Are Nrs Games The Scrubbiest Games (easiest to learn) in the Fgc?

[Slips]

I assumed you were trying to bring up how divisive people could be in preferance in brand colas - how either you're pepsi or cola guy. I didn't look up any study from 40 years ago.

Read up and there's a completely valid explaination why Pepsi did well in taste tests over Coke despite Coke overtaking them in sales to this very day. Funnily enough, much like nrs games, Pepsi is good - at first. It's just sweeter than Coke. Everyone can enjoy a sip of Pepsi until your halfway through a bottle and then it becomes bland like all sweet things. People will finish the bottle of Coke though. Coke has much more lasting power both in style and quality proven by Pepsi still losing. So of course in a taste test, a few sips, Pepsi could win. In the long run? Not a chance.

I used to work at a resturant that surprisingly didn't serve Coke. When taking drink orders, you know how many times I had to respond to with "I'm sorry, is Pepsi ok?" You ever hear anyone order a Jack and Pepsi? "The Pepsi Challenge" was a good marketing gimmick, something nrs are experts at themselves, but Pepsi was never truly better. Coke has always been the fundamentally better product and most people do like better. The numbers don't lie.

You're right, I can't think of a better metaphor for SF and NRS games than that, thanks.

At least you actually read up on it, which I'll give you credit for. I don't hate someone for preferring Coke over Pepsi. But you referred NRS as RC Cola in your post before, which is like C list soda. It's more disrespected than it deserves to be. And that was my point.

So whether you prefer Coke or Pepsi, it's still getting a worst rep than it's deserved. RC Cola my ass.

 

[Apologia X]

Coke > Pepsi

 

[d3v]

Can you please tell me what the first two are referring to? I know what hitstun is; I don't know how you mean on combos: do you mean when Johnny ends the BnB in a nut punch, so it's kind of a reset, or when pressure characters use their "projectile cancels" inside of BnBs, or something else? And I have no idea about the second point. And in the case of the third part (stance specific combos): I only know one with Sub-Zero; what other character has them? And if you can list a few, all the better. I know I'm asking for a lot of information; anything you can provide will be welcome.

The thing with NRS's combo system is that, unlike every other fighting game on the planet, it's not actually based on hitstun. You can't really hit a poke on somebody, and have enough advantage to combo in a second attack. Rather, last I checked, combos ended when the attacking player was in neutral and the player being attacked wasn't either being juggled, or in some capture state. First, this limit the combo system, since you're limited to what the devs allow you to cancel into. Second, it affects how mid range poking footsies are played, or rather almost entirely eliminates them since you can't really have good pokes you can fish with and then convert into damage. Hence, as SF veteran @funkdoc pointed out in his thread, zoning in NRS games tends to revolve around full screen projectiles, with not enough mid screen, non-projectile zoning.

What stance specific stuff is like all over the place to the point where it's a problem? Another thing I don't get is why MK is supposed to drab up for the sake of other players. I understand your point was why it will never be "popular," but still, it's odd. Is it a bad thing that the game is unique like that? What harm is it causing beyond making its own niche? Shouldn't that kind of stuff be celebrated? Fuudo for thought.

I don't get how you can say it would "drab up" the game. 2D hit detection would just make the game feel tighter since stuff wouldn't suddenly drop just because stances didn't match. Meanwhile, a more traditional, hitstun based combo system would arguably make for more a more interesting and open combo system. More importantly, it would allow for a more engaging mid range neutral game.

Besides. Do you really want ermac to be able to go d3, d3, d3, f4 and have that combo? It'd be ridiculous if characters could link like sf characters.

Let's not equate SFIV to what all link based games do since that game in an anomaly. In most other SFs (including SFV) light chained into themselves don't lead to much. At most, you get to confirm into a special and knockdown. A better example would be something like 3rd Strike, where there is a heavy emphasis on single hit confirms, but you get some interesting juggles once characters start using their meter options.

That said, there's nothing wrong with long combos out of lights in games other than SF. Look at anime games and Marvel.

 

[KingHippo]

I don't get how you can say it would "drab up" the game. 2D hit detection would just make the game feel tighter since stuff wouldn't suddenly drop just because stances didn't match. Meanwhile, a more traditional, hitstun based combo system would arguably make for more a more interesting and open combo system. More importantly, it would allow for a more engaging mid range neutral game.

Who is having dropped combos due to stances? That literally seems like a made-up issue. The hitboxes aren't squares, but they make sense and connect in juggles like they should; the people who do play the game rarely seem to complain about the hitboxes working (Some would say they're too big on a few moves, but connecting the moves in combos never seems to be an issue). Also, "traditional" would imply that this game is a 2D fighter at heart, which it is not. I'm not sure how you can look at the frame data, see how every combo is pretty much juggles, and the idea of using an armor ("crush") type move to break up counter-hit setups isn't like a 3D game. In fact, I'm sure you could dig up quotes from Ed Boon where he would state how Tekken influenced the game is.

