Strategy - Sub-Zero Predator V Sub Zero - MKX's First Death

[I GOT HANDS]

I'm not arguing the main point that Predator is a better SZ. He may very well be.

But the option of EX slide on wakeup is not a "bit better". This is a game where 1 superman will most likely be the end of the round for a character like Predator. That is a big deal. So if Raiden beats SZ 7-3 or whatever, (which is debatable IMO, I think the match is closer to 5.5-4.5), if you think you are just gonna switch to Predator and magically overcome this matchup you're crazy. Predator loses to Raiden a lot worse than SZ does specifically because of the massive difference in their wakeup options.

EX slide is a real wakeup, it's something that must be respected. Predator's Scimitar Slam is an absolute joke and I don't have to respect it at all, it might as well not even exist when I have him in the corner.

It's not really debatable, if you are going anywhere close to 5/5 with a Sub Zero opponent, it's because your opponent is much better than you. We are talking about putting a mid tier character against a top tier one, who by design is an excellent counter to the character. You CAN debate it if you have logic that supports otherwise, but there's a reason EVO commentators described Raiden as one of Sub-Zeros hardest match ups multiple times, and just calling it "debatable" does not make it so, I think it's much more likely you are just playing against Ice Clone wrong.


But regardless, your logic doesn't really do much to prove the point you are making. Predator loses in a match up that is already 7-3 against Sub? That's not a weakness to Predator in comparison to Sub then, they both lose the same match up, let's look at what they do differently. That being said, I think I prefer Predator against Raiden, I'll take my chances with the lack of wake up, in return for actual strengths in this match up elsewhere, as opposed to playing a character against another character who can basically do everything I can do against him but better, and much more, and has the kit to practically invalidate Clone, the one tool that makes up for what Sub does worse in other match ups unfortunately does not work well at all against him.

 

[infamy23]

Yeah you're right, Tom just overcame a 7-3 match against one of the best Raidens in the world because he's so godlike.

You are the one playing the match wrong, not me. Listen to UltraDavid's commentary whenever SZ is on screen so you can get some perspective from someone who actually understands fighting games.

Just because I have ways around clone does not mean SZ loses the neutral to Raiden. It's only 7-3 against braindead SZ players who just throw clone out mindlessly in situations where it does nothing for them.

 

[Suntan Superman]

Yeah you're right, Tom just overcame a 7-3 match against one of the best Raidens in the world because he's so godlike.

You are the one playing the match wrong, not me. Listen to UltraDavid's commentary whenever SZ is on screen so you can get some perspective from someone who actually understands fighting games.

Just because I have ways around clone does not mean SZ loses the neutral to Raiden. It's only 7-3 against braindead SZ players who just throw clone out mindlessly in situations where it does nothing for them.

nope!!

 

[I GOT HANDS]

Unbreakable doesn't have to deal with Liu Kang's ridiculous chip, also Liu Kang has bad defense which makes Unbreakable's lack of offense not as bad in this MU.

Unbreakable does seem to have the perfect tool to deal with Kang on paper. There is no mix-up to get through the aura and that takes away one of Lius strengths in pressure. However, there will be gaps when Aura is down and I wonder if Liu can just overwhelm during the gaps, while making good use of throw during the times Aura is up. It's not like Unbreakable has any massive threat options in the way of damage, and the overhead half of his 50/50 will ALWAYS be punished by Liu on block for a lot more than what it would net, so the risk on this is even higher than the return. Unbreakable is pretty crappy and Liu is pretty strong, I'm just wondering if the extra mileage that Aura gets in this match up is enough to even out that gap and even swing it Sub's way.

 

[I GOT HANDS]

Yeah you're right, Tom just overcame a 7-3 match against one of the best Raidens in the world because he's so godlike.

You are the one playing the match wrong, not me. Listen to UltraDavid's commentary whenever SZ is on screen so you can get some perspective from someone who actually understands fighting games.

