Discussion Patches overwhelmingly help NRS games not hurt them

[Sonho]

Dude, Hisako's infinite is literally a MOOT point. It's not an in game infinite. It's post match. It's like Kung Lao's Teleport 3 winning shenanigans in MK9. It doesn't affect the character or match at all.


I was referring to tournaments. Quans mix ups are fantastic. Yes he can be beat when he is knocked on his ass, but he is plus on both bat and ex rune which means it's safe mixup city. Not to mention his mixup is a mixup within a mixup depending on the timing he uses.

As a Quan Chi player i feel that bat needs to have a increased delay between the resummon so you cant just spam it out like you do it now, but if its too nerfed it will hurt him way too much (unless they tweak somthing else aswell) EX runes still costs 1 bar, let that be as it is since with a small delay nerf on bat, you can easier make your way in and the Quan player needs to think before the uses the bat.
If they make it (bat) unsummonable during trance (someonbody sugguested this) then summoner wouldnt be as viable as the rest of the variations. Since the reason to use bat during a trance is it get the b324 safe and not -100 on block.
But as i said, smaller tweaks instead of huge nerfs is the way to go

edit: forgot to mention that Quan is far from the only one who got a vortex in this game..

 

[Sultani]

Quan's fine. Dude doesn't even have a hat.

 

[Sonho]

Quan's fine. Dude doesn't even have a hat.

Dude doesnt even got hair.. nor a hat.. he get sunburned on the sunny stages

 

[Sultani]

Dude doesnt even got hair.. nor a hat.. he get sunburned on the sunny stages

Remeber that movie when he got bullied and pushed into the mud?

He woo-laid in a puddle.

 

[KingHippo]

I wasn't arguing with you. I just pointed out your point about Hisakos "infinite" which can only happen AFTER you have been beaten. It's an Ultra inifinite...it's not in anyway gamebreaking. It's a moot point.

After that, it was just a general response. I'm kind of flattered that you read that all as if I was talking to only you tho. Tiers absolutely exist in fighting games, but right now as it stands, a lot of characters are REALLY lacking. The gap between S+ and A seems like the largest gap I've seen in a long time. In most games that gap is not that large. I am not spreading doom and gloom, this game is going to change drastically by October. That I'm sure of. It just saddens me that you can go through the roster and pick a handful of really interesting characters (Kotal, Johnny, Kitana, Mileena, Kenshi, Shinnok) and just shudder at their tools. It's not that they don't have any, it's that they literally don't make sense or don't mesh with their OTHER tools. Hell, those are just the characters I've personally touched too.

How the hell does Cage lack tools?

 

[THTB]

Balance changes historically have been to completely nerf characters into the ground to be unusable in a tournament setting (Injustice Scorpion, MK9 Sub Zero and Scorpion, MKX: TBD).

But we ignore Kung Lao, Superman, Aquaman, Smoke, Kitana, Skarlet, etc. It's great to point out the relatively small number of top tiers that get dropped to low/bottom tier...but let's be real here, more often than not, the top tiers they do nerf are fine afterwards.

And this issue isn't exclusive to NRS. At all. Need we all be reminded of who is the reason behind the term "getting Sean'd"?

 

[THTB]

How the hell does Cage lack tools?

Lol right, though.

 

[Ninj]

.but let's be real here, more often than not, the top tiers they do nerf are fine afterwards.

That's part of my point about NRS not understanding how to properly nerf. They nerf a top tier and they remain top tier - where are the buffs to the characters that aren't top? Where were any of the buffs to the B-list and below in MK9? Or Injustice?

Not all games leave characters who aren't A-S tier in useless status - if we see NRS as an A-list FG producer in the competitive scene, we should be expecting them to bring their cast of characters in line with one another.

Unless everyone likes 8-2 matchups and thinks that's fun. Taken to the tournament level, it becomes boring to watch a fight that's 7-3 or 8-2 because, even if there are skill gaps and a 3-7 character wins due to player skill overcoming tools, more often than not they will lose against an equally skilled player. That detracts from the game for me.

 

[KingHippo]

That's part of my point about NRS not understanding how to properly nerf. They nerf a top tier and they remain top tier - where are the buffs to the characters that aren't top? Where were any of the buffs to the B-list and below in MK9? Or Injustice?

Not all games leave characters who aren't A-S tier in useless status - if we see NRS as an A-list FG producer in the competitive scene, we should be expecting them to bring their cast of characters in line with one another.

Unless everyone likes 8-2 matchups and thinks that's fun. Taken to the tournament level, it becomes boring to watch a fight that's 7-3 or 8-2 because, even if there are skill gaps and a 3-7 character wins due to player skill overcoming tools, more often than not they will lose against an equally skilled player. That detracts from the game for me.

I don't know what fantasy world you live in where this actually happens with any balance patches to any fighter. Bad matchups, even horrific ones, are just part of the fighting game makeup. When you introduce a wide variety of tools in a character, sometimes it just happens. It's more interesting to play, but can be bad for balance. I'd take the interesting route.

