Discussion Why Alien Should Be Banned.

[CrimsonShadow]

I don't understand your confusion.

I was obviously replying to the post I quoted - another poster was getting upset at the "toxic NRS community" for calling for an Alien ban.

I was replying that he should not blame the ridiculousness of the alien outcry on the community, as its - in my opinion - a function of NRS' approach to balancing the game.

The call for ban wasn't due to balancing issues -- it's due to wonky engine and hitbox caveats, which as stated apply to multiple characters. That's why I don't get this point, as it doesn't relate to an 'approach to balancing' Alien.

 

[Wetdoba]

MKX has dirt, but dealing with that dirt takes skill.

SFV is only the meta. That part of it isn't simple. Just the rest of it is. There's no hidden tech. There's no execution barriers. Blocking and movement also takes no practice.

MKX is a much deeper game. SFV has a deep meta, but it lacks in the other aspects.

I made this one short so maybe you would read it this time.

I read it I just disagree with most of it

 

[Zoidberg747]

It's not ludicrous at all. What's ludicrous is non-Alien players thinking that it's practical to constantly mix people up with F4 and B3 in the neutral. Despite their range they are still not fast moves. People will whiff punish you with a jump in, hit you before your move hits them with an 11 frame move, etc. It's more practical to work your way in and mix people up in the pocket.

The blockstun point with EX tail flip is just user error. We're talking about a 200k qualifier.

I can't even take this discussion seriously. You literally have to practice the punish for 5 minutes to get it down. I also play Kotal Khan, and i'm tired of people saying that his swords aren't punishable. When I play good players they do punish everything. If you haven't done your homework, that's on you. Anyone who plays these characters, will be punished when competing for a spot at the ESL finals.

Edit: Also, i'm sorry that my DOWN FOUR, that whiffs up close and is -12, and sometimes guarantees nothing besides another D4 or snag, is hard to full combo punish. We're talking about a poke, man. You block it, you get pressure. I'm going for 3% and possible pressure. Please man.

Please give me Cage's(Cassie and Johnny), Kung Lao's, Kung Jin's, Shinnok's, Kotal's, Predator's, D'vorah's, Jax's, Goro's, Sonya's. I'd much rather have a D4 that's faster and always guarantees something. Alien's D4 is not a problem.

I'd also like to note that I know that Goro's and Predator's D4 do not always guarantee pressure, but on Alien they would. I'm just talking about the D4s specifically.

I never said anything about F4. Im not talking about mixing up in the neutral, im saying if you throw out B3 from max range almost no one can punish you meaning she can check people from fullscreen.

I play with some of the best kotals in the country, have since release. His low sword is not consistently punishable. The kotal players admit it and you can check any tournament footage of him and see for yourself. Same with Aliens overhead flip(but it isnt as bad as low sword blockstun, ill give you that).

Again, did I say D4 needs to be able to be punished? No, Im saying its a good safe footsie tool. I also never said it guarantees anything. P.S. Half of those D4s you mentioned dont always guarantee anything.

The funny part is I originally came in to this thread to say banning Alien would be a stupid idea. Im only trying to mitigate some of your insane downplay because it isnt helping the cause lol.

 

[Tweedy]

I never said anything about F4. Im not talking about mixing up in the neutral, im saying if you throw out B3 from max range almost no one can punish you meaning she can check people from fullscreen.

I play with some of the best kotals in the country, have since release. His low sword is not consistently punishable. The kotal players admit it and you can check any tournament footage of him and see for yourself. Same with Aliens overhead flip(but it isnt as bad as low sword blockstun, ill give you that).

Again, did I say D4 needs to be able to be punished? No, Im saying its a good safe footsie tool. I also never said it guarantees anything. P.S. Half of those D4s you mentioned dont always guarantee anything.

The funny part is I originally came in to this thread to say banning Alien would be a stupid idea. Im only trying to mitigate some of your insane downplay because it isnt helping the cause lol.

How am I downplaying? I said the character is top 5 and possibly #1.