Just because I have ways around clone does not mean SZ loses the neutral to Raiden. It's only 7-3 against braindead SZ players who just throw clone out mindlessly in situations where it does nothing for them.

Dizzy played a great game, but Tom outplayed his opponent. It's that simple. There was a reason that was so hype. If you can't recognise or appreciate that then you are lying to yourself.

After this post I would love for you to upload some footage of your matches against a Sub-Zero that shows the match up is even because of the characters, and not because you aren't taking advantage of opportunities.

If you can't do that, or even give any logic explaining how/why Raiden goes 5/5 with a character whose toolkit he LITERALLY counters AND outclasses in practically every way in this match up, then we don't really have a debate or a discussion do we, we just have you claiming that everyone else is wrong including EVO commentators AND players, based on absolutely nothing than your empty statements. If you need me to explain why this match up is bad for Sub I can do so, but this is pretty common knowledge at this point, and as a Raiden player who feels confident enough to discuss game knowledge about Sub I'm sure it's nothing you haven't read before, so I think the ball is in your court to prove it otherwise. But if you need me to write out the reasons why, I can.

 

[Crimson Panther]

I've been grinding this out with @RM Crimson Panther I'm not sure it's death per say but it isn't looking great atm.

Sub loses that MU but it's not as bad as Kobu Tanya versus Predator....

(Predator loses) @RunwayMafia

 

[infamy23]

Don't bother. I'm well aware of why people think the match is bad, and I disagree. This thread isn't the place to discuss it, and to be honest I don't care that much because in time I will be proven right.

This community is habitually dead wrong about a lot of things tier wise and matchup wise, and there is mountains of evidence to support that since the game's release.

A prime example is Pig saying that Kenshi's buffs were a gift from the heavens, and EVERYONE in the f'ing community agreeing with him without even taking the time to assess the buffs for themselves.

7 weeks later, we have Pig in a Tremor thread saying that he "must have been drinking too much of the silly juice", because Balanced Kenshi is still garbage.

But if you go back to the day the buffs were announced, I stated in the Kenshi forum that they did nothing to address his problems as a character. Of course nobody listens because I'm not a known player. Such is life.

Just because everyone on TYM thinks something, does not mean it's even close to being true. Raiden vs GM Sub is not 7-3, not even close. If you believe that, then you don't know what a real 7-3 matchup actually looks like.

 

[Deleted member 9158]

Predator is gonna get nerfed, calm down.

 

[GAV]

Predator is the best in the game. He's eclipsed Kung Lao in my mind as the best. He's as good as pre-patch Tanya was, IMO.

 

[GAV]

Don't bother. I'm well aware of why people think the match is bad, and I disagree. This thread isn't the place to discuss it, and to be honest I don't care that much because in time I will be proven right.

This community is habitually dead wrong about a lot of things tier wise and matchup wise, and there is mountains of evidence to support that since the game's release.

A prime example is Pig saying that Kenshi's buffs were a gift from the heavens, and EVERYONE in the f'ing community agreeing with him without even taking the time to assess the buffs for themselves.

7 weeks later, we have Pig in a Tremor thread saying that he "must have been drinking too much of the silly juice", because Balanced Kenshi is still garbage.

But if you go back to the day the buffs were announced, I stated in the Kenshi forum that they did nothing to address his problems as a character. Of course nobody listens because I'm not a known player. Such is life.

Just because everyone on TYM thinks something, does not mean it's even close to being true. Raiden vs GM Sub is not 7-3, not even close. If you believe that, then you don't know what a real 7-3 matchup actually looks like.

Those changes did make Kenshi much better. They moved him from low tier to mid tier.

 

[iVital]

I honestly don't see the point of having a variation system if you're willing to take the time in development to ensure that all of them are tournament viable, because before launch it was preached through interviews that variations were designed to destroy counter-picking with character, which sounded cool on paper, but in reality is failing miserably.

Of course there will always be the select few characters and variations who are overshadowed by other, but it's unacceptable that any variation is completely useless in any match up. I was expecting this considering the balance decisions of Injustice and MK9 combined. Amazing ideas for character designs, but poor execution as developers.