 

[THTB]

That's part of my point about NRS not understanding how to properly nerf. They nerf a top tier and they remain top tier - where are the buffs to the characters that aren't top? Where were any of the buffs to the B-list and below in MK9? Or Injustice?

Not all games leave characters who aren't A-S tier in useless status - if we see NRS as an A-list FG producer in the competitive scene, we should be expecting them to bring their cast of characters in line with one another.

Unless everyone likes 8-2 matchups and thinks that's fun. Taken to the tournament level, it becomes boring to watch a fight that's 7-3 or 8-2 because, even if there are skill gaps and a 3-7 character wins due to player skill overcoming tools, more often than not they will lose against an equally skilled player. That detracts from the game for me.

All the things you hate about the balance in NRS games applies to so many other fighting games, it's not even funny. It happens. It doesn't happen in some, but do you know what happens in those games? The tiers literally do a 180 oftentimes. Have you followed what happened to BlazBlue's tier lists through the iterations of the game? Did exactly that.

I agree on the lack of proper balancing for low and bottom tiers, but that happens in literally every game. And a lot of the time, it's because the character has zero representation for them to see why they're low tier. This happens in Tekken, Street Fighter, DOA, etc. If it's not that, it's usually because the developer doesn't feel the design of the character fits being a top tier character. Which makes sense. You really don't want gimmicky low tiers to all of a sudden become top tier.

 

[THTB]

I don't know what fantasy world you live in where this actually happens with any balance patches to any fighter. Bad matchups, even horrific ones, are just part of the fighting game makeup. When you introduce a wide variety of tools in a character, sometimes it just happens. It's more interesting to play, but can be bad for balance. I'd take the interesting route.

And this isn't even just a fighting game thing. It translates to MOBAs, too. Among other competitive genres.

 

[KingHippo]

Like let's even take KI (Which I'm a big fan of), the balance was just whatever. TJ, Fulgore, Sabre and Spinal were clearly just a cut above the rest, and everyone played their game. The game has good universal mechanics so they don't run absolutely roughshod, but it is what it is. If IG didn't patch the game on a monthly basis, they would stay top. However, one other thing that needs to be acknowledged is that IG also does wacky things like completely change how characters play in patches, which is fine, but it's not really acknowledging balance so much as them wanting to go in a completely different direction. I think it's safe to say many lead designs probably don't think this way.

 

[TakeAChance]

How the hell does Cage lack tools?

If you read another one of my posts farther back you would have read my ellaboration on that.*EDIT* NVM, just read the last sentence. "It's not that they don't have any, it's that they literally don't make sense or don't mesh with their OTHER tools."

Just from personal experience with the character in Fisticuffs, which is primarily a chip damage variation (that's the gimmick), he doesn't have the strings to really back it up except for b12. He is supposed to be an in your face rushdown style character but has to rely on his neutral strings and down pokes to initiate pseudo pressure. He isn't plus on anything but EX Forceball. After any of his strings (which are neutral at best) he has to rely on a poke, cross up, or walk back whiff punish. He doesn't excel at rushdown, but he does have safe strings.


I've only played Fisticuffs, and that was my assessment of the variation. I'm not even saying he is bad, I am just saying his toolset doesn't seem to synergize well with his gimmick. The only real synergy fisticuffs has, is that he is guaranteed more damage off a nut punch reset.

 

[KingHippo]

Oh, well yeah, Fisticuffs might be the worst variation in the game. "Pressure" in general in this game stinks, unless you can initiate some sort of guessing game off of a string, like Johnny. This is LK's big flaw, he has a lot of "pressure" but it stinks because he'll rarely get much besides a throw or a shite overhead. At least Johnny is constantly picking and poking away at your sanity.

 

[haketh]

Like let's even take KI (Which I'm a big fan of), the balance was just whatever. TJ, Fulgore, Sabre and Spinal were clearly just a cut above the rest, and everyone played their game. The game has good universal mechanics so they don't run absolutely roughshod, but it is what it is. If IG didn't patch the game on a monthly basis, they would stay top. However, one other thing that needs to be acknowledged is that IG also does wacky things like completely change how characters play in patches, which is fine, but it's not really acknowledging balance so much as them wanting to go in a completely different direction. I think it's safe to say many lead designs probably don't think this way.

Lab Zero does the same with Skullgirls

Oh, well yeah, Fisticuffs might be the worst variation in the game. "Pressure" in general in this game stinks, unless you can initiate some sort of guessing game off of a string, like Johnny. This is LK's big flaw, he has a lot of "pressure" but it stinks because he'll rarely get much besides a throw or a shite overhead. At least Johnny is constantly picking and poking away at your sanity.

This is honestly a big flaw with the game IMO but then again I'm a guy who loves doing pressure strings.

 

[KingHippo]

Lab Zero does the same with Skullgirls


This is honestly a big flaw with the game IMO but then again I'm a guy who loves doing pressure strings.

Mike Z strikes as the kind of guy who would do that, yeah.

I think they seem to have finally swung over to the 3D side of things where it's like "turn" fighting. Of course they added armor just to make sure there's that variable. It's interesting, and a lot different than the other two games, which is cool.

 

[Sultani]

That sentiment isnt even exclusive to cage either.

