General/Other - Shinnok Shinnok General Discussion Thread

[n9195v]

I know, but the problem is his ONLY mixup in imposter is setup into teleport, and then either njP/K or b3. The issue is that since b3 doesn't lead to any string, you MUST buffer the hellspark after the low hit, making his only mixup liable to get you punished if blocked correctly. I get we don't want safe 50/50, but in my world the ideal would be a "negative" 50/50 on block. Instead shinnok is looking at a combo punish from anyone with a teleport and some meter, and a few people who don't. It's really discouraging.

Edit- and again, this is on a skill which when done on block from b3, his best and really only low for mixups, will whiff the 3rd hit and leave you open for a full combo punish from basically the entire cast.

His mix up in imposture is am I going to grab you? Or hit you? Grab every time you trance someone you'll get them every time with that 16%. After they tech start hitting buttons and combo them.

 

[Skylight1]

no his F22 is extremly unsafe

A shame but that isn't one of the moves you should be throwing out the loop anyway, so it's all good I guess. Any moves that is plus on block though?

 

[Doombawkz]

A shame but that isn't one of the moves you should be throwing out the loop anyway, so it's all good I guess. Any moves that is plus on block though?

MB Backhand in necromancer is +5

 

[regulas]

God, its like Boneshaper Shinnok and I are just getting along so well tonight. F22, Bone Slam EX and 112 hell sparks (not original at making combos, I know), is heavenly to me. Isn't his F22 safe on block too?

I believe just the F2 alone is safe but F22 is like -20. His best bone strings are the b3,1,d2 and f3,1,d2 as they are fast far reaching and are not to hard to hitconfirm into db2 or anything else, and they are both I think like -4 on block.

 

[n9195v]

312-flick is a true block string. Pretty solid.

Imposture is probably his best because it forces you to eat grabs. End everything in trance grab adds 16% to all of his combos. So his 32% bnb is really a 48%

 

[RM_NINfan101]

I agree, but NRS doesnt seem to. Seems like a good chunk of the cast has pretty safe 50/50's. Regardless, mixing in the low special in that string from time to time will definitely be a necessary risk in bone shaper.

i agree that 50/50s shouldn't be safe but if pretty much everyone has safe 50/50s its kinda shitty when its unsafe

This is pretty much the problem and something I observed:

Shinnok's low damage and zoning output does not nearly make up for the fact that everyone in this game has teleports and/or vortexes/50-50s you have to guess on. Anytime I fight a Scorpion? I struggle, just because Scorpion doesn't need to respect anything I do. He doesn't have to. Blocking is really the only way I get him to hang himself (though Scorpion is slightly ridiculous in this game).

If anyone gets up on him and bullies him as well? Only armored move is EX shoulder, and in a game where now getting knocked down is gonna get you killed you sorta need a breaker. I often find me losing the most when I get put into the corner. Armoring an interactable sometimes is how I only get out.

Kinda sucks.

So many characters can rush you down and ignore zoning or spacing tools. In Bone Shaper I simply find F2,2 so awkward to use. If the opponent jumps, not much I can convert off of and half the time the 2 whiffs after.

Scorpion has an extremely fast raw standing overhead, way better meterless damage and if Inferno is played, gets 40 I believe into a reset for 1 bar. A teleport, a spear, and don't get me started on the Inferno demons.

Shinnok is supremely underpowered in comparison. Meterless damage is equivalent to around 22-28%, no standing raw overheads in any variation and aside from 1,1,2,3 he has no overheads except in Bone Shaper Bone Shaper (And even that is easy to see coming because it's the only one he has.) and can only do so much off a low unless in Bone Shaper where he gets the added strings. Even using meter in combos is not that great. Only way Shinnok gets really great damage is off resets from EX grab and F2,2, 1+3 in Bone Shaper, the only 50/50 he has outside of the Imposter vortex.

