No longer S-tier?

[Leonkiller]

I completely agree nerf Kano back and give my cyrax the bomb trap back)))))))

 

[Gemini Knight]

Knife toss being slower don't really effect the way that I play. I'll zone with them, but I know that eventually opponents will get in with dash block. Dash block beats all type of projectile zoning, so I try to position in for the footsie war. If I dash in first I go for a string or throw, or space and wait for their jump. Opponents with good dash ins I try to interrupt with d+1, d+3 or d+4.

As for meter, he really only needs it for breakers and x-ray. Enhanced Horizontal Ball has armor, which works good when you're getting frame trapped and you don't want to mess with a 50/50. I also use both horizontal ball and air ball against opponents who has low projectiles. If I can teach them not to throw em out in obvious situations, my chances of dashing in for the 50/50 become better. f+1,2 is such a slept on move. Advantage on block, 2nd hit can be canceled into special, or you can put in a special without canceling. And since everyone now are holding block waiting to punish upball, you can build meter and get that x-ray up. So you don't even need to stress that Kano doesn't get damaging combos, cause he can build meter and still keep opponents in check at any range.

 

[Gthunda866]

Well I have discovered that the changed startup for upball has affected the combos, the F.3B.2xxdash b.1 212xxdash b.12xxupball doesnt work as often as it used to the upball whiffs alot unless the opponent is higher up which most of the time he or she isn't so that did 32% gotta change the b.12xxupball into b.11xxupball which does 30% NRS Y U KNOW BUFF KANO DAMAGE!?!?!?

 

[Owerbart]

I didn't play a lot with Kano, but those rolls are quite nasty, and very useful in contrast to previous games. Online, I saw only one Kano player, and he defeated me quite easily. Anyways, I tend to not believe in Tiers.

 

[MagicMan357]

Well I have discovered that the changed startup for upball has affected the combos, the F.3B.2xxdash b.1 212xxdash b.12xxupball doesnt work as often as it used to the upball whiffs alot unless the opponent is higher up which most of the time he or she isn't so that did 32% gotta change the b.12xxupball into b.11xxupball which does 30% NRS Y U KNOW BUFF KANO DAMAGE!?!?!?

They dont even have to buff him all they have to do is allow for more combo options and it would buff him automatically

The thing i find funny is how people keep saying he doesnt need a buff, when they main someone who can pull easy 40's and 50's (everyone else)

 

[Vulcan Hades]

The thing i find funny is how people keep saying he doesnt need a buff, when they main someone who can pull easy 40's and 50's (everyone else)

Combos don't mean anything.

Kung Lao and Johnny Cage can barely pull 20% combos without meter yet they are 2 of the best characters in the game.

As long as you can do 30% meterless with Kano you're fine. That's good enough for him (or any character for that matter).

 

[MagicMan357]

Combos don't mean anything.

Kung Lao and Johnny Cage can barely pull 20% combos without meter yet they are 2 of the best characters in the game.

As long as you can do 30% meterless with Kano you're fine. That's good enough for him (or any character for that matter).

I dont know what game you are playing because you can get easy 30s no bar, and combos mean alot obviously WTF and no he's not fine with this ridiculous nerf, im not even gonna argue, you guys dont main him so you really dont understand at all

 

[cyke_out]

Kano's B+1,1,2 dash, 2,1,2 dash 2,1,2 ball is just as easy as a Cage's f+4 dash 2,1,f+2 dash 4,4, shadow kick for about the same damage.

 

[Vulcan Hades]

I dont know what game you are playing because you can get easy 30s no bar, and combos mean alot obviously WTF and no he's not fine with this ridiculous nerf, im not even gonna argue, you guys dont main him so you really dont understand at all

I used to main him before he became retarded and braindead. Then I switched to a character that was more challenging and fun to use. I might start using him again now that he's more normal and legit.

