Match-up Discussion Raven Matchup Discussion

[Dulllyanna]

She doesn't need buffs. Lift = aa

I love doing this and seeing some characters jump over it for a full combo, whether it's preemptive or spaced out (It's too slow to be used as a reliable reaction AA).

Her demon stance is fine, if they block pillar then most characters can dash in immediately and safely block demon db2. df2 catches that obv but some characters can punish it depending on range and matchup, otherwise they can be smart and just wait or walk forward a bit before blocking and suffer the chip to get in. Once they do it's not hard to wreck her shit her shit since her backdash is shit, her wakeups are shit and if she wants anything off of d1 she has to commit to unsafe cancels. It's not unjustified, but people need to compare that to characters like Aquaman and BA who have much stronger defensive options in addition to strong spacing games before saying she's retarded and would be broken with a minor buff or two.

Raven's "fine", but from my exp using characters like BA, saying she needs nerfs is laughable. This game really doesn't need more characters with shitty or barely relevant traits.

WoundCowboy: If we're going to nerf her trait, why not Superman, Doomsday, Black Adam, Aquaman, Green Lantern and Batman's? Not like they have to "earn" theirs. Note that I'm not saying this should be done, but I think asking for nerfs on a zoning trait that forces you to be careful against a character that lives and dies on zoning and keeping the opponent out is a bit silly.

 

[Kiko]

Glad I didn't have to explain it. All in all, raven is meh... Only real choobs get curb stomped.

 

[Rickyraws]

Glad I didn't have to explain it. All in all, raven is meh... Only real choobs get curb stomped.

I guess Sabin is a real choob then.

*Sits back and watches, as this cannot end well*

 

[Kiko]

I guess Sabin is a real choob then.

*Sits back and watches, as this cannot end well*

You misunderstand, raven is gimmicky, which means there are multiple ways to exploit the holes in her non existent close range combat.

So yes if Sabin is getting cuuuuurb stomped by raven..

Well maybe you should tell him to stop playing with Lobo.

 

[Rickyraws]

He used GL. Gimmicky=/= unable to be good with fundamentals. Ken masters

 

[Kiko]

He used GL. Gimmicky=/= unable to be good with fundamentals. Ken masters

They get you only so far, think of as a player, how many options up close superman, ba, aqua man *and the list goes on* have compared to Raven.

And I get it she can zone almost as well as sinestro but what about anyone that can apply pressure well?

Counter pick

 

[Rickyraws]

GL vs Raven is unanimously 5-5 according to the GL forums and the Raven forums. Both have up close tools, both have ranged tools. No one's claiming Raven's an up close powerhouse. I'm claiming Sabin got convincingly and controversially beaten by one. He was unhappy about a certain match that wasn't on camera I believe, and there was some salt, but long story short, you don't have to be a noob to get out done by a good Raven. At least, as we've seen. Gimmicks are all the rave and all, but no one says she has to use 'em. Teleport is almost exclusively a gimmick. But it becomes a scary tool when a smart player knows how to use it well.

 

[kabelfritz]

sabin hated the characcter from the beginning on so maybe he takes this loss extra hard.

 

[Villest1]

Meh I agree and disagree with you. I'll help you out when I'm in San Jose. It's not as full proof and safe and shit as you think but it's still retarded good and for the most part yeah you can't move when she's in demon stance.

Can't you safely dash in after a blocked pillar/grab?

 

[cR WoundCowboy]

I love doing this and seeing some characters jump over it for a full combo, whether it's preemptive or spaced out (It's too slow to be used as a reliable reaction AA).

Her demon stance is fine, if they block pillar then most characters can dash in immediately and safely block demon db2. df2 catches that obv but some characters can punish it depending on range and matchup, otherwise they can be smart and just wait or walk forward a bit before blocking and suffer the chip to get in. Once they do it's not hard to wreck her shit her shit since her backdash is shit, her wakeups are shit and if she wants anything off of d1 she has to commit to unsafe cancels. It's not unjustified, but people need to compare that to characters like Aquaman and BA who have much stronger defensive options in addition to strong spacing games before saying she's retarded and would be broken with a minor buff or two.

Raven's "fine", but from my exp using characters like BA, saying she needs nerfs is laughable. This game really doesn't need more characters with shitty or barely relevant traits.

