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General/Other - Necromancer Shinnok (necromancer) is close to being a good character.

imblackjames

imblackjames

Ive seen the leprechaun
I actually already think that hes already a good character in necromancer. If the stuff tracked better hed be really close to being too good. I know the people i play (even when running in) have a hard time dealing with his keep away game. His f224 string is great for covering distance in ffootsies. i of course id like all of what u said to happen because he is my character but its a slippery slope
 
Kinetic Balding1

Kinetic Balding1

Day 1 Phenomenal Cyborg
General M2Dave said:
You also thought Cyborg was good, went even with Aquaman, only lost 6:4 to Zod, etc.

In other words, your opinion stinks.
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ConsoleCombat said:
I would like to hear you elaborate on why?
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Hes not a zoner. Hes more like a play it safe spacing character. His zoning tools work best like at half screen. His 16 frame f2 is probably the farthest reaching normal in the game which outranges almost all the normals in the game. Shinnok is best played with a little bit of space midscreen. He's a bad zoner fullscreen because his db2 isn't fullscreen and his bf2 can be ran through for some reason. Get a little closer, and he becomes a solid mid range character. Unlike his other variations, all his moves have a purpose. They weren't made with no uses (ex. Grundy's bf2) He also has one of the fastest full combo punishers in the game with his 6frame b3, which he can full combo for near 30% while a lot of characters have to punish a -6 move with just a d1 or d3.
 
SaJa

SaJa

FH_FenriR
Kinetic Balding1 said:
Hes not a zoner. Hes more like a play it safe spacing character. His zoning tools work best like at half screen. His 16 frame f2 is probably the farthest reaching normal in the game which outranges almost all the normals in the game. Shinnok is best played with a little bit of space midscreen. He's a bad zoner fullscreen because his db2 isn't fullscreen and his bf2 can be ran through for some reason. Get a little closer, and he becomes a solid mid range character. Unlike his other variations, all his moves have a purpose. They weren't made with no uses (ex. Grundy's bf2) He also has one of the fastest full combo punishers in the game with his 6frame b3, which he can full combo for near 30% while a lot of characters have to punish a -6 move with just a d1 or d3.
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I think they are talking about the variation, not the average character. I feel like Shinnok has a great mobility. His dash and run are also pretty good.
 
Doombawkz

Doombawkz

Trust me, I'm a doctor
Pig Of The Hut said:
Hmm I don't think shinnok is anything like bane in any way metaphorical or realistically
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I think he is. Bane could've been viable with just a change to his dash and venom cooldown.
Then they made him into an unnecessarily beefy monster, because his core tools were already strong without a 4 frame discount on his d.2 or an no-parry charge.

I feel like Shinnok is the same way, he has potential but needs only a few changes to have it realized. If he gets buffed in slightly the wrong way, or gets buffed in the slightly wrong amount... could be terrifying.

Thats just me though, you could be right.
 
Skylight1

Skylight1

Noob
Should I continue to use Bone Shaper variation then if necromancer seems to be the right variation for him? I'm confused now!
 
Skylight1

Skylight1

Noob
xInfra Deadx said:
Anything other than Impostor right now is not the way to go if you're using this character.
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Can you explain why this variation is supposedly better than the other two? I've heard that Bone and Necro were his best two variations and that impostor was complete garbage. But again, it is too early still to compare.
 
xInfra Deadx

xInfra Deadx

Gimmick stolen by Jordan Peele
Skylight1 said:
Can you explain why this variation is supposedly better than the other two? I've heard that Bone and Necro were his best two variations and that impostor was complete garbage. But again, it is too early still to compare.
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Impostor has Mimicry which you can end your combos with and in addition of getting one of your opponent's move and a 1.3% damage boost, he gets a (gasp) 50-50 between 1,1,2 and throw. The throw itself is a 50-50 due to which direction you have to tech...and 1,1,2 will land about 40% with a bar. He also keeps his amulet which is a godsend in the corner. (+14 on block and Mid)
 