You're just lying about Kotal's low sword not being punishable. I'd love for you to present more than a couple characters to me that can't punish it.

Yes, half of those D4s do guarantee stuff. All of them do besides Goro's and Predator's. Between that and your comments on Kotal, you have no credibility. I don't care how many times you throw out vague statements like "I play with X player", or "you're downplaying".

I own these people so bad in factual arguments, that they mix my opinion of a specific tool, with an opinion of Alien being bad. I'm not downplaying, I think Alien is arguably the best character. If skewing what i'm saying is all that you got, then just chill. Your ego will be fine.

 

[Tweedy]

Cassie's D4 guarantees B1, B2 and D+F1(at certain ranges), Kotal's D4 guarantees F1 and B1, D'vorah's D4 guarantees F1, Johnny's guarantees F3, Kung Jin's guarantees B1 and B2, Shinnok's guarantees F4, Lao's guarantees F2.

That's more than half, Zoidberg.

And look I've played Kotal for a bit. You can't present many characters to me that can't punish both the low and overhead sword. I'm not even gonna argue about this. Present a real argument. Don't just say "I play this guy so I know", just tell me what characters can't.

 

[SHAOLIN]

@Tweedy @Zoidberg747

Hope this help. . .

http://testyourmight.com/threads/list-of-the-entire-casts-overhead-low-sword-punishes.53700/

 

[Tweedy]

@Tweedy @Zoidberg747

Hope this help. . .

http://testyourmight.com/threads/list-of-the-entire-casts-overhead-low-sword-punishes.53700/

Dude stop. Zoidberg plays the top Kotal's in the country, so that's not true.

 

[SHAOLIN]

Dude stop. Zoidberg plays the top Kotal's in the country, so that's not true.

Huh?

 

[MK FIGHTER]

If you're hoping to ban Alien, then you might as well ban Sonya, Mileena, Cyber Sub-Zero and Kung Lao as well while your add it. The moment a character comes along that has an answer to the top tier brokenness of some characters, those who main those characters cry for a nerf or ultimately a ban. lol

 

[Nedyrc]

If you're hoping to ban Alien, then you might as well ban Sonya, Mileena, Cyber Sub-Zero and Kung Lao as well while your add it. The moment a character comes along that has an answer to the top tier brokenness of some characters, those who main those characters cry for a nerf or ultimately a ban. lol

what

 

[Tweedy]

Did i just read that Aliens B3 and F4 aren't fast moves and you can't do them in the nuetral to mix people up? HUHHHH LOL both are under 19 frames. low and overhead starters one with 1/3 screen range and the other half screen range. Bruh come on ..

Throw those out vs any of the top characters. Have fun getting smacked by 9-13 frame advancing moves.

 

[MK FIGHTER]

what

Says the guy with the Cage profile pic. lol

 

[biggabarr]

Huh?

The fact that you made mention of Kung Lao , means you don't know what you are saying, LMAO....

 

[GAV]

I read it I just disagree with most of it

No, you didn't. You said I said SFV's meta was simple. What I said was that the meta of SFV was complex, but everything else about it - like tech and execution - were so simple they are overtly irrelevant. MKX has "secrets" that make it more compelling to me, like back in the old arcade days - when not everybody knew everything about every game.

I read easily, so put a wall of text in front of me and I run right through it. Most people just scan and move on, so putting up a wall of text that gets misread is as much my fault as any reader's.

 

[GAV]

If you're hoping to ban Alien, then you might as well ban Sonya, Mileena, Cyber Sub-Zero and Kung Lao as well while your add it. The moment a character comes along that has an answer to the top tier brokenness of some characters, those who main those characters cry for a nerf or ultimately a ban. lol

Translation...

 

[Zoidberg747]

For the final time:

The problem with Kotal's low sword is that it has so much blockstun it becomes way harder to punish. If we are going by frame data everyone should be able to punish it.