I'm not saying I agree with his knife nerf. But the upball nerf was needed for sure.

and combos mean alot obviously WTF

All I said was that 30% was pretty much average and good enough. You don't need 50% flashy combos to win.

And who can easily do 45%+ combos anyway? I can only think of a few of the top of my head: Kitana, Ermac, Scorpion, Cyrax... Skarlet I guess. Who else?

 

[EVB SomeCubanGuy]

I dont know what game you are playing because you can get easy 30s no bar, and combos mean alot obviously WTF and no he's not fine with this ridiculous nerf, im not even gonna argue, you guys dont main him so you really dont understand at all

Please stop presuming that people don't know what they're talking about just because they don't "main" your character. That is just plain ignorant. Everyone who has posted in this thread has either been in the lab, or has extensive matchup knowledge with Kano from playing people who do main him. Don't assume that just because you play a character exclusively that you know everything there is to know about him. If you did, then why even go to forums like these?

Combos are never the be all end all for a character ever. If they were the determining factor for tiers, then Kitana, Sheeva, and Jax would be much higher up. The reason Kano (and any character for that matter) can be considered solid is because of the tools they have to deal with a multitude of situations. Kano's nerfs dd nothing in terms of his overall gameplan. Upball can still be used after blockstrings to check opponents and set up throws. Knives are still gdlk. So they both can be punished a little easier, so what? The lot of you are acting as if they removed both moves completely. It's absolutely ridiculous.

 

[Vulcan Hades]

Upball can still be used after blockstrings to check opponents and set up throws. Knives are still gdlk. So they both can be punished a little easier, so what? The lot of you are acting as if they removed both moves completely. It's absolutely ridiculous.

And to that I add: B1, 1, 2 and F3 are already SAFE. And even if they weren't safe you could still cancel any string (including overhead) into choke to make them safe. So when you really take time to think about it, upball isn't even needed except to anti-air and stop cross-over jumps.

@MagicMan357: Did you watch JT Circus play at CEO? He made top 8 and barely was using the upball at all (only when he KNEW it was gonna hit). All he did to check opponent was Choke. Why? Because good players like Chris G, Arturo, Banana Ken, Tom Brady and Justin Wong keep punishing upball on block (even if it's just a D1 or throw attempt). But they can't do shit vs Choke. Plus Choke can stop jump aways.

The only time you need to combo is when you block special moves or when you land a jump punch, low or overhead. And 30% is decent damage for a punisher. The rest is all zoning, counter zoning, mid range and mixups up close. Oh yeah, and that godlike X-ray of course. 41% unblockable throw with super armor. Man I wish I had that with Stryker, Baraka and Mileena.

 

[M2Dave]

Guys, very few people are even debating the Up Ball nerf. It is fine the way it is at the moment. If anything, Kano players are upset about the additional two frames of recovery and the "cool down" after each Knife Toss. You can definitely make a good argument against these two changes without coming off as a bitter Kano player.

Combos are never the be all end all for a character ever. If they were the determining factor for tiers, then Kitana, Sheeva, and Jax would be much higher up. The reason Kano (and any character for that matter) can be considered solid is because of the tools they have to deal with a multitude of situations. Kano's nerfs dd nothing in terms of his overall gameplan. Upball can still be used after blockstrings to check opponents and set up throws. Knives are still gdlk. So they both can be punished a little easier, so what? The lot of you are acting as if they removed both moves completely. It's absolutely ridiculous.

I disagree. The nerfs have changed the character for the worse which can be observed in Tom Brady's latest tier list. His core gameplan is not as effective as it once used to be. Your premise is more appropriate for a character like Kung Lao who has continuously been getting toned down yet remains the best character in the game. While Kung Lao's combos have severely been weakened, his best special moves are untouched for the most part. I am aware that d,f+1 has more recovery frames on block, but the move did not receive any additional unnecessary nerfs. Kano's Up Ball did. Kung Lao's d,b+2 is as good as ever. It did not receive any more recovery frames, or "cool down". Kano's Knife Toss did. Raiden is an another example. NRS may have reduced block advantages on his major strings, but his special moves are as good as they have ever been in MK. Aside from Quan Chi, Kano has received some unjustifiable nerfs because of a group of highly misinformed people who should have no say as far as balance goes.

