LiangHuBBB
Noob
Reading through this thread to see if I want to pick him up as an alt..
What's the general consensus? Is he too slow/whatever for high level of play? Too many weaknesses?
yes & yes
still rly fun character to play
Reading through this thread to see if I want to pick him up as an alt..
What's the general consensus? Is he too slow/whatever for high level of play? Too many weaknesses?
I think he's pretty solid...That's a real bummer to hear :/
Only if his opponent is rain, yes. Cause rain is a liquid.I think he's pretty solid...
But I don't want to . Until Tremor gets releasedTakeda is fun but i dont think he has the tools to be viable..time to find another char..
Been playing Takeda for a good while and I've come up with these things...using Shirai Ryu as main reference as that's the one I play the most. (Yay for general discussion right?)
Offense
-He's not bad on offense considering d3 & d4 retract and the cancels to Kunai are great for checking the opponent.
-His mixup game is decent with the pseudo unblockables with EX Kunai. So you can easily dictate to your pace should they attempt to armor if you read right and release. Doesn't work 100% but its there.
-His throw and Fist Flurry (as an ender) leave you at great spacings for b2 > stuff or the above EX Kunai unblocks so not bad there either
Defense
-The fact that 1 (11f), d1 (11f), d3 (12f), d4 (16f) are all slow means poking out of pressure practically non existent. (This game's frame data is driving me up the wall as last night d1 was read as 10f and same with d2 read as 7f but is now 8f...NRS PLZ T_T)
-It's apparent we all agree in the corner its practically death for this man so this position isn't fun.
-The lack of extended armor on Fist Flurry and Tornado Kick makes escaping pressure a tremendous struggle. Fist Flurry loses to some pretty whacky things such as D'Vorah (Venomous) Bug Spray hold. You'll start up but because the move is more than 1 hit you lose to it. Other examples would be quick strings that your opponent does to you during pressure or wake up will stuff you clean.
-Throws are your best friends for punishing strings on block. 1 being too slow to start makes punishment a nightmare.
I think overall he's solid if you can maintain a specific mid range (in Shirai Ryu and I'm sure it may apply to the other variations as well). Conditioning is the name of the game but the problem here is that his normals are just to slow to compete. Imo to make him more competitive is to speed up the pokes I mentioned above so that he can poke out of pressure to some degree which in turn helps start his pressure. Also maybe up the speed of activation on Fist Flurry so it can get to things quicker and not get stuffed when EX'ed. Speed in general is his problem and for a ninja to be slow...lawl wut? Either way just my 2c.
Discuss!
I think his tools are totally fine they just need to be quicker. Again if you speed up his armor move activations he'll be able to plow through things he needs to. Double back, maybe make the teleport feints quicker to make dash cancel pressure stronger? I mean there's a ton of fixes you can do but I feel these things would bump him up tremendously in starting pressure, poking out of pressure, and escaping when getting a read. (Aka NOT guaranteed)I couldn't agree more with everything you said.
I cant stand getting molested by pressure / stuck in the corner..but fucking people up at b3 range with mixups is amazing...
Overall I dont think he has the tools required
Mostly agree with you.hey so I've been playing Takeda for a week now and just wanted to give my 2 cents. I'm not that good and I know it's still early but here's what i think so far:
Shirai Ryu:
Like everyone's been saying he struggles up close cuz his normals and armor are so slow. Only way i've been able to escape pressure is to backdash or hope that there's an interactable nearby. It especially sucks in the corner, i tend to do neutral jump punches or air teleport to try and escape.
His njp i find is pretty good for stopping runs and jump ins. They also have to watch out for air spear and teleport so you can pretty much jump around and you'll have a lot of options your opponent has to respect.
Mix in b21 and kunais to keep them out. Kunais are slow (31 frames) so it's not really a mix-up but i think they're still a decent zoning tool. Something you have to watch out for is whiffing b21 if they are fullscreen cuz they can run up and whiff punish, but if you read that you can do b212+4 to catch their run. Also mix up your kunais cuz sometimes they can run past a kunai and punish you, so doing a close kunai will catch them. If they're sitting there waiting to block your b21/kunais then you can run up and go for a mix-up.
One thing that sucks about Takeda is that all of his kunais can be armored out of. Any string cancelled into kunai they can just input their armor and either block the string or armor through. They can also armor out of the last hit of his f122+4 string if they block the 3rd hit low, which makes this string completely unsafe if they have meter.
Another thing since his b2 and b3 are so slow, any jump punch into 50/50 can be armored out of. So you'll have to make a read and block or do a cross-up and make their move whiff. You can also substitute your low for a d4 which will hit them if they try inputting armor (doesn't work on characters that end with a down input).
His best combo enders are fist flurry (so you can go for 50/50) and air spear (to keep them at b2 range) and it also depends on which side you want to be on cuz air spear switches sides. One thing I've been messing around with is EX Kunais cuz if you think they're going to stay grounded you can throw them out and get a near unblockable earthshaker combo. After fist flurry you can also do an instant air teleport to reverse their wake-up inputs and you'll be at neutral or positive. Then you can mix up with throw, b2/b3, or njp if they press any buttons.