I think that's where my problem lies, ultimately. People who do not play the game and just see it skin deep want to shape it to be like every other 2D fighter when part of the appeal is that it's not like every other fighter and is probably the closest thing to a 2D/3D hybrid. Why take away that uniqueness from it just so it can play like everything else? Again, I know your overall point was that these changes would probably make the game more popular to a wider audience and that you never said it had to play like other games, so I'm not trying to attack you or put words in your mouth, I'm just asking questions.

 

[16 Bit]

mid range footsies with pokes is still important because of the advantage you get on hit and the regulation of the other footsies tools due to speed, range and low profiling. definetly not eliminated or without good reward

 

[16 Bit]

I made hay with a d+1. Get that talking point outta here

 

[juicepouch]

if you want street fighter play street fighter. Variety is the spice of life

 

[Big Pampering]

Cd jr is a good fg player but if there is one thing he doesnt understand or doesnt want to learn its matchups.

 

[WITNESS]

Who is having dropped combos due to stances? That literally seems like a made-up issue. The hitboxes aren't squares, but they make sense and connect in juggles like they should; the people who do play the game rarely seem to complain about the hitboxes working (Some would say they're too big on a few moves, but connecting the moves in combos never seems to be an issue). Also, "traditional" would imply that this game is a 2D fighter at heart, which it is not. I'm not sure how you can look at the frame data, see how every combo is pretty much juggles, and the idea of using an armor ("crush") type move to break up counter-hit setups isn't like a 3D game. In fact, I'm sure you could dig up quotes from Ed Boon where he would state how Tekken influenced the game is.

I think that's where my problem lies, ultimately. People who do not play the game and just see it skin deep want to shape it to be like every other 2D fighter when part of the appeal is that it's not like every other fighter and is probably the closest thing to a 2D/3D hybrid. Why take away that uniqueness from it just so it can play like everything else? Again, I know your overall point was that these changes would probably make the game more popular to a wider audience and that you never said it had to play like other games, so I'm not trying to attack you or put words in your mouth, I'm just asking questions.

If they use a 2d hit box in a 2d fighting game we wouldn't have hit box issues

 

[d3v]

Who is having dropped combos due to stances? That literally seems like a made-up issue. The hitboxes aren't squares, but they make sense and connect in juggles like they should; the people who do play the game rarely seem to complain about the hitboxes working (Some would say they're too big on a few moves, but connecting the moves in combos never seems to be an issue). Also, "traditional" would imply that this game is a 2D fighter at heart, which it is not. I'm not sure how you can look at the frame data, see how every combo is pretty much juggles, and the idea of using an armor ("crush") type move to break up counter-hit setups isn't like a 3D game. In fact, I'm sure you could dig up quotes from Ed Boon where he would state how Tekken influenced the game is.

I think that's where my problem lies, ultimately. People who do not play the game and just see it skin deep want to shape it to be like every other 2D fighter when part of the appeal is that it's not like every other fighter and is probably the closest thing to a 2D/3D hybrid. Why take away that uniqueness from it just so it can play like everything else? Again, I know your overall point was that these changes would probably make the game more popular to a wider audience and that you never said it had to play like other games, so I'm not trying to attack you or put words in your mouth, I'm just asking questions.

Except actual 3D fighters like Virtua Fighter, Tekken, and DOA also use hitstun based combo systems. Juggles alone doesn't mean a game doesn't work on hitsun, and Tekken actually has grounded combos that work because of it. All doing it like NRS does is make the combo system feel canned and limited.

 

[NaCl man]

It is a different game to all the other fighters mentioned. Why do we as a community keep comparing all these games as far as skill goes. We should be encouraging people to play all types of games involved in the fgc insted of saying oh this one is harder or this one takes more skill.weather it be nrs, capcom, namco, neo geo or whatever. We should just keep playing and enjoying the compitition. They all take skill and have different mechanics. I have been playing fighting games since street fighter 2 came out and play all different fighting games and love them all for different reasons. As i said before just because there are 2 people on the screen fighting does not mean you can compare these said games. MKX is a great game.

 

[Braindead]

I would body every single one of you in Last Bronx

 

[NaCl man]

I used to go hard on fatal encounter aka super fighter lol

 

[Belial]

NRS games are not really "easy" execution-wise. Combos are not hard to do, yes, but frame-links required for a lot of punishments or frametraps are way more stupid (harder than in earlier tekken games, and those were like... absurdly hard already) than most JPN-fighters. And yes, they are indeed considered "scrubby" or newbie-friendly is a better term, maybe?