 

[HexaDecimus]

I'm reading some funny stuff in this thread, like "Kano has no use for meter other than his X-Ray" , "his other Balls are too punishable to be useful", "Kano's combos don't do enough damage", "his normals are too slow."

"Kano used to be a mindless, easy character, and now he's useless." That's the one that really gets me going. You know, I really hate those anal-birthed whiny-ass scrubs who call everything that beats them "spam", but in the case of Kano, they were kind of right. All of us were TROLOLOLing our way to victory by chucking knives all day and chip damaging with Up Ball and only occasionally fucking around with juggle combos in Training mode for personal amusement and completely ignoring the rest of Kano's toolbox. I've told my Kano friends, stop doing that shit, because it's going to get nerfed and you're developing shitty habits. I'd say also stop doing it so the community won't outcry and nerf it, but you can't herd cats, which made where we are today inevitable.

All of you saying "Up Ball was okay, but knives was too far!" need to check yourselves. Knife spam used to be fucking ridiculous, and if you didn't know that, you must have been spamming half-heartedly. You could lock down Scorpion from a distance and he couldn't even teleport away without jumping and getting blocked by Kano, same with Ermac. Characters like Baraka and Jax had absolutely no hope against a spamming Kano, they lost the match at the character select screen.

I think the start up on the Up Ball was a psychological placebo too. Until I see from some kind of official source that there really were 2 frames added to the startup, I'm going to dispute it (I'm not saying our sources are untrustworthy, but sometimes the right hand doesn't know what the left is doing). Nothing about the startup feels "sluggish" or slow to me, I honestly believe it was just a slight recovery nerf and that was it. Were you using Up Ball on reaction to counter certain moves before or just spamming it?

If I can still insta-punish a Raiden teleport with Up Ball before he can Torpedo or start a combo, unless he activated it in the middle of one of my other animations, I seriously doubt the startup got changed. Kano was designed to be, and always has been, a character that is based on reflexes and reaction. If you can't punish any projectile with a jump forward and Air Ball or EX version, then you've been playing Kano and missing out on a core feature of his character. It's only a "risky" move if you read and react to the projectile too late.

I could go on, but it would be a better use of my energy to just finish writing my Kano guide and post it for those who don't know what to do in a post Kano-spam world.

 

[cyke_out]

The thing about locking scorpion down is so fucking true. unless he did ex-spear he was fucked, even trading with hellfire was in Kano's favor. His best bet is to get hit by a knife during jump so he get's knocked down and can do a wake-up teleport.

 

[Xstatic]

Guys, very few people are even debating the Up Ball nerf. It is fine the way it is at the moment. If anything, Kano players are upset about the additional two frames of recovery and the "cool down" after each Knife Toss. You can definitely make a good argument against these two changes without coming off as a bitter Kano player.



I disagree. The nerfs have changed the character for the worse which can be observed in Tom Brady's latest tier list. His core gameplan is not as effective as it once used to be. Your premise is more appropriate for a character like Kung Lao who has continuously been getting toned down yet remains the best character in the game. While Kung Lao's combos have severely been weakened, his best special moves are untouched for the most part. I am aware that d,f+1 has more recovery frames on block, but the move did not receive any additional unnecessary nerfs. Kano's Up Ball did. Kung Lao's d,b+2 is as good as ever. It did not receive any more recovery frames, or "cool down". Kano's Knife Toss did. Raiden is an another example. NRS may have reduced block advantages on his major strings, but his special moves are as good as they have ever been in MK. Aside from Quan Chi, Kano has received some unjustifiable nerfs because of a group of highly misinformed people who should have no say as far as balance goes.