Necromancer is just straight up messed. Flick, Summoned Fiend and Judgement Fist all get beat by run. (You can do at least one meaty flick) If you see a run coming you can do an amulet strike, but if you just did one of the above you do not have a choice but to just hold that. I also just do not like Judgement Fist that much, I find me almost never using it and only doing so when the opponent feels confused or doesn't know the matchup on a knockdown. Most people with a character like Erron Black will just Armor Slide through and not give a single fuck. I even get counterzoned simply because their projectiles come out faster.

I actually wish (not asking for a buff) that Flick had a larger hitbox so Shinnok actually could play a zoning game. Startup on so many specials seem so slow to the point that your safest bets are hellsparks and flick and has I think only one safe string by itself in Bone Shaper. (You can make strings safe in variations not named Bone Shaper by doing amulet if they stand and block it, or EX so they have to... but that is again another bar to use.)

I really think Imposter might just be the way to go just due to the extra damage, but no, he needs some extra shit clearly. What he has is clearly not enough and if he has no overheads, shouldn't that mean his damage should be way higher/strings be more safer? Why do we have to be punished when getting confirms off of punishes and whiffs is all we really can do sometimes?

He has some nice tools, (5 frame D1 and F2,2,4 is great) but those are just my current thoughts. I don't think he's BAD, but compared to the rest of the cast, he could use some oomph. I'm not crying for buffs or anything, but I don't think anyone would disagree he needs something.

 

[badgerfan20945]

So i take it that Bone shaper is not really worth the effort? I'll admit after about 20 minutes its seems sucky. Very unsafe 50/50's with mediocre damage.

 

[RM_NINfan101]

So i take it that Bone shaper is not really worth the effort? I'll admit after about 20 minutes its seems sucky. Very unsafe 50/50's with mediocre damage.

In my personal experience the two most viable variations are Imposter and Necro. The changed normals and specials just do not do it and tbh why does Shinnok even need this variation? What weaknesses does it cover that Necromancer doesn't?

 

[nezumi1]

This is pretty much the problem and something I observed:

Shinnok's low damage and zoning output does not nearly make up for the fact that everyone in this game has teleports and/or vortexes/50-50s you have to guess on. Anytime I fight a Scorpion? I struggle, just because Scorpion doesn't need to respect anything I do. He doesn't have to. Blocking is really the only way I get him to hang himself (though Scorpion is slightly ridiculous in this game).

If anyone gets up on him and bullies him as well? Only armored move is EX shoulder, and in a game where now getting knocked down is gonna get you killed you sorta need a breaker. I often find me losing the most when I get put into the corner. Armoring an interactable sometimes is how I only get out.

Kinda sucks.

So many characters can rush you down and ignore zoning or spacing tools. In Bone Shaper I simply find F2,2 so awkward to use. If the opponent jumps, not much I can convert off of and half the time the 2 whiffs after.

Scorpion has an extremely fast raw standing overhead, way better meterless damage and if Inferno is played, gets 40 I believe into a reset for 1 bar. A teleport, a spear, and don't get me started on the Inferno demons.

Shinnok is supremely underpowered in comparison. Meterless damage is equivalent to around 22-28%, no standing raw overheads in any variation and aside from 1,1,2,3 he has no overheads except in Bone Shaper Bone Shaper (And even that is easy to see coming because it's the only one he has.) and can only do so much off a low unless in Bone Shaper where he gets the added strings. Even using meter in combos is not that great. Only way Shinnok gets really great damage is off resets from EX grab and F2,2, 1+3 in Bone Shaper, the only 50/50 he has outside of the Imposter vortex.

Necromancer is just straight up messed. Flick, Summoned Fiend and Judgement Fist all get beat by run. (You can do at least one meaty flick) If you see a run coming you can do an amulet strike, but if you just did one of the above you do not have a choice but to just hold that. I also just do not like Judgement Fist that much, I find me almost never using it and only doing so when the opponent feels confused or doesn't know the matchup on a knockdown. Most people with a character like Erron Black will just Armor Slide through and not give a single fuck. I even get counterzoned simply because their projectiles come out faster.