 

[C88 Zombieekiler]

Unbreakable doesn't have to deal with Liu Kang's ridiculous chip, also Liu Kang has bad defense which makes Unbreakable's lack of offense not as bad in this MU.

sub has to get in liu kang does like 15% more damage except in the corner you still have a true blockstring for 3 bits of stamina and he has the flying kick wakeup which is safe, liu in ff also has a parry so its bad for sub lol

 

[I GOT HANDS]

Don't bother. I'm well aware of why people think the match is bad, and I disagree. This thread isn't the place to discuss it, and to be honest I don't care that much because in time I will be proven right.

This community is habitually dead wrong about a lot of things tier wise and matchup wise, and there is mountains of evidence to support that since the game's release.

A prime example is Pig saying that Kenshi's buffs were a gift from the heavens, and EVERYONE in the f'ing community agreeing with him without even taking the time to assess the buffs for themselves.

7 weeks later, we have Pig in a Tremor thread saying that he "must have been drinking too much of the silly juice", because Balanced Kenshi is still garbage.

But if you go back to the day the buffs were announced, I stated in the Kenshi forum that they did nothing to address his problems as a character. Of course nobody listens because I'm not a known player. Such is life.

Just because everyone on TYM thinks something, does not mean it's even close to being true. Raiden vs GM Sub is not 7-3, not even close. If you believe that, then you don't know what a real 7-3 matchup actually looks like.

Hmmmm well I can agree with you on that, "majority agrees" is a terrible argument and I shouldn't be using it, the majority on here has been wrong countless times before (and anywhere really, the whole world used to think the planet was flat until we level'ed up and learnt the meta a bit better).

However, that's not the sole argument driving the strength of my statements, there is a lot of tried and proven reasoning as to how and why Raiden counters and beats Sub-Zero, one occasion of one good player losing to another good player and getting outplayed, is no more relevant than the "majority rules" argument.

So let's step aside from both these things for a second and let me ask you. Exactly what is it that Sub can do to make this match an even one? Raiden has a better, faster, harder hitting 50/50 anywhere on screen, he also has the options to spend meter on it for much more damage than Sub can get. He has better normals, better strings, better NJP, and the block pressure isn't even COMPARABLE. So let's look at what Sub does have that Raiden didn't, Ice Clone, which is punishable by Raiden ANYWHERE on screen even sometimes when Sub has a frame advantage while doing it, with better rewards on the punish the closer he is. Even if the clone is already out after a knockdown set up, Raiden has multiple tools for different situations that just don't give a fuck about Clone, including normals and strings that reach right through the clone, entirely safely, as well as multiple specials. This and all the other tools he has on top of what Sub has, I just don't understand - exactly what logic supports this being a 5/5? I'm open minded here and thoroughly willing to be convinced, but as it stands I just can't see it, and I have STUDIED this match up, from both sides. Do you have any counter logic to contribute? How does Sub play around this?

 

[M2Dave]

My issue with the community and Tremor was that the community themselves built Tremor as a zoning character BEFORE HE WAS RELEASED, they came up with this idea themselves, and when he couldn't zone, he was wrote off, thats my issue, he isn't a zoning character, not sure if he ever will be unless he is buffed in a patch.

Tremor's move list was leaked almost three weeks before the official release. People identified one full screen unblockable attack, one short-ranged projectile, and three long-ranged projectiles as universal special moves. The logical assumption was Tremor was going to be a zoning character in some way, shape, or form, but unfortunately he fits no character archetype. The character is so abysmal players are still uncertain about the best way to use him.

Speaking of DLC, Predator is only two weeks older than Tremor in terms of the release date. You have apparently acquired adequate knowledge of Predator to presume he entirely invalidates Sub Zero in all variations while simultaneously you know that Tremor has potential in Crystalline. I actually do not question your knowledge, only your hypocrisy. You tell me I am wrong about Tremor, a character who is one week old, but you state that Sub Zero is invalidated by Predator, a character who is three weeks old.