This post makes me sad because it makes me realize that both my main characters got nerfs they didn't deserve. Kung Lao is one of the best characters in the game because he does everything so well. He's one of the best zoners with his low hat/spin combo, and he has great rushdown. I find it dumb that Kung Lao can outzone Quan Chi. I mean, KL doesn't fit any charatcer type; he just does everything... extremely well... Kano had zoning that caused the S-tier problems, but not anymore. I bet KL players would be up in arms right now if low hat got more recovery and if spin went from a 6-frame start-up to 8.

 

[Gthunda866]

Played Kano at casuals today my first visit to a scene and I had to convince people that Kano was fixed but I kept my own vs the best Jax I have ever seen in my life I really didn't know how to play against him

 

[G4S KT]

As far as I'm concerned, Kano has always been (and still is) S tier.

IMO tier lists aren't very useful anyway.

 

[D_Matt_Ma]

I'll repeat what I said in the first page of this thread. Close this topic. It has done nothing for the Kano community. Just another place to yell at each other over stuff that is irrelevant.

 

[M2Dave]

The thing about locking scorpion down is so fucking true. unless he did ex-spear he was fucked, even trading with hellfire was in Kano's favor. His best bet is to get hit by a knife during jump so he get's knocked down and can do a wake-up teleport.

No, man. It is not true.

Hellfire does 7% of damage. Kano's Knife Toss does 9% of damage. If Scorpion performs two consecutive Hellfires in a row, how does the trade favor Kano? Scorpion can do Hellfire on reaction in response to the Knife Toss, and a second Hellfire is always free. 14% of damage is more than 9% of damage.

All of you saying "Up Ball was okay, but knives was too far!" need to check yourselves. Knife spam used to be fucking ridiculous, and if you didn't know that, you must have been spamming half-heartedly. You could lock down Scorpion from a distance and he couldn't even teleport away without jumping and getting blocked by Kano, same with Ermac. Characters like Baraka and Jax had absolutely no hope against a spamming Kano, they lost the match at the character select screen.

Old Kano's Knife Toss was very good, but it was hardly broken. You are not "locking down" anybody with the knives in this game. This is not ST.

The knives can be ducked, and you can advance forward by dashing and canceling your dash with d+1 (or d+3). You automatically duck any knife while doing so. d+3 "ducks" under EX Knife Toss too. Aside from a risky straight ball, Kano can do nothing to prevent you from approaching. This is a universal strategy that works with every character. Furthermore, Sub Zero, Cyber Sub Zero, and Reptile can slide underneath the knives. Cyber Sub Zero can also dive kick over them on reaction at a specific distance. Noob Saibot can "crouch" the knives using the Shadow Up Kick. Scorpion can trade with Hellfire which is in his favor. Kung Lao can teleport. Sindel can low fireball underneath each knife. Johnny Cage has EX b,f+4. Nightwolf can reflect. Mileena can f,f+3 or roll underneath. Smoke can shake or teleport punch the knives. Jade can flash through the knives. The list goes on and on.

I do not mean to offend anybody, but some of you are highly misinformed. Old Kano was not a broken character. If you refuse to take my word for it because you perceive me as just another bitter Kano player, take Tom Brady's word instead. I talk to Tom a lot and he tells me that Old Kano lost to Kung Lao, Sub Zero, and possibly Nightwolf. For the most part, he went even with the other S tier characters.

You guys are entitled to your own opinions but not to your own set of facts. Please stop spreading false information.

 

[HexaDecimus]

Ok, you're one of those people that takes things ultra-literally so I'll handle this carefully for you. By "locking down", I mean that old Kano shitting knives repeatedly at the enemy put Kano at a huge advantage, even against people with the tools to deal with it. The other player seriously had to work harder than Kano did in order to answer back, and I know this because I abused this to its excruciating limits.

