Should MK10 have true command grabs?

[Peckapowa]

well i was developing some of the tech at the time, so, yep. he was a fun, interesting, and poorly designed character. but presumably they've learned more about character design through mk9 and especially igau, which manages to have some really fun and crazy stuff even while keeping things pretty well balanced. i hope they'll figure out a way to include command grabs in 10.

don't let tournament placings fool you, injustice well wind up having an oligarchy, or a martian dictatorship, give the game time.

 

[Circus]

I don't see why some of you are saying it'll be a bad idea because of the block button...

In the meta of how mk9 was played, mobility was just as good as any game with back to block. Im sure after making the grapplers in Injustice that theyll have no problem making a proper grappler.

The question is.... Who will it be?

 

[Red Reaper]

mbb3 all his setups

he has no answer.

or NJ.

you're welcome

he's a bill.

WCC into WC... or WCC into block.

 

[Zoidberg747]

Grapplers should have command grabs that are untechable, thats sort of the whole point of them being grapplers.

 

[AK L0rdoftheFLY]

WCC into WC... or WCC into block.

that doesn't leave him in a good place.

b3 f3 have longer frames if you want due to charge than WC or WCC so by cancelling it into another your pretty much still in the same position. if you block they are at plus frames and you have to go for it all over again.

i don't se how people still think grundy is viable.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

WCC into WC... or WCC into block.

WCC is a bill....... you can do a late crossover and the cancel inputs will reverse last second and you'll whiff the throw and get punished.
Everything Grundy has is a Bill........ he just has so many Bills you have to know when to bill the bill.

 

[ChaosTheory]

Grapplers should have command grabs that are untechable, thats sort of the whole point of them being grapplers.

I agree, but only if the move is some sort of single-hit or single-sequence move. Like the Back-Breaker Fly posted about.

If it's a "grab" move like Cyrax's is in MK9, inability to tech out of it seems like it would be overpowered. I mean, in my opinion, Cyrax was an awesome character without his ridiculous damage. A big reason why was his normals/strings (a bunch of 0 on block) along with that command grab that could quickly fuck you out of a lot of life either by looping the grab or confirming into a full combo.

 

[Vak Phoenix]

Duh

 

[GGA Saucy Jack]

I'd go one step further and make unblockable throws unable to be absorbed by armored attacks, this includes universal throws. LBSH, ARMORED attacks cant be THROWN because why?

Yes I get that it's a video game so moving on to the gameplay side of things, I believe grapplers would be much more threatening than they are now, aside from Bane who is more of a tank than anything. In Injustice, Grapplers don't have extra health to combat zoning and take risks, the damage they do are on par with non grapplers, despite being on the slow side as well. Make their grabs scary.

Bane and Grundy both have extra health. Reduced damage due to trait IS extra health.

Further Grundy can counter zone you with MB swamp hands and Bane can make half his move set projectile invulnerable at level three. Lobo is a grappler that can counter zone you for 28 percent with shotguns.

On top of all of that all the grapplers have good mobility tools.

Bane's tele...or forward dash and back dash
Grundy forward dash and WC.
Shazam has a teleport
Lobos forward dash

I'm not saying these characters don't have weakness'...but to paint them all as needing help to "make them scary" I disagree with. They can all do work, and have been given tools to get the job done.

 

[MKF30]

If there was an indifferent or torn between I would have voted that, but said no but if they are in there I won't mind. I think a low or mid tier could use them honestly.

 

[Crathen]

More importantly should the next MK have good knockdown oki or just remain chip heavy?That's the big question imo.

Command grab characters will have to deal with wakeups and it's not gonna be either block unsafe wakeup or grab them at least looking at MK9 wakeups , a good bunch were safe or moved away from you.

How about the actual speed of the cmd grabs? If you make them too fast there's no invincible backdash to get you out of there and you're forced to jump / armor ( again basing this on how mk9 worked ) , if you make them too slow they're gonna be weak with how the movement worked , also gotta factor in the whiff recovery.

For once i'd like to see a little more advantage and hard knockdowns from grapplers. Cmd grab actual damage and post oki are a big deal too.

And if you make their buttons too slow they'd have to be compensated w armor or invincibility.

Honestly i'd leave it up to NRS.

 

[Circus]

I think its hilarious that people are saying true command grabs will be overpowered with back to block when in realty with back to block you have TONS more mobilty than you do in Injustice.

Remember when Injustice first came out and everyone was complaining about how movement wasnt as fast paced as MK9?

 

[Circus]

More importantly should the next MK have good knockdown oki or just remain chip heavy?That's the big question imo.

