't see why I should use the meter drain spell after knockdowns when I can use the armor spell which can open up a ridiculous amount of damage and meter gain without having to spend any like you do with the meter spell. I do use it after knockdowns often, but it's more as a personal choice than an obvious one because I could just as easily use the armor spell instead and get as good of a reward or better. The best thing about it is that you can use it in the neutral easily and I love that, but I don't think that's enough to make up for all the nerfs he took.
 
colby4898

colby4898

Special Forces Sonya Up-player
The armour spell change is really bad for sorcerer I think. What made his zoning so great was being able to take hit leave the spell, re-enter and get thearmour back. Without if he gets hit he has to wait 10 seconds before being abe to activate armour spell again. This along with the trance change and the recovery extension is a huge unnecessary nerf to sorcerer. :(
 
Gustavness

Gustavness

The Tech Whisperer
Goat-City said:
Even in the corner, why use the MB rune to drain their meter in combos if you have to sacrifice the armor spell to do it? Without trapping them with the armor spell in the corner Quan's oki game is weak, so sacrificing it just to drain their meter seems like a bad idea, especially with arguably the worst wakeup in the game. I can't even remember if you've ever acknowledged this argument of mine and I've repeated it over and over again.
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What do your opponents use meter for? Armoring through gaps, extending combos, and wakeup. With almost no effort, you can keep an opponent under a bar of meter almost every single round. Quite easily i might add, and this is up close mid combo as well as with zoning

Sacrificing 5-10% damage to remove all of your opponents options and stripping their damage down by typically 35% far outweighs anything you can argue. Because they have no meter, it doesnt matter if you have an armor spell out or not. you can spam the hell out of F212 and all of its extensions and mixups anywhere on the screen, and on knockdown, because there is absolutely nothing they can do about it. In fact, it is still possible to do very close to a death trap with the chip portal using MB rune, same as always. (Although, i wont be able to optimize everything until i can get XL. Impossible to test things in the damn beta)
 
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Goat-City

Goat-City

Banned
colby4898 said:
The armour spell change is really bad for sorcerer I think. What made his zoning so great was being able to take hit leave the spell, re-enter and get thearmour back. Without if he gets hit he has to wait 10 seconds before being abe to activate armour spell again. This along with the trance change and the recovery extension is a huge unnecessary nerf to sorcerer. :(
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I think they said on stream that armor regenerates a bit faster now to compensate. I don't mind this at all, I think it's fine. And you never had to wait 10 seconds to get it back, it regenerated after 5 seconds or so I believe.
 
Rude

Rude

You will serve me in The Netherrealm
Goat-City said:
I think they said on stream that armor regenerates a bit faster now to compensate. I don't mind this at all, I think it's fine. And you never had to wait 10 seconds to get it back, it regenerated after 5 seconds or so I believe.
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6 seconds.
 
colby4898

colby4898

Special Forces Sonya Up-player
Goat-City said:
I think they said on stream that armor regenerates a bit faster now to compensate. I don't mind this at all, I think it's fine. And you never had to wait 10 seconds to get it back, it regenerated after 5 seconds or so I believe.
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I timed it and it was 10 seconds but i'll check it again.
 
colby4898

colby4898

Special Forces Sonya Up-player
Goat-City said:
I'm not talking about the spell going away. After you take a hit you lose the hit of armor for 6 seconds, not the spell, then you get it back before the spell goes away.
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Oh ok. But my point is that nrs are taking away that. You only get one hit of armour during the 10 seconds it's out. It won't come back after 6 seconds or if you leave and reenter the spell.
I'm pretty sure that's what they said unless I miss understood.
 
Rude

Rude

You will serve me in The Netherrealm
colby4898 said:
Oh ok. But my point is that nrs are taking away that. You only get one hit of armour during the 10 seconds it's out. It won't come back after 6 seconds or if you leave and reenter the spell.
I'm pretty sure that's what they said unless I miss understood.
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No, they said the time between armor hits was reduced. So if you get hit, there will still be home enough to get another back.
 
Pumpkinholes

Pumpkinholes

steady mobbin
Dink when ever u wanna go im ready dude. Ill forfeit summoner cause ill admt urs is better, so wull set out warlock and sorcer. Hmu
 
Goat-City

Goat-City

Banned
Gustavness said:
What do your opponents use meter for? Armoring through gaps, extending combos, and wakeup. With almost no effort, you can keep an opponent under a bar of meter almost every single round. Quite easily i might add, and this is up close mid combo as well as with zoning

Sacrificing 5-10% damage to remove all of your opponents options and stripping their damage down by typically 35% far outweighs anything you can argue. Because they have no meter, it doesnt matter if you have an armor spell out or not. you can spam the hell out of F212 and all of its extensions and mixups anywhere on the screen, and on knockdown, because there is absolutely nothing they can do about it. In fact, it is still possible to do very close to a death trap with the chip portal using MB rune, same as always. (Although, i wont be able to optimize everything until i can get XL. Impossible to test things in the damn beta)
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I'm really not understanding your point. So if you have your opponent in the corner you think it's a significantly better idea to either spend 1 bar of meter for less damage than you can get meterless, no armor spell setup, and to drain a bar of their own meter, so it's basically a trade off, or to spend 2 bars of meter to drain 1 of theirs, (assuming that's the amount) 10% more damage, and still no armor setup?

Why not just save your meter for MB runes and set up with the armor spell? If they break they just threw away 2 bars of meter anyways and they're at a disadvantage because they just lost all their stamina too. My point is not that the meter drain spell sucks, it's that there's nothing about it from what I can tell that's definitively better than the armor spell in any circumstance, which means it's not much of a buff because the armor spell could already accomplish everything the meter spell can now except for a certain few match ups.

You can use it in the neutral but it's not that great in the neutral because you have to stand in it and it removes your ability to use armor for 10 seconds. If my opponent is in the corner with no meter and I have 1 bar, what do I have as corner pressure without armor? F212 is slow and minus 3 on block, there won't be any spamming of that string. The low and overhead are unsafe without meter. If my opponent lands a poke into a 50/50 or a grab then I'll be in the corner with no wake up and no meter, and they almost certainly have better oki than me.

So I'm still wondering why it's ever a significantly better idea to use the meter drain spell in combos instead of just setting up with the armor spell for no meter. Again, the only objectively better thing it does than the armor spell is its speed. That's my point for why the meter drain buff has not helped him much. I think he's dropped almost as much in tier as Warlock has.
 
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