Anti-airs i think his most reliable is d2 but i think standing 1 might work too. EX teleport lowers his hitbox, not sure if it can work as an anti-air tho. I find EX teleport to be his go-to wake-up attack but one thing that sucks is that they can do a poke and still block in time and punish you. His other useful footsie tools I'd say are f3, d3 and d4.
Tornado Kick - I have not found any use for this move...if someone finds anything useful please tell me
Ronin:
This variation makes up for Shirai Ryu's lack of armor but it loses out on damage and he loses all of the good tools that make Shirai Ryu so good. He has a decent projectile and decent rushdown but it's not up to par with the rushdown that other characters have IMO.
I find his b212+4 to be his best string. They can't armor out of it after a jump punch and you can cancel into blade drop -> blade summon for a frametrap that actually beats out armor attempts. Once they respect that then you can do a mid blade drop and go for f122+4. As I said before they can armor through that string but the blade summon will actually beat it out. So then you can do the Quick Kall move to be at + and go for a 50/50.
The problem with blade summon is that the frame data is wrong (it says -5 on block). It actually has RANDOM BLOCKSTUN cuz sometimes they'll block it for one hit or two hits. Two hits is punishable by around 8 frame moves and one hit is punishable by 14 frame moves. They still have to respect the blade summon though so you can still kinda pressure them.
I like to end my combos with fist flurry then throw out a blade, which lands perfectly on top of them. The blade summon will beat out a lot of EX wake-up attacks but it doesn't work on fast wake-ups. If they respect the blade then you can run up for a throw or go for pressure.
Throwing out blades can be risky though because if you get hit and you're being pressured you lose your armor move/any decent wake-up attack. I really only throw it out if I knock them down cuz usually it's free chip.
Lasher:
Honestly I think this variation is poo poo.
I think Takeda is still a pretty good character but he has problems. I think Shirai Ryu is his best variation, then Ronin followed by Lasher, mainly because Shirai Ryu has more tools and damage compared to the others. Maybe I'm wrong, idk. Obviously though this can all change in the upcoming patches.
yea at this point idk maybe some variations are better in certain match-ups than others. We might be underrating Lasher, at least the armor in that variation gets him a combo, but everything is so unsafe. The only reason I'd use Ronin is for the armor move, but other than that his mix-ups are still the same as Shirai Ryu's except Shirai Ryu gets more damage from them. You can actually make Shirai Ryu's overhead safe from armor by cancelling b21 into teleport and cancel out of that but it requires stamina. Shirai Ryu's tools seem to outweigh Ronin's IMO plus you always have the option to backdash to get out of pressure.Mostly agree with you.
I didn't even bother to try out Lasher, just doesn't look good to me.
Takeda has a problem that no variation change will fix, lack of good "get me the fuck out of this pressure"-tools.
His pokes and normals are way too slow at 10-frames. I hope NRS decides to buff his D1 to be faster.
Because being stuck in the corner against Goro and the fact Takeda still has to block Goro's pokes after a punchwalk is so fucking stupid.
I do think Rhonin might end up being his best variation. Shirai Ryu has the advantage of having range, teleport and good punishes, so that will be useful against certain characters. But Rhonin is looking to be more solid because of legit mix-ups and the ability to do more than just F3 when in that range. In Rhonin he doesn't have to deal with armor as much as he does in Shirai Ryu, also has EX DP as an extra option to get out of pressure. But the damage in Rhonin kinda sucks lol, if you can punish with B112 then please do. Spending the bar only increases the damage with 1/2%. I was hoping he'd have blade cancel combo's to get some more damage, but that's not the case.
I'll be honest I've never considered canceling b21 in to tele cancel.. That's interesting. Thanks for that,yea at this point idk maybe some variations are better in certain match-ups than others. We might be underrating Lasher, at least the armor in that variation gets him a combo, but everything is so unsafe. The only reason I'd use Ronin is for the armor move, but other than that his mix-ups are still punishable whereas Shirai Ryu's mix-ups are only punishable if they have meter and he gets more damage from them. You can actually make Shirai Ryu's overhead safe from armor by cancelling b21 into teleport and cancel out of that but it requires stamina. Shirai Ryu's tools seem to outweigh Ronin's IMO plus you always have the option to backdash to get out of pressure.
yea but you need stamina. Was messing around a bit more with Ronin and you can actually make his overhead safe too by cancelling into piercing spark.I'll be honest I've never considered canceling b21 in to tele cancel.. That's interesting. Thanks for that,
yipes posted this a while agoI feel takeda is and will remain mid tier. He's alright, but he relies heavy on combo confirming and playing a good neutral game. His damage is awesome and I feel it should be.
My main problem with him is his corner potentional. He literally gains nothing from the corner..