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My last attempt at an accurate community tier list.

STB Sgt Reed

Online Warrior
Still don't understand how KL should be top 5. What has anybody done with this character since Evo??
That doesn't matter... that's player skill bro. It's about tools and MUs with other characters when talking about a tier list. And KL has all the tools needed to be top 3 IMO. And he only has a couple bad matches... and they aren't that bad.
 


S+:
Kabal

S:
Kenshi, Sonya, Smoke, Freddy, JAX

A+:
Kitana, Kung Lao, Johnny Cage, Sektor, Reptile, Cyrax, Raiden

A:
Shang Tsung, Quan Chi, Skarlet, Ermac, Mileena

A-:
Rain, Liu Kang, Nightwolf, Sub-Zero

B:
CSZ, Sindel, Stryker

B-:
Noob Saibot, Scorpion, Sheeva

C:
Baraka, Jade, Kano
I've mentioned this before but why are people using S+ as a tier?

Firstly it's not S+, it's SS and it specifically means something. It denotes a character that is so broken it is automatically banned from tournament play. An SS character is something like Akuma in Super SF2 Turbo - Kabal's IAFBs just don't compare. In this modern day and age I doubt we will ever see an SS tier character again because of patching etc.

So unless you are specifically saying you want Kabal banned from tournaments then you need to remove the SS tier.

So your tier list would be:

S:
Kabal

A+:
Kenshi, Sonya, Smoke, Freddy, JAX

A:
Kitana, Kung Lao, Johnny Cage, Sektor, Reptile, Cyrax, Raiden

A-:
Shang Tsung, Quan Chi, Skarlet, Ermac, Mileena

B:
Rain, Liu Kang, Nightwolf, Sub-Zero

B-:
CSZ, Sindel, Stryker

C:
Noob Saibot, Scorpion, Sheeva

C-:
Baraka, Jade, Kano


The problem with this is that if you separate tiers by + and - you are saying that the difference is very small. Presumably you are saying that the second tier characters, while not as broken as Kabal, are worlds apart from the lower tiers.

Therefore you have to give that tier its own letter, in this case A.

So your tier list would actually be something like:

S:
Kabal

A:
Kenshi, Sonya, Smoke, Freddy, JAX

B+:
Kitana, Kung Lao, Johnny Cage, Sektor, Reptile, Cyrax, Raiden

B:
Shang Tsung, Quan Chi, Skarlet, Ermac, Mileena

B-:
Rain, Liu Kang, Nightwolf, Sub-Zero

C+:
CSZ, Sindel, Stryker

C:
Noob Saibot, Scorpion, Sheeva

C-:
Baraka, Jade, Kano


With a tier list like this, you are saying that Kabal is broken but not stupidly enough to get him banned, there is a strong second tier of 5 characters which stand alone, then 2 further lower tiers (each sub-divided into 3).
 

sub_on_dubs

Online Scrub Lord
That doesn't matter... that's player skill bro. It's about tools and MUs with other characters when talking about a tier list. And KL has all the tools needed to be top 3 IMO. And he only has a couple bad matches... and they aren't that bad.
I'll believe it when I see it.
 

SunnyD

24 Low Hat!
He could be top 5. I just haven't seen it done at majors. Anytime someone has used him he's been bodied.
What, you dont think South American tournaments count? You dont think that his wins in "non-major" tournaments are credits his character and his skill? When ETC Mcfly goes to EVO, he will demonstrate to you all how good competition is in other countries and continents. Because his character's good, and because he is good.

Also, Mesmerize is a good "American" KL player if you only credit people who go to "majors".

But man.... you cant say stuff like that. "havent seen it done at majors..." Just cause it aint American doesnt mean it doesnt count. Foreign tournies can be as competitive or more competitive than american tournies, and you'd be wise to acknowledge this.

I'll believe it when I see it.
By the love of god stop talking or i'll smack you.
 

STB Sgt Reed

Online Warrior
What, you dont think South American tournaments count? You dont think that his wins in "non-major" tournaments are credits his character and his skill? When ETC Mcfly goes to EVO, he will demonstrate to you all how good competition is in other countries and continents. Because his character's good, and because he is good.

Also, Mesmerize is a good "American" KL player if you only credit people who go to "majors".

But man.... you cant say stuff like that. "havent seen it done at majors..." Just cause it aint American doesnt mean it doesnt count. Foreign tournies can be as competitive or more competitive than american tournies, and you'd be wise to acknowledge this.


By the love of god stop talking or i'll smack you.
*facepalm* ... guys... that doesn't matter, that's player skill.
 

STB Sgt Reed

Online Warrior
Yeah well player skill shouldnt be insulted for being foreign.
I agree, but how good ETC McFly is doesn't decide where KL should be on the MU and neither does no one placing with him as BlueBalledSubby thinks.

Look at Sub, Tom Brady has placed top 8 with sub tons of times, but that doesn't mean sub is top 10.
 

xenogorgeous

.... they mostly come at night. Mostly.
This list is pretty good, well done, good job, Tom ! :cool:

I don't know if its 100% realistic accurate, since this game has room for some crazy variables into and during matches, but, nevertheless , is a god damn good try.