I would also like to know how you keep a positive image with some of this bullshit that you post. Let us be serious here. If Tom Brady had created this thread, a lot of posts would have been malicious. If I had created a thread that claimed Kano is officially "dead" and invalidated by Predator, one person would suggest I commit suicide, at least three haters would demand I be excluded from the Kombat Tomb Podcast, and countless others would state I only want "broken" zoning.

 

[infamy23]

Hmmmm well I can agree with you on that, "majority agrees" is a terrible argument and I shouldn't be using it, the majority on here has been wrong countless times before (and anywhere really, the whole world used to think the planet was flat until we level'ed up and learnt the meta a bit better).

However, that's not the sole argument driving the strength of my statements, there is a lot of tried and proven reasoning as to how and why Raiden counters and beats Sub-Zero, one occasion of one good player losing to another good player and getting outplayed, is no more relevant than the "majority rules" argument.

So let's step aside from both these things for a second and let me ask you. Exactly what is it that Sub can do to make this match an even one? Raiden has a better, faster, harder hitting 50/50 anywhere on screen, he also has the options to spend meter on it for much more damage than Sub can get. He has better normals, better strings, better NJP, and the block pressure isn't even COMPARABLE. So let's look at what Sub does have that Raiden didn't, Ice Clone, which is punishable by Raiden ANYWHERE on screen even sometimes when Sub has a frame advantage while doing it, with better rewards on the punish the closer he is. Even if the clone is already out after a knockdown set up, Raiden has multiple tools for different situations that just don't give a fuck about Clone, including normals and strings that reach right through the clone, entirely safely, as well as multiple specials. This and all the other tools he has on top of what Sub has, I just don't understand - exactly what logic supports this being a 5/5? I'm open minded here and thoroughly willing to be convinced, but as it stands I just can't see it, and I have STUDIED this match up, from both sides. Do you have any counter logic to contribute? How does Sub play around this?

If you really want me to break down my logic, I'll end up writing 10 pages of shit here and you'll most likely end up saying "let's agree to disagree" so it's just not worth it.

To keep it simple, what I will suggest is that you go and look at some matchups that have proven to be 7-3 over years of meta development and hundreds of documented high level matches.

Start off with Guile vs Bison in pre-Ultra SF4.

Do you have any idea how hard this is for Bison? When a Bison player sees his opponent pick Guile in tournament, he might as well just forfeit the match. Hundreds of documented tournament matches between these 2 characters has overwhelmingly shown that Guile destroys Bison unless the Bison player makes several immaculate reads in a row or is just a way better player than his opponent.

I dare you to find an example of Dieminion or Nuckledu losing to Bison in a tournament.

Even a HORRIBLE match like this, is considered 7-3, and a lot of people put it at 6-4.

To say that SZ has a comparably hard time against Raiden is just silly, and the fact that Tom beat Dizzy is actually pretty significant in this argument because as I said, you won't find any examples of a top 3 Guile losing to a mediocre Bison player throughout 6 years of SF4 tournament history.

 

[Tokiwartoothxdk]

Yeah you're right, Tom just overcame a 7-3 match against one of the best Raidens in the world because he's so godlike.

You are the one playing the match wrong, not me. Listen to UltraDavid's commentary whenever SZ is on screen so you can get some perspective from someone who actually understands fighting games.

Just because I have ways around clone does not mean SZ loses the neutral to Raiden. It's only 7-3 against braindead SZ players who just throw clone out mindlessly in situations where it does nothing for them.

please stop

 

[KH_Seraph]

At the beginning of the game, this has potential to work, but as we developed in the community along with the recent patches and no attention to Sub Zero, this no longer works and is arguably the worst variation in the game (next to Metallic).

This is a lie. Metallic is no where near as bad as Dualist Liu kang at the moment (in respect to other character's variations). Metallic can restand opponents and dash cancel out of db1 mid-pressure. Aftershock is probably Tremor's worst variation right now.