WoundCowboy: If we're going to nerf her trait, why not Superman, Doomsday, Black Adam, Aquaman, Green Lantern and Batman's? Not like they have to "earn" theirs. Note that I'm not saying this should be done, but I think asking for nerfs on a zoning trait that forces you to be careful against a character that lives and dies on zoning and keeping the opponent out is a bit silly.

Superman, Green Lantern, Black Adam, and Doomsday all have to be smart when they have their trait. Nothing is guaranteed, except the 12% orbs when Black Adam gets in and that is if he doesn't get hit. Raven gets free chip and essentially stops some characters from moving.

 

[Kiko]

Superman, Green Lantern, Black Adam, and Doomsday all have to be smart when they have their trait. Nothing is guaranteed, except the 12% orbs when Black Adam gets in and that is if he doesn't get hit. Raven gets free chip and essentially stops some characters from moving.

I agree but what most people aren't getting is that raven's entire game is based off her trait. The developers idea was to make her sick in that mode, and she kinda is

Raven without her trait is pretty average, low tier average. But other than that, taking into account game play and style, if you want someone with a great trait and just-as-good everything else, just pick Superman/Aquaman/Lantern/Adam.

 

[Blind_Ducky]

Can't you safely dash in after a blocked pillar/grab?

Soul crush = -17 so yes. Pillar is 0 so most characters have to respect the soul crush. If they move at all they eat it. Some characters can jump to avoid it but then they risk eating 39% from a mb aa pillar. If the opponent respects all this they get pushed back full screen and can lose about a quarter of their health bar IN CHIP in one use of the trait. and don't forget the ass load of meter you build. So against a smart raven a lot of characters are locked down.

 

[Dulllyanna]

Superman, Green Lantern, Black Adam, and Doomsday all have to be smart when they have their trait. Nothing is guaranteed, except the 12% orbs when Black Adam gets in and that is if he doesn't get hit. Raven gets free chip and essentially stops some characters from moving.

I'm kinda surprised you didn't list Batman there, if he isn't cycling bats properly then he loses his pressure which is a huge part of his game. The important thing about Raven though is that it makes her only real mixup much more threatening and forces actual commitment out of them, and activating it safely in a lot of situations plays off her main game which is establishing respect. Without it as is she'd be thoroughly mediocre against patient players that know the matchup.

Villest1 After a pillar is blocked they can dash and block if Raven does db2. df2 is fast enough to catch them if they do that, but obviously it's bad on block and even if they can't punish it on block then that's absolutely a free dash in on its own. That's where the mixup comes from if they don't want to take a ton of chip.

 

[Shonuff]

When did this become a buff Raven thread? That is completely unnecessary as any experienced Raven player will tell you.

There are some great Raven Grundy matches at the beginning here: http://www.twitch.tv/crosscountertv/b/409709685

The player uses a lot of good tech against grapplers, using b23 to go over throws. F2233 to blow up wakeup armor. Nice trait use, ect.

Against doomsday I'm probably going to counter pick. I can't deal with his offense so I think I'll have to pick up a rushdown character.

You too huh? I thought I was the only one. Yeah Doomsday is a big problem, he can just spam rushdown attacks all day, nothing like Bane. I may have to counter pick when fighting doomsday. My second is batgirl, probably a good choice in this case.

 

[Vogue]

You too huh? I thought I was the only one. Yeah Doomsday is a big problem, he can just spam rushdown attacks all day, nothing like Bane. I may have to counter pick when fighting doomsday. My second is batgirl, probably a good choice in this case.

I went down the matchups in the game and realized that with Batgirl and Raven I absolutely have an answer for the entire roster. Some characters you really want to rush and not let them start an offense which is where Batgirl excels . Characters you want to keep out and away all day you pick Raven. Seriously go down he matchups and check.

 

[AugustAPC]

Can't you safely dash in after a blocked pillar/grab?

Yes, as long as you anticipate a follow up after pillar or projectile. With Raven sometimes it's block twice then dash. You can move when Raven is in demon stance. No character is locked down. You just have to be smart about it. Inch during pillar spam, dash or punish crushes and grabs.

 

[Sami]

Why the fuck are random people (who seemingly know nothing about Raven's trait) being @tagged for a discussion that will serve no purpose and achieve nothing? This is one of the few character forums that isn't packed with screaming retard balance discussions. Please keep it that way.