Basically, you can point out "hey there's so much stuff that counters knife spam LOOK". Yeah, I've played Kano for many, many matches and I know all those things. But guess what, if knife spam can be easily countered by a specific character, guess what I can do? That's right, something else! I've never been so stupid as to Knife spam someone like Sektor or Smoke, turtling works better. Just because Sektor and Smoke can hard counter knife spam, does that mean NRS should have completely held off on the nerf?

Universal neutral duck? That's not a hard counter to knives, you're not punishing Kano by letting those things whizz over your head. I've had matches where I just kept spamming the knives to safely build meter. It was on him to make the journey over me, because I had a health lead and I could just let the timer go down if I wanted. After 20 knives, you can interrupt it with a Kano Ball and they'll likely have gotten so complacent you'll land it.

Reptile's slide goes under Kano's knives. Big deal, just position yourself farther. Sub Zeros can be baited into sliding into your block, and punished with a full combo. Let em hit you with that one slide the first time, let them build confidence, then start blocking it every time. Kano can still do this, but it was much easier pre-nerf.

You mentioned Noob Saibot "crouching" with his Shadow Up-Kick. Who the hell does that? If you're seriously trying to counter the knives, you can just do his Teleport Slam. Spamming against Noob is suicide regardless of how good your projectiles are, same as anyone else with a fast offensive teleport. Kano chucks a single knife, jumps over projectiles and uses Air Ball to punish and close distance, then tries to lock Noob into a rushdown game. Noob tries to push him back, if he succeeds then back to the beginning again, etc.

Hellfire is hard countered by switching to Kano Ball or Air Ball instead. Johnny Cage got his ass zoned hard by Kano pre-hotfix. Why spam on Mileena when you can just wait for her to screw up and act on her insanely punishable moves?

Nightwolf's reflect was not even close to being scary for Kano. Throw knife, usually Nightwolf isn't quick enough on the first one, he gets hit. Throw second knife, he will reflect. Kano jumps over reflected knife and does Air Ball (preferably EX unless you're still stuck in this X-Ray only Kano mindset). Nightwolf wakes up with shoulder like he always does, trick him into a block, punish, etc.

Don't call me misinformed or saying I spread false information because my opinions aren't congruent with yours. Kano is my favorite MK character of all time, still is, and I still support these nerfs, which were honestly very slight. I'm still using Kano, I'm going through the same changes you are, I've chosen to adapt to them, hold my nose up high and ignore other people's tier lists like I've always done. I get out there and do the stuff the theorycrafters tell me I can't do and I walk home with an armful of wins.

People complain about knee jerk reactions and NRS "listening to the whining fans" and their solution is to whine to try to force a knee-jerk reaction from NRS.

And by the way, I don't need to namedrop people to defend Kano either.

 

[Vulcan Hades]

Well you both make good points.

In the end I would have to agree that the knife nerf won't change much (only +2 frames of recovery). I mean guys like Baraka, Sonya and Jax will still have a hard time vs Kano. And people that COULD easily get around Kano's knife spam, well it was already dumb to zone vs them anyway. So it's not gonna change a thing to your general gameplan.

I talk to Tom a lot and he tells me that Old Kano lost to Kung Lao, Sub Zero, and possibly Nightwolf. For the most part, he went even with the other S tier characters.

How does that help your argument?

You're basically admitting that he only had 2 bad matchups and was 5-5, 6-4 and 7-3 vs the rest of the cast lol. And you add that at the end of a post where you try to prove Kano wasn't really that good before. Kinda contradict yourself there don't you think?

 

[lobo]

 

[THTB]

Serious talk...Scrubs is awesome.

 

[cyke_out]

The last season sucked after J.D left.

 

[M2Dave]

Universal neutral duck? That's not a hard counter to knives, you're not punishing Kano by letting those things whizz over your head. I've had matches where I just kept spamming the knives to safely build meter. It was on him to make the journey over me, because I had a health lead and I could just let the timer go down if I wanted. After 20 knives, you can interrupt it with a Kano Ball and they'll likely have gotten so complacent you'll land it.

