General/Other - Sub-Zero Sub-Zero Beta Discussion Thread

[Lokheit]

Njk and j1 111 dont work like that. Your reward is literally not having to deal with wake ups in the corner at all while being safe.

NJK if timed properly hits and then propels you over their hitbox evading the armored attack while dealing 7 damage and being safe on block with pushback.

As I explained before, Air Hammer has more cons than pros and any experienced Cryo ends up realizing it's a gimmicky move not worth using when you have better options. Even just stepping back and blocking is superior to trying to break armor with it. The move is crap on its current state and needs something to promote its use.

They "buffed" it into no suicidal on block but they didn't change the fact that it has no real use in your gameplan. Too slow, too short range, no real pushback on block (-2 is already unsafe for Cryo face to face, he gets eaten alive at that range), bare fist uppercuts beat it going through the hammer hitbox to hit you, no reward on hit (really short knockdown leading to another wakeup attemp without being able to use it), leads to nothing and is outclassed by other moves.

And the fact remains: Cryo NEEDS something to be respected and force risks as right now he depends on the other player making mistakes without having tools to help with that. Air Hammer is crap but it could be improved to be the tool Cryo needs to make his gameplan interesting and have a chance to influence those mistakes.

EDIT: When I speak about it restanding I mean using the restand that is already implemented on the first hit and then remove the knock down from the second hit but keep the hit advantage for 50/50. The current restand setup leaves you at negative advantage as mentioned above because it requires you to miss the second hit.

 

[Cossner]

Does Ground Hammer do this or Air Hammer? I haven't looked into Cryo yet just GM.

Air hammer, after a knockdown you can do instant air hammer, it hits twice really quick and it breaks armor.

NJK if timed properly hits and then propels you over their hitbox evading the armored attack while dealing 7 damage and being safe on block with pushback.

As I explained before, Air Hammer has more cons than pros and any experienced Cryo ends up realizing it's a gimmicky move not worth using when you have better options. Even just stepping back and blocking is superior to trying to break armor with it. The move is crap on its current state and needs something to promote its use.

They "buffed" it into no suicidal on block but they didn't change the fact that it has no real use in your gameplan. Too slow, too short range, no real pushback on block (-2 is already unsafe for Cryo face to face, he gets eaten alive at that range), bare fist uppercuts beat it going through the hammer hitbox to hit you, no reward on hit (really short knockdown leading to another wakeup attemp without being able to use it), leads to nothing and is outclassed by other moves.

And the fact remains: Cryo NEEDS something to be respected and force risks as right now he depends on the other player making mistakes without having tools to help with that. Air Hammer is crap but it could be improved to be the tool Cryo needs to make his gameplan interesting and have a chance to influence those mistakes.

EDIT: When I speak about it restanding I mean using the restand that is already implemented on the first hit and then remove the knock down from the second hit but keep the hit advantage for 50/50. The current restand setup leaves you at negative advantage as mentioned above because it requires you to miss the second hit.

Sigh, njk doesnt work like air hammer at all. Just because they're not armoring out of your njk doesnt mean they can't. -2 is not unsafe and even less when you have a ridiculous backdash. I don't think you understand why breaking every armor in the break and not letting your opponent wake up at all is a good conditioning tool. Now you're gonna tell me KJ's F3 is bad because it's - and "you don't get anything". The issue with cryomancer is how exposed he is after doing his mix ups. But it compensates for his good mobility, ridiculous air normals, good backdash, pokes and ez mode damage.

 

[M.D.]

It should definitively not be it.

j1 needs to be normalized as everyone else had theirs.
d3, d4 needs to be nerfed as everyone else had theirs.
Ex frost bomb should be nerfed into the ground (since cassie lost armor on her launcher it's only normalizing as well).

 

[conqueror]

I wanted Ice Shower for Cryo but instead they gave that to Tremor. It would have been perfect to laying pressure on the opponent.

cryo and unbreakable really need some reliable ice moves since there is no ice clone to protect you

ice shower, ground shower, screen shower anything will do good

 

[Lokheit]

Air hammer, after a knockdown you can do instant air hammer, it hits twice really quick and it breaks armor.