 

[XxTheGoblinX]

I realized this the other night when I fought Sonicfox's Hunter Predator Against my grandmaster. He made predator look top tier

 

[Mighty Durpyena]

Guys stop, Predator's getting nerfed lol

 

[ChaosTheory]

Predator's Trap stays on block. Is this another bug that will be removed soon?

Stuff like this is why I haven't bothered learning/grinding the game like I used to. I don't know what this game (or my character/strategy) will be like after it's finally done.

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

Tremor's move list was leaked almost three weeks before the official release. People identified one full screen unblockable attack, one short-ranged projectile, and three long-ranged projectiles as universal special moves. The logical assumption was Tremor was going to be a zoning character in some way, shape, or form, but unfortunately he fits no character archetype. The character is so abysmal players are still uncertain about the best way to use him.

Speaking of DLC, Predator is only two weeks older than Tremor in terms of the release date. You have apparently acquired adequate knowledge of Predator to presume he entirely invalidates Sub Zero in all variations while simultaneously you know that Tremor has potential in Crystalline. I actually do not question your knowledge, only your hypocrisy. You tell me I am wrong about Tremor, a character who is one week old, but you state that Sub Zero is invalidated by Predator, a character who is three weeks old.

I would also like to know how you keep a positive image with some of this bullshit that you post. Let us be serious here. If Tom Brady had created this thread, a lot of posts would have been malicious. If I had created a thread that claimed Kano is officially "dead" and invalidated by Predator, one person would suggest I commit suicide, at least three haters would demand I be excluded from the Kombat Tomb Podcast, and countless others would state I only want "broken" zoning.

Commit Kombat Tomb Podcast hara kiri immediately

And LBSH, you truly do only wish for broken zoning.

 

[protools27]

Can it be said that the community of a character can take on the personality of its top player? Because man the sub zero community is emo. One character cannot "kill" or "invalidate" another character. The people that actually like sub zero will keep playing him regardless if predator has superior tools. And the people who think predator gives them a better chance to win, and that he has better tools will switch to predator. lets not be so dramatic.

 

[Ashenar]

Hey.

When the game first came out (first week) I thought Unbreakable was the best variation for sub zero, as on paper it looked like this:

1. Takes no chip damage
2. Reduces all opponents damage by 13-25%, dropping 40% characters for a bar to 27%
3. Has a 50/50
4. Gains a 6 frame parry for no meter

At the beginning of the game, this has potential to work, but as we developed in the community along with the recent patches and no attention to Sub Zero, this no longer works and is arguably the worst variation in the game (next to Metallic).

The inclusion of Predator not only buries Unbreakable, but it also ruins Grand Master, making this character redundant already and in only a few months of the games life.

Here are my thoughts on this.

Part 1: Unbreakable

Part 2: Grand Master / Cryomancer

In my opinion, Sub Zero is dead, as Predator is in better in every way.

Unless Sub Zero is totally overhauled in the next patch on all three variations, he will be the first character to die as we inevitably push towards competitively killing off the cast except for the same top 3-5 characters at every event and the game suffers the same fate every single fighting game does, although MKX has the best chance of any game I've played yet, it has been solely down to the investment of the NRS staff as they try to keep their ear to the ground, hopefully they don't take the foot off the pedal just yet and don't listen to the "Sub Zero is fine" propaganda that everyone is buying currently, as this game is close to being a perfectly rounded game, and I hope they know it.

Every character should be viable, the variation system should work.

The issue with Liu is his fire balls on reflect or party allow him to recovery instantly. So he can actually chain them because for some reason parries and reflects give him on hit recovery instead of on block.

 

[ColdBoreMK23]

Predator has the third worst wake up in the game?

Summoner and Sorcerer Quan have NONE and Quan is arguably top 3 for his toolset.

I watched @Pig Of The Hut vs Crosby87 the other night and pig can tell you how he felt after playing against him.

 

[UsedForGlue]

Spectral is the most useless in the game

You might have a point there.