I'll give an example below starting at 6:45. This is Pnut, who made top 8 at Final Round, and GnarlyGatoAlex, Who made top 8 at TX Showdown. These two guys have played Kotal since day 1 and they do not punish low sword consistently. You can even see at 7:43 that Alex tries to punish low sword with F1(an 11f move) but Pnut has enough time to block. But please, continue to think I have no idea what I'm talking about. Its not that it isnt punishable, its that it is extremely hard to punish.

Ill hold the D4 comment though. I was thinking on block for some stupid reason.

@Tweedy bro the only thing positive you've said about Alien is that he's top 5 but everything else is why she struggles so much and why she isn't that good. The stuff you're saying and the thought that she is top 5 doesnt mix. D4 isnt supposed to guarantee anything because it has insane range to check people(and poison in acidic). Yes her mixups only do 7% but they end in a knockdown where Acidic or Konjurer can set up their great oki. And no, B3 is not slow enough to be stuffed if you do it from max range. F4 is if they are looking for it but basic yomi says that if they are looking for the B3 they won't see the F4 coming.This whole thing is pointless though because she will not be banned. You are downplaying the reasons she is top 5, even if you are ending your posts saying she is top 5. Like I said before I would hate to see any character banned, but that doesnt mean im going to let rampant downplay slide.

Edit: All that being said, I wish you the best of luck in your tournment endeavors @Tweedy

 

[GAV]

 

[x TeeJay o]

Throw those out vs any of the top characters. Have fun getting smacked by 9-13 frame advancing moves.

I just watched dragon b3 and f4 his way to another esl win lol. Especially b3. B3 also stops good advancing mids like kotals, dvorahs and jc f3 at max b3 range

Edit: also . bruh u know u are saying "Alien is arguably top 5" but keep listing all the bad things about her which is very few. Most aren't even real issues either lol. There's nothing wrong with your main being a top tier. Embrace it you could be a cyber sub main(lolz) . i know dvorah is easily top 5 i love it idc she's bae and i enjoy my character regardless

 

[GAV]

I just watched dragon b3 and f4 his way to another esl win lol. Especially b3. B3 also stops good advancing mids like kotals, dvorahs and jc f3 at max b3 range

Tweedy has progressed through Alien meaning that he can't see his own failings as a player because most of them are directly protected by Aliens' overall OP-ness. He doesn't see it as downplaying because he believes that he is on a much higher tier as a player than he really is. When he struggles, he deflects onto his character - which leaves him believing that Alien isn't OP.

 

[Tweedy]

I just watched dragon b3 and f4 his way to another esl win lol. Especially b3. B3 also stops good advancing mids like kotals, dvorahs and jc f3 at max b3 range

Edit: also . bruh u know u are saying "Alien is arguably top 5" but keep listing all the bad things about her which is very few. Most aren't even real issues either lol. There's nothing wrong with your main being a top tier. Embrace it you could be a cyber sub main(lolz) . i know dvorah is easily top 5 i love it idc she's bae and i enjoy my character regardless

You're not making any sense.

Me listing reasons on why Alien is not perfect and shouldn't be banned, does not mean that i'm lying when I say that I think Alien is top 5 or possibly top 1.

With that being said, you saying "there's nothing wrong with your main being a top tier", makes absolutely no sense.

Stop using vague arguments people. Stop skewing what i'm saying. Stop mixing opinions. Stop.

 

[GAV]

Tweedy sees himself and Alien as this...

...but its more like this...

...with Alien being Kobe.

 

[Tweedy]

For the final time:

The problem with Kotal's low sword is that it has so much blockstun it becomes way harder to punish. If we are going by frame data everyone should be able to punish it.

I'll give an example below starting at 6:45. This is Pnut, who made top 8 at Final Round, and GnarlyGatoAlex, Who made top 8 at TX Showdown. These two guys have played Kotal since day 1 and they do not punish low sword consistently. You can even see at 7:43 that Alex tries to punish low sword with F1(an 11f move) but Pnut has enough time to block. But please, continue to think I have no idea what I'm talking about. Its not that it isnt punishable, its that it is extremely hard to punish.

Ill hold the D4 comment though. I was thinking on block for some stupid reason.