I actually wish (not asking for a buff) that Flick had a larger hitbox so Shinnok actually could play a zoning game. Startup on so many specials seem so slow to the point that your safest bets are hellsparks and flick and has I think only one safe string by itself in Bone Shaper. (You can make strings safe in variations not named Bone Shaper by doing amulet if they stand and block it, or EX so they have to... but that is again another bar to use.)

I really think Imposter might just be the way to go just due to the extra damage, but no, he needs some extra shit clearly. What he has is clearly not enough and if he has no overheads, shouldn't that mean his damage should be way higher/strings be more safer? Why do we have to be punished when getting confirms off of punishes and whiffs is all we really can do sometimes?

He has some nice tools, (5 frame D1 and F2,2,4 is great) but those are just my current thoughts. I don't think he's BAD, but compared to the rest of the cast, he could use some oomph. I'm not crying for buffs or anything, but I don't think anyone would disagree he needs something.

dude im totally with you. i am really into shinnok and enjoy playing him. but as a zoner i get zoned out, every teleport-based character giving me rough time. i am clearly not a good player but it feels like he got so limited tools to play with

 

[regulas]

So i take it that Bone shaper is not really worth the effort? I'll admit after about 20 minutes its seems sucky. Very unsafe 50/50's with mediocre damage.

I don't really know whats up with people playing Shin. They all seem to think imposter is fantastic and Boneshaper is garbage, yet as far as I can see it's the total opposite. The only thing Imposter really seems to do for us is extra damage, which you may have no way of using...

Boneshaper gets fast, long range, hit confrimable, safe strings, along with two notable extra punish tools (the fast blast and the sweep) that combine with hellspark to allow you to punish anything on the screen and even combo off it. He can play mean footsies with his crazy normals range 9assisted by the constant risk of me punishing everything), as well as instantly turn anything -7 on block into a combo punish. Even if you can't punish they will be forced to block and if they don't (as oft happens) again combo. I think Cassie is one of the only chars in the entire game that can possibly beat you for speed with a true string. It's also the only form that really gets a tangible mix-up (unsafe alas).

 

[Eji1700]

Well first and formost I do have to say I believe that Imposter is not usable as air teleport is just not a good enough tool compared to the shaper strings or necro zoning and that mimmick not being able to directly combo off of is just sigh... Imposter got the Kotal Blood treatment. He can get high theoretical damage so they nerfed him to the ground.

Secondly stop using specials after strings. You don't have to. They are all so unsafe that other then flick you want to specialise in punishing, which means you read a jump or dash or block an unsafe string.

I know this, and about the "throw mixup" posted earlier. I'm pointing out that unlike many other characters who have viable zoning options or safe/hit confirmable strings for their damage, shinnok has one of the least safe projectiles in the game and cannot hitcofirm into combo's off a low, and instead must commit to the aformentioned unsafe projectile.

The thing that annoys me about this is that it's not like he's got any obvious strengths to that justify this sort of risk/reward ratio (and for the record the "hit or throw" mixup is a joke on a character like shinnok who's got 0 advantages in that range, and really doesn't want to be that close most of the time). Sparks is a good antiair that he can confirm into damage, so that's nice, but beyond that I really feel like there's nothing he does that someone else doesn't do much better.

 

[M2Dave]

This is pretty much the problem and something I observed:

Shinnok's low damage and zoning output does not nearly make up for the fact that everyone in this game has teleports and/or vortexes/50-50s you have to guess on. Anytime I fight a Scorpion? I struggle, just because Scorpion doesn't need to respect anything I do. He doesn't have to. Blocking is really the only way I get him to hang himself (though Scorpion is slightly ridiculous in this game).

If anyone gets up on him and bullies him as well? Only armored move is EX shoulder, and in a game where now getting knocked down is gonna get you killed you sorta need a breaker. I often find me losing the most when I get put into the corner. Armoring an interactable sometimes is how I only get out.

Kinda sucks.