NRS games are considered "scrubby" by outsiders(JPN-fighting players) b/c of its (comparatively) shallow gameplay. Game mechanics are really simple and character movesets are poor, so there is not much to learn. You can see how MK top players effortlessly use 3+ characters at tournaments and jump from character to character throughout patches, where in your average JPN-fighter using more than one will be detrimental to your gameplay, as even one character is very hard to master.

Once again it is not due to exectuion difficulty, but due to sheer amount of options other fighters offer, so when you have to learn MU, for example, you have to learn much more, than in MK. Soul Calibur 5, for example, has one of the simpliest execution in all fighters, yet due to how complicated game mechanics are (defensive options count in dozens, while movelists consists of 50+ (actually useful) moves) MU charts are fiercly argued even 3 years post-release.

In a sort this is good for MK, b/c of patching policy. If people do not like how their char was nerfed, they can switch. Where in JPN-fighters you're probably screwed and have to start over. Nvm those have to wait YEARS for patches and then pay extra 20$ to get it, though I must also note, that exactly b/c the games are so deep, it also takes years to figure out MU right

And VERY IMPORTANT part for all feeling MK is unrightfully accused. How hard the game is at pro level is largely effected by community size. SFIV though having a farily simple mechanics compared to many other JPN-fighters is by far the hardest to compete. Same holds true for MK. The game might be not that hard to learn, but has a lot of people playing, so becoming top player in it is probably harder and takes more work/effort than most more sophisticated JPN-fighters

So to sum it up
JPN-fighters: Deep, complicated mechanics, very hard to learn, have to wait years for balance fixes
NRS-fighters: Simple mechanics, easy to get in, frequent patches ensure everybody is happy (not at the same time though)

 

[coolwhip]

It's not a general fighting game thread that compares NRS games to other games without d3v being a condescending know it all while being misinformed about NRS games and the NRS scene.

 

[coolwhip]

Also, please with the "CD Jr is a very smart player" argument. There's no doubt he's smart and he's a great fighting game player. But did it occur to anyone that maybe he has certain strengths and certain weaknesses and that he's biased towards games that play into his strengths? I refuse to think "oh he's a fighting game vet and he's smart = he's right about MKX/Injustice." You know who's even smarter? Guys like DJT and Sonic Fox who actually understood Injustice and MKX and how their meta operates and were able to have results accordingly, instead of blaming the games for their failure.

 

[Deleted member 9158]

In terms of execution, Smash would be easily the easiest, but there is more to fighting games than doing a command and pressing a button.

In general the games are just different, it's hard to measure, since each game will bring different elements to the table.

So, no, i don't consider MK to be the "scrubiest", nor do i believe there is one, at least among modern fighting games.

Op asked for scrubbiest fighting game, please read more carefully

 

[Doctor Rektangle]

For those arguing about Street Fighter Vs. Mortal Kombat. Remember two things

1.) Street Fighter although having so many mechanic changes between games and versions one thing remained. THIS. IS. STREET FIGHTER. It was popular and always stayed true to its form/roots. I can be put into a capsule, woken 50 years from now and see a trailer for SFXII and even if it's all new characters I'll still be like. "Brah that's Street fighter." With MK, they've been 2d, 3d, 2.5d. No two MK games play alike. Which is NOT A BAD THING. Hold your horses.

Usually if you like one Street Fighter you'll like them all. We know this isn't the same with MK. Besides we all know the 3d years are considered by most to be "Lol what is this garbage yo!" That and lbsh MK is known for its gore than it is its mechanics.

2.) Perception is reality and the victorious write history. Capcom has had bigger fighting game community based success therefore their community drives the narrative. That and they have a bigger international following. Etc. Etc.

At the end of the day it's personal preference.

 

[KingHippo]

Except actual 3D fighters like Virtua Fighter, Tekken, and DOA also use hitstun based combo systems. Juggles alone doesn't mean a game doesn't work on hitsun, and Tekken actually has grounded combos that work because of it. All doing it like NRS does is make the combo system feel canned and limited.

You're right, and I should have worded it at "mostly" juggled, my mistake. However, I also think MKX, with its run cancel characters and moves like Lao's hat circle, Sub Zero's EN Clone stuff, and Relentless/Unstoppable Jason f2, there are more moves than ever that lead to link style combos based on the limited amount of time there is to connect during hitstun. Off single hit pokes it's still just limited to poking, but like 16 Bit said, there's no denying the importance of pokes in the current meta.

I don't think it's a big surprise that some of the most successful players in these games past and present (PL, SonicFox, 16 Bit, KDZ in early IGAU, etc.) are those with primarily 3D fighting game backgrounds. Fuudo for thought.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Game mechanics are really simple and character movesets are poor, so there is not much to learn. You can see how MK top players effortlessly use 3+ characters at tournaments and jump from character to character throughout patches, where in your average JPN-fighter using more than one will be detrimental to your gameplay, as even one character is very hard to master.