 

[haketh]

I think they seem to have finally swung over to the 3D side of things where it's like "turn" fighting. Of course they added armor just to make sure there's that variable. It's interesting, and a lot different than the other two games, which is cool.

It just feels like some variations like Fisticuffs weren't built with that in mind. I do hope when big patches drop NRS thinks about giving certain variations different frame data on normals like say Fisticuff's gets a pokes that are plus while the other two have that same poke/string/whathave you remain nuetral. It's what they've done in Melty Blood since MBAC.

 

[KingHippo]

It just feels like some variations like Fisticuffs weren't built with that in mind. I do hope when big patches drop NRS thinks about giving certain variations different frame data on normals like say Fisticuff's gets a pokes that are plus while the other two have that same poke/string/whathave you remain nuetral. It's what they've done in Melty Blood since MBAC.

I think that's a grand idea, but I also think whoever makes Melty Blood was trying to make like a completely different character in that new variation, and I think this one wanted to see Johnny do b121212121212 a lot.

 

[haketh]

I think that's a grand idea, but I also think whoever makes Melty Blood was trying to make like a completely different character in that new variation, and I think this one wanted to see Johnny do b121212121212 a lot.

YEah I would love to pick NRS brains when it comrs to this stuff

 

[Jb879212]

As a Displacer Raiden myself...

YOU ARE OUT OF YOUR MIND.

I don't see how reducing a few frames of recovery would be so crazy. It's unsafe even with a proper read on most characters.

 

[Rude]

All the things you hate about the balance in NRS games applies to so many other fighting games, it's not even funny. It happens. It doesn't happen in some, but do you know what happens in those games? The tiers literally do a 180 oftentimes. Have you followed what happened to BlazBlue's tier lists through the iterations of the game? Did exactly that.

I agree on the lack of proper balancing for low and bottom tiers, but that happens in literally every game. And a lot of the time, it's because the character has zero representation for them to see why they're low tier. This happens in Tekken, Street Fighter, DOA, etc. If it's not that, it's usually because the developer doesn't feel the design of the character fits being a top tier character. Which makes sense. You really don't want gimmicky low tiers to all of a sudden become top tier.

I said a lot of this exact stuff earlier and was told i was talking in circles.

Anyway, the guy has his opinion. I don't agree with it but to each his own.

I trust NRS to balance this game fairly with patches. I just think that balance patches are inherit to gaming. Even single player games like the Batman series can come with day one patches to fix bugs, glitches, improve functionality, etc.

A lot of people like to blow up the NRS testers, but i think it's impossible to find everything. Or if it is possible, i would need an example.

 

[DreamTR]

I purposely NEVER post on anything related to the MK community because let's me quite honest, there is no need to. Everyone knows what it looks like from the outside and it's a shame because for all intents and purposes the developers of the game do not mirror the absolute lunacy from the community.

So this whole argument/point was mute when I read there were 5 (5!) patches of Injustice.

I am sorry but other than changing obvious bugs, the rebalancing of the games does NOTHING but turn the tier list the other way. Do you guys really like Batgirl going nuts on everyone? No? Because outsiders view Injustice in a poor fashion not because of the developers but because of the constant clowning and ridiculousness of the MK community.

For years casual players of MK have always been whining, complaining, saying things need to be changed, etc.

You don't even have enough time to play and LEARN the game completely in the short months when games keep "needing" to be patched. It is the ultimate turn off.

Hardcore players may think this is fine for tournaments, and honestly the games sell so it does not really matter at this point, the developers do this so the community can be supported, but seriously, changing this, banning this, whining this, waaah wahhhh, all the time.

Also, in regards to the whole yell at the NRS testers and pro players...mind you it's IMPOSSIBLE to find everything with a small group of people. Best testers are the public, always has been. When I helped with some MK stuff on Mk vs DC and MK9, you won't believe how the "community" (this meaning most people on these boards) would say "we need pro players, we need better testers, we need frame data, etc." And as I look back on this now that I am not involved in these games, nothing has changed, people are still whining, and it's more of an "I told you so" from ages ago on how these games are not going to magically play like Street Fighter and not have bugs, etc.

They aren't supposed to, you take it for what it is and this is MK (which lately has played a lot more like 2D Tekken over the years) but the game is fun. Enjoy it. Quit complaining. Quit calling for patches. Quit saying XXX needs this, etc. The game has been out for 3 weeks and all everyone does is complain complain complain and want patch patch patch. Geez.

 

[DreamTR]

By the way, explaining to your friends who want to get into Injustice or MK9 that "oh that was removed 12981829 patches ago and explaining why and what and people don't even know what version they are playing is one sure fire way to get your hands up off the joystick/pad and just walk away. You can not think that someone buying a game at a store should have to endure the constant patching because the "differences" just flip flop the cast unless you are talking about bug fixes.

 

[GGA Jeremiah]

No one is against patches.

There are people that say wait 6 months to 1 year to patch. I have shown that NRS stops supporting their game with patches after 5 months. The people who say wait that long to patch are in reality asking for no patches. I am talking about reality not how things should be in a perfect world.