@Tweedy bro the only thing positive you've said about Alien is that he's top 5 but everything else is why she struggles so much and why she isn't that good. The stuff you're saying and the thought that she is top 5 doesnt mix. D4 isnt supposed to guarantee anything because it has insane range to check people(and poison in acidic). Yes her mixups only do 7% but they end in a knockdown where Acidic or Konjurer can set up their great oki. And no, B3 is not slow enough to be stuffed if you do it from max range. F4 is if they are looking for it but basic yomi says that if they are looking for the B3 they won't see the F4 coming.This whole thing is pointless though because she will not be banned. You are downplaying the reasons she is top 5, even if you are ending your posts saying she is top 5. Like I said before I would hate to see any character banned, but that doesnt mean im going to let rampant downplay slide.

Edit: All that being said, I wish you the best of luck in your tournment endeavors @Tweedy

There is no rampant downplay.

My summarized arugment.

Alien should not be banned. Alien is top 5 and possibly top 1, but Alien is not a perfect character. His top tier neutral, armor and oki are balanced by his below average risk reward and meterless damage. His hitbox issues are also not as bad as all female characters.

The whole Kotal thing... Look man, if I didn't play the character you could scare me with name drops. However, I know that low sword can be punished. If I go to Combo Breaker to qualify for the 200k, Foxy Grampa will punish me for 35% meterless if he blocks either sword, Honeybee will full combo punish me. The relevant characters, outside of a few, will punish Kotal hard every time if executed correctly. You can name drop and post as many examples as you want. Block stun that does not vary will not stop great players.

I played Sonicfox in the ESL this week and he just frame standing 1 punished my B122 stagger with Erron Black, the 2nd time I staggered it. Punished me swords every time. You can say that they're too hard to punish consistently or whatever, but at a point people will do it, especially as the game ages.

Edit: Again, on the Kotal thing. You can change your argument(from basically unpunishable to hard-to-punish) all you want and continue to try and be correct, with your name drops and what not. All of those unlisted punishes that I posted are legit, in that other thread(I also forgot Boneshaper scoop for both). You can test them. I know the character. Name drops will not change my opinion.

 

[Tweedy]

Tweedy sees himself and Alien as this...

...but its more like this...

...with Alien being Kobe.

How does this prove me wrong at all?

I know you may not mean to be serious, but someone will post something like "ha everyone is clowning you cuz your wrong", off of this like it's some kind of snowball effect.

 

[Colest]

I played Sonicfox in the ESL this week and he just frame standing 1 punished my B122 stagger with Erron Black, the 2nd time I staggered it. Punished me swords every time. You can say that they're too hard to punish consistently or whatever, but at a point people will do it, especially as the game ages.

Funny because one of those irrelevant name drops beat Sonic with War God. He didn't get standing 1'd out of his strings. I am also struggling to recall a low sword punish in his matches. Surely it has nothing to do with the notion that maybe you're easy to read or have a linear gameplay style. Must mean the character is unsafe.

 

[GAV]

How does this prove me wrong at all?

I know you may not mean to be serious, but someone will post something like "ha everyone is clowning you cuz your wrong", off of this like it's some kind of snowball effect.

I was having fun with you and although a lot of people said you were shouting and throwing tantrums, I didn't see it that way. It was fun, but I actually think you handled yourself well.

I also believe what I said above. The pictures are my attempt to make it funny, but also give it a face.

I don't believe you are downplaying. I think you're just saying as you see it, but I also believe that Alien is clearly OP - and that its very clear to anyone who hasn't grown as a player with, and because of, the character's overall OP-ness. I don't want Alien banned. I also don't want a repeat of the Tanya vs Tanya-ness that was CEO - with Alien vs Alien at the biggest event of the year.

So, I want a mild hotfix.

If you were to ask Sonic Fox and he were to give you an honest answer, he would tell you that the meta between Alien and EB doesn't end with a simple sword punish. He would tell you that there's a next step. Knowing Fox, he probably knows a few steps beyond that.

...but you can't believe that EB owns an advantage over Alien. Its Sonic Fox that owns an advantage over, well, seemingly - everyone.