Sigh, njk doesnt work like air hammer at all. Just because they're not armoring out of your njk doesnt mean they can't. -2 is not unsafe and even less when you have a ridiculous backdash. I don't think you understand why breaking every armor in the break and not letting your opponent wake up at all is a good conditioning tool. Now you're gonna tell me KJ's F3 is bad because it's - and "you don't get anything". The issue with cryomancer is how exposed he is after doing his mix ups. But it compensates for his good mobility, ridiculous air normals, good backdash, pokes and ez mode damage.

And that's really beautiful on paper... but when you play Cryo every day you realize air hammer is crap, if you're going to need to backdash anyway (btw Sub-Zero backdash is overated because the animation, data about all backdashes was posted and Sub-Zero is middle of the ground), you better step back and block instead of taking the risk. If they delay the wakeup you're DEAD.

Opponents will see it coming from a mile and then you're dead while your only reward is a very short knock down in case they don't see it comming. Yeepe. When anyone else attemps to break armor the reward is really high and the risk much lower. Even a 50/50 won't be as high a reward compared to others.

You're talking like I'm new to the character or I've not been squeezing everything Cryo has for hundreds of hours in matches and the lab. Air hammer is not part of an effective gameplan. Cool on paper, garbage on real gameplay (btw insta Air Hammer won't break armor you need to wait some frames and against the fastest armors you risk hitting only once or not hitting at all).

 

[Dankster Morgan]

It should definitively not be it.

j1 needs to be normalized as everyone else had theirs.
d3, d4 needs to be nerfed as everyone else had theirs.
Ex frost bomb should be nerfed into the ground (since cassie lost armor on her launcher it's only normalizing as well).

Someone who actually wants to nerf D3? Give me a break.

 

[Sage Leviathan]

...did they actually not do shit for Unbreakable?

LMAO. No, no I refuse to believe that. I must've missed a thread somewhere.

 

[Evil Sorcerer]

I main Quan Chi, who will most likely get nerfed to the ground. GM Sub is one of my 2 secondaries, as he hasn't been touched and all the S tiers have been or will be nerfed, he's looking even stronger now. Looking forward to using him more often (alongside either Cyrax or Smoke who I definitely want to learn).
Too bad for the other 2 variations, especially Unbreakable, that variation needed a lot of help.

 

[Savage8-8]

I believe the only buff that Unbreakable needs is the parry adjusted. The parry is -73 on whiff and is 6 frames meterless. I dont see an issue increasing the startup of the normal parry to 3 or 4 frames and the EX to 1. If the parry was at least that fast i wouldn't care if it was -500 on whiff. But if people think that would be broken then at least reduce the recovery. Does anybody think that the parry is okay the way it is?

 

[ShaolinGunFu]

What if unbreakable can make it start snowing, and he can form small snowballs from the ground that deal little to no damage when thrown at the opponent?

 

[Lokheit]

What if unbreakable can make it start snowing, and he can form small snowballs from the ground that deal little to no damage when thrown at the opponent?

Only if on hit Subbie laughs cheerfully making him vulnerable to full combo

EDIT: And ex version is yellow snow and drains your stamina.

 

[haketh]

Okay I finally got a chance to fuck around with Air Hammer on Knockdown

@RM Cossner is right this shit is good what the fuck

 

[XxTheGoblinX]

Watch Cyber Sub still be trash. The entire variation already seems gimmicky.

GM> Cyber> Cryo> Unbreakable

Feel free to quote me and blow me up for it later.

Funny if Cyber sub was top tier. Ill remember what u said lol

 

[Lokheit]

Okay I finally got a chance to fuck around with Air Hammer on Knockdown

@RM Cossner is right this shit is good what the fuck

Use it consistently in real matches against someone that knows what he is doing and see who gets a higher reward when you use it.

Anyway, I think my conversation with Cossner ended up being too specific about it, when my real point is that given how Air Hammer could use a buff, it might become the tool Cryo needs to see the light in competitive play. He needs something and the key could be there.

Cryo is missing just 1 tool to generate respect to be of real use.

 

[haketh]

Use it consistently in real matches against someone that knows what he is doing and see who gets a higher reward when you use it.

Anyway, I think my conversation with Cossner ended up being too specific about it, when my real point is that given how Air Hammer could use a buff, it might become the tool Cryo needs to see the light in competitive play. He needs something and the key could be there.

Cryo is missing just 1 tool to generate respect to be of real use.