 

[Blind_Ducky]

Why the fuck are random people (who seemingly know nothing about Raven's trait) being @tagged for a discussion that will serve no purpose and achieve nothing? This is one of the few character forums that isn't packed with screaming retard balance discussions. Please keep it that way.

Because they've all played my Raven and have seen why she doesn't need buffs. Btw Cowboy just for 2nd at ufgt, pretty sure he's not a random person. They know more about raven and her trait than most people in this forum.

 

[cR WoundCowboy]

Because they've all played my Raven and have seen why she doesn't need buffs. Btw Cowboy just for 2nd at ufgt, pretty sure he's not a random person. They know more about raven and her trait than most people in this forum.

Whatta u mean bro? I'm just a filthy casual trying to lay down the knowledge. People like Kiko and Sami are on a way higher level.

P.S. Anyone that thinks Raven needs buffs has no idea what they are talking about.

 

[Blind_Ducky]

ANYONE who thinks she needs buffs, if you have psn add chemical_venom and I'd be happy to blow you up and if you're not on psn ill see you at evo.

 

[Vogue]

I definitely agree she doesn't need buffs! She seems incredibly balanced, I have no idea why that conversation started.

 

[Sami]

Whatta u mean bro? I'm just a filthy casual trying to lay down the knowledge. People like Kiko and Sami are on a way higher level.

Random as in this player has seemingly no interest in Raven and was tagged out of no-where, not random as in no-names. Also, if we're going on the basis of just because a character beat you means they require no buffs, then Jax is S tier in mortal kombat OH YES I WENT THERE

The point of my comment was to get crying balance posts out of this thread (and ideally, this forum section). Buff suggestions shouldn't be in the match-up discussion to begin with, let alone tagging on more people to hitch a ride on the whaambulance.

edit: and because this will probably generate more follow-up posts any way, it's probably best if I just state right now that I don't want any buffs or nerfs for Raven. Character is solid with viable strengths and punishable weaknesses.

 

[cR WoundCowboy]

Random as in this player has seemingly no interest in Raven and was tagged out of no-where, not random as in no-names. Also, if we're going on the basis of just because a character beat you means they require no buffs, then Jax is S tier in mortal kombat OH YES I WENT THERE

The point of my comment was to get crying balance posts out of this thread (and ideally, this forum section). Buff suggestions shouldn't be in the match-up discussion to begin with, let alone tagging on more people to hitch a ride on the whaambulance.

Lol yea, it is common knowledge that Jax is totally broken and braindead against most high hitbox characters in MK9. And why is he broken? Because stupid people said that he needed buffs in the beginning of the game's life. I don't want to see the same thing happen with Raven. I am tagged because I am one of the few that has experienced what Raven is capable of.

 

[Sprint]

Soul crush = -17 so yes. Pillar is 0 so most characters have to respect the soul crush. If they move at all they eat it. Some characters can jump to avoid it but then they risk eating 39% from a mb aa pillar. If the opponent respects all this they get pushed back full screen and can lose about a quarter of their health bar IN CHIP in one use of the trait. and don't forget the ass load of meter you build. So against a smart raven a lot of characters are locked down.

Bullshit. The maximum possible chip is 20% from 10 consecutive pillars. This never happens.

If someone is smart they'll walk forward or backward slightly after blocking a pillar and stop right in the gap between pillar ranges. As long as they don't overdo walking forwards then Soul Crush will not punish. One of the pillar distances will hit, but it is impossible to know which one because you don't know exactly where the opponent is going to stop walking. This alone halves Raven's chip output.

Also Soul Crush is not -17.
I'm guessing you're basing that on Aquaman's db2 being listed as 18f and not punishing it as a reversal, but that doesn't hit on frame 18, and reversals don't behave normally.

 

[TarkatanDentist]

Expecting to get as high as 20% in chip damage is unrealistic, but double figures is definitely achievable. And that's the worst case scenario, and assuming you don't actually connect with any attacks.

Sure, your opponent CAN walk slightly to avoid pillars, but Raven can also maneuver herself to realign the pillars and keep them guessing, OR she can try and catch them with Event Horizon - the ball is still very much in her park.

Also Close Negative Mass considerably improves Raven's close-range game, because she can cancel strings into it, getting extra chip and leaving herself at no disadvantage on block. Then you can often go for a throw and keep tossing pillars at them.