Many characters have the ability to safely let the timer go down once they have the life lead. Kano tossing knives is certainly not an exception.

Reptile's slide goes under Kano's knives. Big deal, just position yourself farther. Sub Zeros can be baited into sliding into your block, and punished with a full combo. Let em hit you with that one slide the first time, let them build confidence, then start blocking it every time. Kano can still do this, but it was much easier pre-nerf.

Reptile and Sub Zero players do not slide on anticipation. They slide on reaction. In other words, they only slide when they see Kano throw a knife at mid range. There is very little risk involved when you can do something on reaction to something else.

You mentioned Noob Saibot "crouching" with his Shadow Up-Kick. Who the hell does that? If you're seriously trying to counter the knives, you can just do his Teleport Slam. Spamming against Noob is suicide regardless of how good your projectiles are, same as anyone else with a fast offensive teleport. Kano chucks a single knife, jumps over projectiles and uses Air Ball to punish and close distance, then tries to lock Noob into a rushdown game. Noob tries to push him back, if he succeeds then back to the beginning again, etc.

Smart Noob players use the Shadow Up Kick to "crouch" under the knives when they have the life lead, so Kano has to make the "journey", as you say, over Noob.

I assure you that the only suicidal thing about Kano vs. Noob is Noob using Teleports to counter Kano's knives. Noob's Teleport is hardly fast. The only teleport attacks in the game that you can use to punish projectiles in your sleep are Smoke's Teleport Punch and Mileena's Teleport Kick. Everything else requires some serious anticipation and reaction.

Hellfire is hard countered by switching to Kano Ball or Air Ball instead. Johnny Cage got his ass zoned hard by Kano pre-hotfix. Why spam on Mileena when you can just wait for her to screw up and act on her insanely punishable moves?

Johnny Cage has EX b,f+4 now and Mileena cannot screw up for the reason mentioned above. Kano has to come to her and rush her down. f,f+3 is very, very fast and will punish any knife on reaction, especially now.

Nightwolf's reflect was not even close to being scary for Kano. Throw knife, usually Nightwolf isn't quick enough on the first one, he gets hit. Throw second knife, he will reflect. Kano jumps over reflected knife and does Air Ball (preferably EX unless you're still stuck in this X-Ray only Kano mindset). Nightwolf wakes up with shoulder like he always does, trick him into a block, punish, etc.

I am confused. What would jumping over reflected knives and performing aerial balls do exactly for Kano? Nightwolf can obviously block the aerial ball and whiffing aerial balls to approach him is not safe.

In the end I would have to agree that the knife nerf won't change much (only +2 frames of recovery). I mean guys like Baraka, Sonya and Jax will still have a hard time vs Kano. And people that COULD easily get around Kano's knife spam, well it was already dumb to zone vs them anyway. So it's not gonna change a thing to your general gameplan.

Baraka, Sonya, and Jax will have still have a hard time versus a lot of stuff that S and A+ characters can do. Kano's knives are not and were not what made these characters low mid tier characters. Such arguments have never made sense to me. These characters obviously lack the appropriate tools to confront several situation, and Kano's Knife Toss just happens to be one of them.

How does that help your argument?

You're basically admitting that he only had 2 bad matchups and was 5-5, 6-4 and 7-3 vs the rest of the cast lol. And you add that at the end of a post where you try to prove Kano wasn't really that good before. Kinda contradict yourself there don't you think?

I never said Kano was not good. He was obviously an S tier character. My argument is that Old Kano was not this ridiculously overpowered character that most people make him out to be. Besides, if your intention is to tone down characters with one, two, or three bad match ups, would you like to tone down Kung Lao, Sub Zero, Raiden, Cage, and Nightwolf too to be balanced? Why just tone down Kano when he is not the only character who loses two match ups, goes even with the best characters in the game, and beats up everyone else?