Strategy - Sub-Zero Predator V Sub Zero - MKX's First Death

[NikkoVee]

Had someone online try to convince me that Sub was a top tier character and that people only win with him because NRS loves him. I think that's the biggest problem with most MK players online, the ice clone makes them play a different way than they normally would and instead of trying to find a way around it they just think the character's broken when their normal strategy doesn't work out for them. Sub's probably never gonna get buffs because the casual audience online perceives him as overpowered.

 

[Ryncage]

Unless that character is apparently Tremor.

I ought to create a thread exposing the hypocrites in this community who promote the "shut up and allow the game to develop" mentality unless they perceive their primary character to be "dead" or "invalidated" by another, in which case NRS must patch the game at a moment's notice.

Also, this thread masquerades as another anti-zoning and anti-Hish-Qu-Ten Predator thread.

Keep your pants on, nobody is trying to nerfbat your waifu.
Im more inclined to think the sz community enjoys predator, but want a reason to look at sub zero and say "id rather pick that over pred this time".
Or idk, have their former mains ex abilties function, have a reason to ever take a variation outside of one matchup, ect.

 

[I GOT HANDS]

Holy shit!
I assumed wrongly about this thread being a downplay thread, there's real shit to learn from this, my god!
Why didn't we know about how horribad this variation is earlier?

If you didn't know about this earlier, you are well behind. It's pretty well known and widely agreed that Unbreakable is bottom 3 for variation specific tools

Unless that character is apparently Tremor.

I ought to create a thread exposing the hypocrites in this community who promote the "shut up and allow the game to develop" mentality unless they perceive their primary character to be "dead" or "invalidated" by another, in which case NRS must patch the game at a moment's notice.

Also, this thread masquerades as another anti-zoning and anti-Hish-Qu-Ten Predator thread.

I'd love you to death if you made that thread

 

[M2Dave]

Keep your pants on, nobody is trying to nerfbat your waifu.
Im more inclined to think the sz community enjoys predator, but want a reason to look at sub zero and say "id rather pick that over pred this time".
Or idk, have their former mains ex abilties function, have a reason to ever take a variation outside of one matchup, ect.

Sub Zero's main issue has absolutely nothing to do with the functionality of the EX clone or the parry's long recovery frames.

Perhaps b+2 should be safe on block at the expense of slide having more recovery frames on whiff.

 

[Ryncage]

Sub Zero's main issue has absolutely nothing to do with the functionality of the EX clone or the parry's long recovery frames.

Perhaps b+2 should be safe on block at the expense of slide having more recovery frames on whiff.

What changes to frame data you want to put where is up for debate. The functionality of clone is simply unacceptable, regardless of the actual usefulness of the move. Even if it was the same speed as normal clone but just had a hit of armor id take it over whiffing randomly on execution.

But thats neither here nor there. What changes would put sub in a better spot with his 7-3's and 8-2 has been discussed to death.
Not just sub, but every characters kit should function properly. I put that above all else personally.

 

[LaidbackOne]

Unless that character is apparently Tremor.

I ought to create a thread exposing the hypocrites in this community who promote the "shut up and allow the game to develop" mentality unless they perceive their primary character to be "dead" or "invalidated" by another, in which case NRS must patch the game at a moment's notice.

Also, this thread masquerades as another anti-zoning and anti-Hish-Qu-Ten Predator thread.

<3

 

[ZeZe]

I though variations were there for a reason. But with most Sub players, they won't counter pick with different Sub variation. They will just change character. For a reason. UB and Cryo are not viable outside casual play. Variations are useless if they don't serve their purpose.

And the DLC characters... it's just too bad Pred is capable of replacing every Sub variation. He sort of nullifies Deceptive Reptile, but Nimble and Noxious at least keep their unique tools.

 

[Pan1cMode]

Worst variation in the game? High tech Jacqui pls

 

[DarksydeDash]

IM SO EMO RIGHT NOW :'(

 

[kabelfritz]

Sub Zero is fine, predator is ridiculous though and needs the nerf-bat in multiple areas.

 

[Phosferrax]

Even if Sub Zero got the buffs they wanted, Predator would still invalidate him.

HQT invalidates Cybernetic Kano, and bodies a good portion of the cast.

 

[Temjiin]

Spectral is the most useless in the game

 

[STRYKIE]

Spectral is the most useless in the game

For a while, I thought that too.

Then I had a look at what was exclusive to Mystic.

 

[I GOT HANDS]

Ermac has shit variations too, really shit

 

[-narshkajke-]

I need a drink habibi, these videos are depressing.

 

[Gangsta Crizzab]

Called this on day 1 with Predator after only a couple hours of labwork. He simply does everything Sub Zero does but better, and I play all three of Sub's variations almost exclusively. I think he's a bit better in general in MKX than people give him credit for, but he's hurting pretty bad currently. Ice Clone DOES need a fix, and Cryo/Unbreakable need some slight buffs. Shorten the whiff time on Parry and make it viable vs. jump ins, speed up Cryo d,b+2 (and making the air version viable for anything at all would be nice), and fix the hitbox. Give him another + frame or 0 frame recovery on something (Cryo f+4,2,1+3 with + on hit?) so he's a little bit safer and there's more incentive to play his non-GM variations. Those would go a long way.