Command grab characters will have to deal with wakeups and it's not gonna be either block unsafe wakeup or grab them at least looking at MK9 wakeups , a good bunch were safe or moved away from you.

How about the actual speed of the cmd grabs? If you make them too fast there's no invincible backdash to get you out of there and you're forced to jump / armor ( again basing this on how mk9 worked ) , if you make them too slow they're gonna be weak with how the movement worked , also gotta factor in the whiff recovery.

For once i'd like to see a little more advantage and hard knockdowns from grapplers. Cmd grab actual damage and post oki are a big deal too.

And if you make their buttons too slow they'd have to be compensated w armor or invincibility.

Honestly i'd leave it up to NRS.

You bring up a great point. Invincible back dashes won't be an escape option like it is in Injustice so theyd definitely have to take that into account.

 

[OnlineRon91]

Bane and Grundy both have extra health. Reduced damage due to trait IS extra health.

Further Grundy can counter zone you with MB swamp hands and Bane can make half his move set projectile invulnerable at level three. Lobo is a grappler that can counter zone you for 28 percent with shotguns.

On top of all of that all the grapplers have good mobility tools.

Bane's tele...or forward dash and back dash
Grundy forward dash and WC.
Shazam has a teleport
Lobos forward dash

I'm not saying these characters don't have weakness'...but to paint them all as needing help to "make them scary" I disagree with. They can all do work, and have been given tools to get the job done.

Very well constructed points. In the end it all boils down to preference and what the game designers see fit. While I still believe that grabs should be able to scoop through armor, I respect your point of view.

Additional Note: Isn't it amazing how you were able to pinpoint the different ways each grappler could handle themselves and how different they all are? It's pretty remarkable how much thought was placed into these characters and how far apart they are from each other.

 

[MisguidedAngel]

Sheeva needs it.

 

[Colares]

Ken and Blanka are considered grapplers by some people in ST because their throws were techable but they did a lot of damage if hit. Maybe Ultra David can say a bit more on this case.
But I think throws can appear as both unb and blockable it just depends if it will lead to a too advantageous position but there's also range, speed, invunerabilities to consider.
I think that Sonya if she learned BJiuJitsu together with her handstand move could be a fun grappler hybrid.

 

[ETC AdmiralAugustus]

Make Hsu Hao a grappler

Make him do ridiculous amounts of damage

Make him susceptible to zoning but ways around it.

Make him top 10.

Make him sexy.

 

[WakeUp DP]

Honestly, bdf is a lot easier to input for me than bf.

But not what is the input for MMHs special and Lobos command grabs? Those r awkward as fuck.

 

[Big Pampering]

Depends on what the possible counters are. If teching the grab is the only counter against it, I would say no.

 

[TomlulsBrady]

>mfw when they took the advantage off Jax's gotcha grab

I always looked at the day 1 version of jax as a new out of the box take on a grappler. His grab was blockable but it gave so much advantage on block it allowed Jax to have
legit pressure unlike the fake shit he had later on. Tyrant Jax at evo 2011 was basically built around trying to force the opponent to block GG for the advantage so in a sense Jax was design around the use of his grab, wasn't traditional, but I thought how GG worked was really unique.

either way Paulo is a fucking genius he can make anything work.

 

[Phosferrax]

mbb3 all his setups

he has no answer.

or NJ.

you're welcome

he's a bill.

iirc you can't mb stand 1~trait grab on block, cleaver can't be neutral jumped and walking corpse can be cancelled before the back 3 hits.

 

[Konqrr]

Yes unblockable BUT ... they should absolutely NOT be able to be 2-in-1'd from normals (#GruckFundy) as that shit is beyond stupid.

 

[CURBOLICOUS]

You can have command grabs in MK but it needs to have a block.button

 

[chemist4hire]

I don't see why some of you are saying it'll be a bad idea because of the block button...

I imagine because tick throw setups would be stronger with the block button. In back to block games, as soon as you are done blocking you start walking backwards. In most games with back to block, a good tick throw set up is one that forces the opponent to block low then eat the throw because when you block low you don't move backwards after blocking. With a block button, you basically have a strong tick throw setups of of low, mid and high attacks. Im not saying they will be overpowering or anything but it limits your options.

Keep in mind, tic throw setups are a grapplers bread and butter in back to block games because most of them do not allow you to be thrown while in hit stun, meaning you can't combo into a throw. NRS games don't follow that approach. They are kind of like SNK games when it comes to this aspect.

 

[TaffyMeat]

With kano I F+3 into choke as people block high. Command grab to reset kombo. I can see it happening.