So many characters can rush you down and ignore zoning or spacing tools. In Bone Shaper I simply find F2,2 so awkward to use. If the opponent jumps, not much I can convert off of and half the time the 2 whiffs after.

Scorpion has an extremely fast raw standing overhead, way better meterless damage and if Inferno is played, gets 40 I believe into a reset for 1 bar. A teleport, a spear, and don't get me started on the Inferno demons.

Shinnok is supremely underpowered in comparison. Meterless damage is equivalent to around 22-28%, no standing raw overheads in any variation and aside from 1,1,2,3 he has no overheads except in Bone Shaper Bone Shaper (And even that is easy to see coming because it's the only one he has.) and can only do so much off a low unless in Bone Shaper where he gets the added strings. Even using meter in combos is not that great. Only way Shinnok gets really great damage is off resets from EX grab and F2,2, 1+3 in Bone Shaper, the only 50/50 he has outside of the Imposter vortex.

Necromancer is just straight up messed. Flick, Summoned Fiend and Judgement Fist all get beat by run. (You can do at least one meaty flick) If you see a run coming you can do an amulet strike, but if you just did one of the above you do not have a choice but to just hold that. I also just do not like Judgement Fist that much, I find me almost never using it and only doing so when the opponent feels confused or doesn't know the matchup on a knockdown. Most people with a character like Erron Black will just Armor Slide through and not give a single fuck. I even get counterzoned simply because their projectiles come out faster.

I actually wish (not asking for a buff) that Flick had a larger hitbox so Shinnok actually could play a zoning game. Startup on so many specials seem so slow to the point that your safest bets are hellsparks and flick and has I think only one safe string by itself in Bone Shaper. (You can make strings safe in variations not named Bone Shaper by doing amulet if they stand and block it, or EX so they have to... but that is again another bar to use.)

I really think Imposter might just be the way to go just due to the extra damage, but no, he needs some extra shit clearly. What he has is clearly not enough and if he has no overheads, shouldn't that mean his damage should be way higher/strings be more safer? Why do we have to be punished when getting confirms off of punishes and whiffs is all we really can do sometimes?

He has some nice tools, (5 frame D1 and F2,2,4 is great) but those are just my current thoughts. I don't think he's BAD, but compared to the rest of the cast, he could use some oomph. I'm not crying for buffs or anything, but I don't think anyone would disagree he needs something.

You have described the character's weaknesses perfectly. You are too kind, though. Shinnok sucks. Of course he ought to receive various buffs. I have seen the flick whiff... not on a running opponent... not on a dashing opponent... yet on a walking opponent, which is unacceptable. Almost all of his special moves have either no tracking whatsoever or they are laughably unsafe. As you said correctly, this game is apparently dominated by mobility and 50/50 mix ups. So you either need a tool that says "stop moving, fool" such as Sub Zero's ice clone or you yourself need to be doing the running and 50/50 mix ups. At the moment, Shinnok cannot do either.

 

[RM Jonnitti]

You have described the character's weaknesses perfectly. You are too kind, though. Shinnok sucks. Of course he ought to receive various buffs. I have seen the flick whiff... not on a running opponent... not on a dashing opponent... yet on a walking opponent, which is unacceptable. Almost all of his special moves have either no tracking whatsoever or they are laughably unsafe. As you said correctly, this game is apparently dominated by mobility and 50/50 mix ups. So you either need a tool that says "stop moving, fool" such as Sub Zero's ice clone or you yourself need to be doing the running and 50/50 mix ups. At the moment, Shinnok cannot do either.

i feel like as of now if you want to play shinnok, you have to play completely based on reactions, which is asking a lot due to how much damage he does. if they fix his frames he can be an actual contender. IMO all he needs is f22 to be safe and hellsparks to be safer when all 3 hits connect. maybe punishable by slides, but totally not kung lao dive kick, thats just ridiculous. its just sad that i haven't been this excited about a character in so long but winning with him is asking for so much. i honestly think his toolset is really good but they just didn't give him the frames to be competent. if you are truly an amazing play in neutral, you can win with this character if his frame didnt suck ass

 

[Malec]

i feel like as of now if you want to play shinnok, you have to play completely based on reactions, which is asking a lot due to how much damage he does....
if you are truly an amazing play in neutral, you can win with this character if his frame didnt suck ass

or you could just pick another character if you have this amazing neutral game and reactions and DESTROY your opponent instead of just standing a chance xD
I am usually a character loyalist, but it is week one and I am not planning on playing one of the worst characters in the game AGAIN, just because I like his character design. I will check out other characters I am interested in and hope Shinnok get some changes in the future.