The most popular Japanese fighting game in the community, SF4, has players that regularly go to alternate characters when the matchup calls for it. Almost 95% of the Elena players are just using her as a 2nd or 3rd character. We've also seen alt. Evil Ryus, Sagats, Rose's, Chun Li's, Decapres and a number of other characters have big influences on high profile matches in majors.

The #1 ranked Ultra player in the world plays 3-4 characters. Aside from him, Xian, Infiltration, and various other players who rank among the most successful and respected of all time all play multiple characters.

The 2013 Tekken Tag 2 EVO champion played 3 completely different teams (6 characters).

I'm not sure where this talking point came from..

 

[Skellington]

I prefer Pepsi over Coca-Cola

I am the one.

 

[Arkane Slim]

I just wish NRS would stop making their DLC so top tier. It's like they want to have the best characters for sale to make more money....... Wait a minute!!!!!!

 

[rev0lver]

NRS games are considered "scrubby" by outsiders(JPN-fighting players) b/c of its (comparatively) shallow gameplay. Game mechanics are really simple and character movesets are poor, so there is not much to learn. You can see how MK top players effortlessly use 3+ characters at tournaments and jump from character to character throughout patches, where in your average JPN-fighter using more than one will be detrimental to your gameplay, as even one character is very hard to master.

That's not true at all lol. I'd actually say the majority of top SF players, asian and american, use multiple characters. Even people known as "character specialists" like snake eyez use multiple characters. How many pocket Elenas do you see out there right now?

We're still relatively early in the meta too right now, which is why you see so much switching going on. All that situational character knowledge that you get by playing one character still applies to MK. MKX is different, for now, partially because it's early, but if you compare the MK9 and Injustice top 20's with the USF4 one, the NRS players probably have more (or at least the same number of) one-character specialists than they do.

 

[Rocket]

well this has went far hasn't it, from talking about a gory fighting game in comparison to a fighting game for fairies, to coke in comparison to pepsi.

 

[PND_Ketchup]

Nah, stop deflecting. Saying "b-but what about those games!" doesn't make your game any better. Nobody actually cares about nrs games in the majority of the fgc because it's known for shitty netcode, poor game design, and a toxic community. I don't know how you can watch a game of SFV with counter hit setups and throw baits, real anti-airs then look at mkx where counter hit setups are mash armor into 30% after negative frames and frametraps consist of jailing your opponent into 50/50s for close to half their life - then come with the conclusion of "What's the difference?" Give me a break.

Idk what's happening over there at Marvel but even with their touch of death combos and bad netcode it's still attracts more players than nrs games pull which speaks volumes

If you enjoy nrs games, that's fine. Good for you. When you're insecurity based on how the community feels toward your game leads you to say things like it's "all the same" well, get some perspective. I don't hate nrs games either, I'm just not delusional. You're the guy who thinks it's impossible for people to dislike games you like... otherwise they're sheep. Keep wondering why nrs community gets a bad rap though.

And here we have somebody who has no idea what they're talking about, ladies and gentlemen!

Majors for MKX (Which still frequently pull hundreds of entrants due to frequent 10k pot bonuses) very often gross just as much or more than marvel. Marvel only gets insane numbers at EVO, as it's pretty much an EVO game.

ESL in NA had 250 entrants two weeks ago and 350 last week for online tournaments alone. Numbers are consistent and in some ways on the rise as the weeks go by because of the amount of support this game is receiving at a high level.

Don't you even dare to try and make out like the NRS has an overly toxic community when other games have much bigger issues with toxic/nasty people. And no, I'm not deflecting anything. It's pretty obvious that we don't have players getting arrested for getting into fights at shows or having twitter beefs that encourage bullying and all kinds of other nonsense. Marvel has probably the worst online representation I have ever seen.

Slips clearly isn't saying that NRS games are fine, he's trying to explain to you that NRS games aren't broken beyond belief as someone with many years of experience with many games. He's trying to say that every Fighting Game out there has broken stuff that will put players off the game and that MKX is no exception.

SF4 - The year of the vortex and unblockables see players "coming out of the woodwork" and beating world class players with unblockables. Doesn't really happen anymore since Ultra removed most of them.

Marvel - Get touched once and lose all of your life in a guaranteed combo. Then roll the dice at a six way safe mixup and hope you guess right, because if you don't you die again. Also, Zero loops.

KI - EVO 2013 was literally won with 80% unbreakable Sadira loops.

The list goes on and on.

You seem like just another guy that doesn't really play MKX and has come onto this topic just to do your best to slam the game for reasons you don't understand and try and dispute with players that have been playing these games for years.

You can be as smug as you like, but you no way near know as much as you think you do about NRS titles.