bloodsport

bloodsport

wat
Skylight1 said:
Can you explain why this variation is supposedly better than the other two? I've heard that Bone and Necro were his best two variations and that impostor was complete garbage. But again, it is too early still to compare.
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no way bone shaper is better than impostor. impostor he has less shitty damage, the vortex, it's very matchup dependent but mimicry is retarded vs some characters ie jax. necromancer has a lot better space control and would be waaaaaay better than bone shaper if flick just tracked better. bone shaper is pretty lackluster, the standing reset doesn't really do anything or lead to anything amazing (so far) and the rest of his tools aren't incredible or very impactful to the space control game you want to play with shinnok

imo as it is right now i would say impostor = necromancer > bone shaper. the impostor vortex is nice dirt. over time i think necromancer will be worse since atm i think it capitalizes on unfamiliarity with his tools.
 
I

its_ezie

Noob
i think thos variation is just sucky just like the rest of the characters. theres atleast one bad and one good variation for everyone. Just unfortunate that this variation is one of his worst
 
Skylight1

Skylight1

Noob
bloodsport said:
no way bone shaper is better than impostor. impostor he has less shitty damage, the vortex, it's very matchup dependent but mimicry is retarded vs some characters ie jax. necromancer has a lot better space control and would be waaaaaay better than bone shaper if flick just tracked better. bone shaper is pretty lackluster, the standing reset doesn't really do anything or lead to anything amazing (so far) and the rest of his tools aren't incredible or very impactful to the space control game you want to play with shinnok

imo as it is right now i would say impostor = necromancer > bone shaper. the impostor vortex is nice dirt. over time i think necromancer will be worse since atm i think it capitalizes on unfamiliarity with his tools.
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I'm a user who doesn't really use certain things like these "vortexes", I'm not quite sure how to use those. I stick to things I know I can use like in BS the F2,2, 1+3 or his F or B3,2,D+1. Maybe I need to work on my variation switching but I do need more information on all of his variations. Impostor seems way too hard for me to use so I stick to the more easier things.
 
Skylight1

Skylight1

Noob
its_ezie said:
i think thos variation is just sucky just like the rest of the characters. theres atleast one bad and one good variation for everyone. Just unfortunate that this variation is one of his worst
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So you'd say that Necro was his worst and Impostor is his best perhaps?
 
RM Jonnitti

RM Jonnitti

Hot Dog
General M2Dave said:
In this game, you need to have some really good tools if you lack a 50/50 mix up, and Shinnok has nothing (unless you know something that the Shinnok community does not). It is as simple as that.
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i agree with this but i dont really feel like shinnok doesn't have the tools. i feel like NRS designed him with the right tools in mind, but they just don't work properly or have shitty frames. to me it kind of seems like he might have been really good in pre-release builds and was then over-nerfed. i just hope he gts fixed in a patch
 
S

snort

Noob
I agree that Shinnok is crap and needs some improvements since he lacks an overhead. His f2 is a beast though with it's godlike range, +48 on hit too (necromancer). They should have made his amulet strike a projectile on this variation too.
 
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RM_NINfan101

RM_NINfan101

Nine Inch Nails fan from Metro Detroit, Michigan
We will see if he gets tweaked a bit in the Jason patch. Paulo did say few gameplay changes would be made, but I imagine Shinnok will get tweaked in the future.

Just please don't ovetbuff him. He has extremely good pokes, just needs a legit safe string without meter. Making 1,1,2 safe would be great.

As for Necromancer, I can honestly say mixing up between F2,2,4 or any part of that string into Flick or Hellsparks is good. Flick if they won't armor making you primarily safe except from fast pokes (F2,2 xx flick helps negate this) and hell sparks if they do decide to armor.

The only thing I will say is armor kills this variation. Nothing is truly safe except EX amulet and that's just no good for a character who does little damage and is so meter dependant.
 