Honestly when it comes to Cyro I feel it needs more variation specific stuff, like a string that lets him keep better pressure but he gets little damage off of it ya feel me? It feels like a big burst of damage then nothing after Variation which is weird seeing how it's the infighter variation for Sub.

 

[Lokheit]

Honestly when it comes to Cyro I feel it needs more variation specific stuff, like a string that lets him keep better pressure but he gets little damage off of it ya feel me? It feels like a big burst of damage then nothing after Variation which is weird seeing how it's the infighter variation for Sub.

That's why I'm proposing to make Air Hammer a true restand. The first hit already restands (you can test against Quan Chi armor timed to occur during the second hit or in the corner doing EX Hammer, Jumping Kick Air Hammer so the second hit doesn't connect) and you only need to change the second hit to eliminate the knock down and give advantage instead.

You can get 29-31% meterless corner combos ended on air hammer and 37-42% 1 bar. You sacrifice 7-9% damage compared with the regular HKD hammer ended combos. If it restands you sacrifice the damage to keep the pressure and midscreen if you jump they have to respect the hammer because it would grant a 50/50 but you can't be too predictable because it's slow and easy to punish even with uppercuts going through the hammer to hit you. Variation issues solved and he wouldn't even be close to the most damaging restand combos in the game.

This are the possible corner combos if Air Hammer finishers were a thing:

(Starter into Iceball or naked) - B2-242-Jumping Kick 3 (has to be instant, which would add execution to Cryo so it no longer is ABC easy combos to compensate)-Air Hammer.

(Starter into Iceball or naked) - B2-B2-F421+3-Ex Hammer- Jumping Kick 3- Air Hammer

 

[STK]

Any SZ changes?

 

[boba_buster]

Shatter combo nerf , that's bout it

 

[Crimnoist]

sorry in advance .. don't want to seem disrespectful , probably the way you play / he is a better opponent is the reason why you lost ?

 

[UsedForGlue]

Just let F4 recover better so he can stagger, make 112 zero on block with push back and we are good.

Then sort out Unbreakable...no one can seriously think that Unbreakable is a viable variation in any match up.

 

[Treadmill]

Yup

Yup? What the...mother fucker you put this in the sub zero forum and the op is basically a bitch fest about scorpion with barely a mention of sub zero....

 

[boba_buster]

Ppl are still just realizing this was a salty thread?

 

[STK]

Most threads on TYM are salty threads. You just have to post and hope some good sifts its way through the bs.

 

[Lokheit]

Just let F4 recover better so he can stagger, make 112 zero on block with push back and we are good.

Then sort out Unbreakable...no one can seriously think that Unbreakable is a viable variation in any match up.

AFAIK F4 recover is what lets you jail into hammer or iceball on block or what makes cancel into any clone or aura safe, it's fine as it is and you could kill it by removing the recovery. It's safe on block, has amazing reach and is the only move that let's you cancel on block into anything (and it's not even close, the next ones are 11 and 3 that let you cancel into regular ice burst and that's all). It's already the best move Sub-Zero has and it's not even close.

I totally agree 112 needs pushback or plus on block (or both) considering 11 jails into regular iceburst anyway there is no point on using it and the animation looks like it hits like a truck so pushback on block would make a lot of sense.

Unbreakable needs a lot of stuff or a reset button to start on a clean slate. Cryo could use one way to make opponents respect him (restanding air hammer or ground pound like air hammer would do the trick and would also insert the move in your regular gameplan as Cryo).

 

[omooba]

They managed to make scorpion even more of a pain in the ass with the beta changes so far. Played a long set with a good scorpion. He Literally controlled the neutral threw the whole set. Hellfire>GM
Ninjutsu>cryo
Scorps pokes are better , you can't jump at scorp or you eat full combo
Pretty much all you can do is block to punish or backdash to whiff punish , scorpion has the best neutral in the entire game hands down how is he not considered s+++ tier?
He's a walking 33/33/33 who controls the entire pace of the match
Last time I had a problem with scorp was around release but once I learned the MU I haven't had any trouble with them till now with this beta. Was I just having a bad night or did those little buffs he got make that big of a diff?!?!

wtf dude
all he got was deceent pressure in helfire and slightly better spacing inninjutsu how is this even close to being S