 

[infamy23]

So we're not even gonna mention that Predator has the 3rd worst wakeup in the game and gets absolutely destroyed by characters with good corner carry and pressure (like Raiden).

Meanwhile SZ can EX slide on a read which is fast and difficult to stuff, and gets him out of the corner while putting his opponent in a corner clone trap.

Not to say that SZ has the best wakeup either but it's a million times better than Predator's so can we stop repeating that Predator does EVERYTHING better than Sub?

 

[UsedForGlue]

Unless that character is apparently Tremor.

I ought to create a thread exposing the hypocrites in this community who promote the "shut up and allow the game to develop" mentality unless they perceive their primary character to be "dead" or "invalidated" by another, in which case NRS must patch the game at a moment's notice.

Also, this thread masquerades as another anti-zoning and anti-Hish-Qu-Ten Predator thread.

Jesus man...

Ok, where do I begin?

My issue with the community and Tremor was that the community themselves built Tremor as a zoning character BEFORE HE WAS RELEASED, they came up with this idea themselves, and when he couldn't zone, he was wrote off, thats my issue, he isn't a zoning character, not sure if he ever will be unless he is buffed in a patch.

He was out ONE DAY and people were saying he was not viable, which I thought was too soon... and it still is, that's it, that's my entire view, so stop trying to make it something else.

"They must patch the game at a moments notice", Sub Zero has missed both major patches when he clearly has major issues in all three variations, and in one patch he was actually nerfed, how is this "at a moments notice"?

Also, how is this an anti Hish-Qu-Ten when I didn't even mention it once, and I actually play Hish-Qu-Ten.

I am starting to get the feeling that you are just looking for an argument with me, which is fine, but just say so and Il discuss anything you want, anytime you want, my opinions are like yours dude, I don't just pull them out of my ass on a knee jerk reaction.

 

[Peckapowa]

Sub Zero's main issue has absolutely nothing to do with the functionality of the EX clone or the parry's long recovery frames.

Perhaps b+2 should be safe on block at the expense of slide having more recovery frames on whiff.

his slide is fucking stupid

 

[I GOT HANDS]

So we're not even gonna mention that Predator has the 3rd worst wakeup in the game and gets absolutely destroyed by characters with good corner carry and pressure (like Raiden).

Meanwhile SZ can EX slide on a read which is fast and difficult to stuff, and gets him out of the corner while putting his opponent in a corner clone trap.

Not to say that SZ has the best wakeup either but it's a million times better than Predator's so can we stop repeating that Predator does EVERYTHING better than Sub?

You don't have to do absolutely every single thing better than another character to be an all round much better choice for the playstyle and role and making another character obsolete. Better in EVERY way isn't true obviously, but the Predator / SZ relationship is about as close as we can come to that statement in MKX. Most characters have very defined strengths unique to them, and "having slightly better bit still pretty mediocre wake up options" isn't a great argument.

 

[MadPropz101]

Predator's D4 wrecks GM

 

[infamy23]

You don't have to do absolutely every single thing better than another character to be an all round much better choice for the playstyle and role and making another character obsolete. Better in EVERY way isn't true obviously, but the Predator / SZ relationship is about as close as we can come to that statement in MKX. Most characters have very defined strengths unique to them, and "having slightly better bit still pretty mediocre wake up options" isn't a great argument.

I'm not arguing the main point that Predator is a better SZ. He may very well be.

But the option of EX slide on wakeup is not a "bit better". This is a game where 1 superman will most likely be the end of the round for a character like Predator. That is a big deal. So if Raiden beats SZ 7-3 or whatever, (which is debatable IMO, I think the match is closer to 5.5-4.5), if you think you are just gonna switch to Predator and magically overcome this matchup you're crazy. Predator loses to Raiden a lot worse than SZ does specifically because of the massive difference in their wakeup options.

EX slide is a real wakeup, it's something that must be respected. Predator's Scimitar Slam is an absolute joke and I don't have to respect it at all, it might as well not even exist when I have him in the corner.

 

[C88 Zombieekiler]

At least he beats Liu Kang convincingly.

sub? are you silly? also glue i got predator

 

[C88 Zombieekiler]

Had someone online try to convince me that Sub was a top tier character and that people only win with him because NRS loves him. I think that's the biggest problem with most MK players online, the ice clone makes them play a different way than they normally would and instead of trying to find a way around it they just think the character's broken when their normal strategy doesn't work out for them. Sub's probably never gonna get buffs because the casual audience online perceives him as overpowered.

this has happened to me so many times bro

 

[Derptile]

sub? are you silly? also glue i got predator

Unbreakable doesn't have to deal with Liu Kang's ridiculous chip, also Liu Kang has bad defense which makes Unbreakable's lack of offense not as bad in this MU.