C

ConsoleCombat

Noob
RM_NINfan101 said:
We will see if he gets tweaked a bit in the Jason patch. Paulo did say few gameplay changes would be made, but I imagine Shinnok will get tweaked in the future.

Just please don't overbuff him. He has extremely good pokes, just needs a legit safe string without meter. Making 1,1,2 safe would be great.

As for Necromancer, I can honestly say mixing up between F2,2,4 or any part of that string into Flick or Hellsparks is good. Flick if they won't armor making you primarily safe except from fast pokes (F2,2 xx flick helps negate this) and hell sparks if they do decide to armor.

The only thing I will say is armor kills this variation. Nothing is truly safe except EX amulet and that's just no good for a character who does little damage and is so meter dependent.
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well said. also, has @colt (pako) said if official change logs would company the adjustments?
 
E

Eji1700

Noob
For all variants:

1. The random fucking hitbox shit needs to go. I get that sometimes having a move work on some characters and not others adds depth, but this whole shoulder working on normal but not on EX is dumb as hell. It doesn't help that EX shoulder, despite looking like it may be a combo move, is mostly just a getup tool. In short, if it hits midscreen with normal shoulder, it should hit anywhere, and EX should never be WORSE than the normal move(at least when it looks fucking identical).

2. Give him something that's safe on block besides EX amulet cancels (Which as discussed elsewhere is risky). Most of the cast can punish him on block from any special cancel. This is nuts when his only decent low option requires you to buffer the special in (can't hit confirm for shit off his lows).

3. Give 3,1,2 a fucking point. There's so little he can do after it that it's almost always 100% worse than 2,2, f2,2 or 1,1,2. The only time i use it is vs people that think mimic combos, and then I do the 3,1,2 X ray combo. That should not be the only purpose of a string. ESPECIALLY on someone with only 4 strings.

4. Seriously look at his normal frame data and consider giving him something that's actually positive on block. 3,1,2 could be great here as the spacing is nice.

5. Maybe give him a real overhead. I don't think anyone thinks he needs one, and I'd like him better if he was viable without a simple one, but a solution is a solution.

6. Why are EX sparks a thing? All they seem to do is more damage in a manner that's extremely wasteful of meter since you get much more damage if you burn the last hit and combo. The fact that this character has 2 specials that do NOTHING on block when EX'd is disgusting (shoulder and sparks have identical frame data).

Necro stuff:

Dear god fix the tracking. Let us do actual combos. Every other character has a few viable ways to progress their strings, even mid screen (ok most of them). Shinnok literally has almost everything start with 1,1,2 into EX. Again 3,1,2 would be a lot better if anything fucking tracked, and f2,2,4 wouldn't suck nearly as much if shoulder worked and ANYTHING TRACKED. Maybe actually give him unblockable hand setups that don't require meter.

Bonshaper stuff:
This one feels the closest to being viable. I just think he should have something he can do after the standing reset that's a real threat. Right now if they block low they only need to worry about the throw mixup, and shinnoks throw game sucks (seriously maybe change his throw data while we're at it, he gets nothing from that thing).

Imposter stuff:

In the shinnok mirror please let mimic steal something. It's awkward and weird and makes this unquestionably the worst style for the mirror match.

Can i just ask for a grounded teleport with the same startup and teleport spot as if you did a frame perfect IA teleport? Or do I need to keep fucking up my fingers?

Honestly this style feels the weaknesses of his standard moveset the most. Mimic is NOT a move that brings much to the table outside of combos and teleport is mostly the same way. I'm fine with the mimic thing staying as a mixup rather than a combo extender, but please give him something in his frame data to compete. I find it especially funny that this one is actually worse at zoning than bone shaper as he has no full screen projectile.
 
Juggs

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
Premium Supporter
Eji1700 said:
2. Imposter stuff:

In the shinnok mirror please let mimic steal something. It's awkward and weird and makes this unquestionably the worst style for the mirror match.
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He can keep going for the Vortex in the mirror match though, ending in Mimicry.
 
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