 

[RM_NINfan101]

I do appreciate @General M2Dave elaborating more on what I said. I will still likely play him but I will also do me a favor and look for another character in the meantime.

I still like Shinnok for characters such as Ferra/Torr and Kano.

 

[Wemfs]

Think I'll jump ship to another character until Shinnok gets the buffs he needs.

Seems like every character I like ends up being crap. ugh..

 

[RM_NINfan101]

Think I'll jump ship to another character until Shinnok gets the buffs he needs.

Seems like every character I like ends up being crap. ugh..

I know the feeling man but there is something good I feel that came out of this:

Clearly Netherrealm will patch him, but don't stop playing him. I feel playing Shinnok actually made my fundamentals better.

 

[legion666]

Ok, everyone let's cry as loud as we can for buffs!!!!!!! If we are lucky enough we will end up like Bane)))

 

[Malec]

Ok, everyone let's cry as loud as we can for buffs!!!!!!! If we are lucky enough we will end up like Bane)))

Is NRS reading this?

 

[legion666]

Is NRS reading this?

Not everything but I am sure they look at some stuff at TYM before making changes)

 

[regulas]

Shrug, it does help that people don't realise they shouldn't be jumping ever in a million years against shin, but so far I've been doing quite well with shin boneshaper.

The only thing I could ever want would probably be any special whatsoever safe on block, otherwise I'm reasonably content with the lot that I have for now. It migh change when people learn the match-up better, but for now punishing is really easy and it's what shin excels at.

 

[Helter Skelter]

I'm actually having fun with character as it stands, but do think that his frame data needs revising. I can't actually see myself not using this character full time nonetheless.

Things Shinnok would benefit from:

-Hell Sparks to be safe on block if the last fireball hits. NOT advantage just safe enough to not be punished.

It's a zoning tool that opponents should have to work there way past. He shouldn't be punished for managing his personal space.

-The Hell Spark after his MB Charging Tackle to come out if the tackle is blocked and for the fireball itself to be MB on hit for an additional meter and become a launcher.

-Lastly, dramatically increase the startup and make his 22 string hit Overhead, Mid.

Revise Necromancer all you want.

 

[Ojpaxton]

Last hit of hell spark can be punished by most char, the enemy has to be good and aware that he/ she can punish, which will be learned in time.

 

[Juggs]

I hate asking for buffs this early, but Shinnok is fun, but he can't compete with the rest of the cast right now. All he has are gimmicks, once people figure them out, he has very limited options.

Boneshaper I still believe is his best Variation. B3 1 d2 being -5 on block means it's safe vs most of the cast. And you can create an Aquman like mixup canceling into low scoop. Problem is that it's a gamble, and low scoop is like -100 on block. The f22 throw standing reset isn't good when the only mixup after it is throw, go low, or block.

His zoning is terrible. In all variations. If he actually could do moves without feeling like he's drunk and underwater, maybe he could zone some people out. Like in Boneshaper if the unblockable was like 29 startup frames instead of 39, and had like 15 frames of recovery instead of 23, maybe it would be decent.

All he needs is less start up and less recovery, and he would be playable. Right now, he's almost definitely LAST on the tier list.

 

[regulas]

And I kid you not, right now dark beam says it's -549, and active for 601 frames, lmao wtf.
.

That means that the blast is on the screen for a total of 601 frames, whereas the recovery time is 601-549 or 52 frames (so on wiff).