I think Skarlet is so underrated, and deadly, that she can put any other character into some uncomfortable situations : if they block, Skarlet can build meter faster than any other character, if they don't block, Skarlet has some so nasty "guess game" options, that playing against her, is hard for any distracted player ....

I think Evo results for Skarlet character, can help to classify Skarlet in her truly correct tier list position, let's see.

Other than that, the list is cool, but, I cannot understand why Kano figures so low ranked .... imo , this character had no chance, never, to show his true potential in this game ....

And Jade, well, she is low tier, but, her ex boomerang seems to be an underrated tool , a bit way underexplored into her A game , playing at highest level ........ :D
 

Gengar

Hypnosis > Dreameater (its a reset)
I've mentioned this before but why are people using S+ as a tier?

Firstly it's not S+, it's SS and it specifically means something. It denotes a character that is so broken it is automatically banned from tournament play. An SS character is something like Akuma in Super SF2 Turbo - Kabal's IAFBs just don't compare. In this modern day and age I doubt we will ever see an SS tier character again because of patching etc.

So unless you are specifically saying you want Kabal banned from tournaments then you need to remove the SS tier.
are you really complaining about what fucking letter grades hes giving them? youve got to be kidding me. he couldve used different pictures of small fuzzy animals to differentiate each tier and it woulda been fine. quit being a stickler. the over all idea gets across, despite your obnoxious and unnecessary rant about how S+ MEANS BANNED ONLY. NO EXCEPTIONS.

Tom Brady i find your tier list to be spot on, and even tho it pains me to see my favorite vengeful hellspawn at the bottom, deep down i know its true. not only does this tier list accurately display characters tier placement, it also seems to reflect well on how the characters fare in tournament play as well (A+ and above all consistently make great tourney showings, regardless of who is playing them, where A- and below characters can do well, but usually its one or two good PLAYERS [slips <3, detroit, LotF, ect] that really know how to implement the tools of their character that put that character into good tourney standings.)
 

Metzos

You will BOW to me!
I agree, but how good ETC McFly is doesn't decide where KL should be on the MU and neither does no one placing with him as BlueBalledSubby thinks.

Look at Sub, Tom Brady has placed top 8 with sub tons of times, but that doesn't mean sub is top 10.
True. But SZ does not have the tools KL has and especially in the US we have yet to see a good KL, except probably Forever King. I m not even counting PL's KL cause thats prehistoric news.
 

SunnyD

24 Low Hat!
True. But SZ does not have the tools KL has and especially in the US we have yet to see a good KL, except probably Forever King. I m not even counting PL's KL cause thats prehistoric news.
lol i forgot to mention Forever King. Best KL in the states right now.
 

swag1

EX smash solves all
i agree with every single bit but if i had to change anything i would move smoke down and sektor up. other than that very good.
 

Zoidberg747

My blades will find your heart
S+:
Kabal

S:
Kenshi, Sonya, Smoke, Freddy, JAX

A+:
Kitana, Kung Lao, Johnny Cage, Sektor, Reptile, Cyrax, Raiden

A:
Shang Tsung, Quan Chi, Skarlet, Ermac, Mileena

A-:
Rain, Liu Kang, Nightwolf, Sub-Zero

B+:
CSZ, Sindel, Noob Saibot

B:
Scorpion, Stryker, Sheeva

C:
Baraka, Jade, Kano

updated..

thoughts?

again, explanations and discussion on this on stream tonight. ill post the link and time this afternoon.
I may be the only one to really disagree with the lower tiers. Baraka beats these seven characters IMO:

Sheeva: Builds much more meter than her(Any string canceled into slices=50% of one bar, 2,2 1+2+slices=75% of one bar). Baraka has a much safer armor move to get in(Telestomp can just be njp'd). Baraka has F4 which can reset the opponent into pressure, eliminating wakeups. He is much better in the corner due to his 50/50(F2, B3,1). He has about as high damage ending in resets. And his matchup chart is much better than hers, he may not win many but GGA Jeremiah has her losing most matchups either 4-6 or 3-7. Baraka only has two 3-7s. Baraka has better pokes, better footsies. His strings are slow like hers. The only thing she has that he doesn't is a GTFO move with Armor on her special grab.

Kano: Kano is very underrated, but he is definitely near the bottom. Zoning is bad compared to most characters. Terrible pokes(-13 d1 and -7 d3, slow and short d4). His pressure is not that great, he does not build meter as well(still well). His most damaging combos are as high as Baraka's reset combos. Baraka has a much better corner game and can play much better footsies. Kano's only real way to get in quick is Ball, and that is full combo punishable. So is EX blade charge but I can do that to things on reaction. Kano has a better throw and better range on his strings, but the damage and meter build still make him inferior

Scorpion: What can I say, some of the worst pokes in the game. Baraka has a much better d4(+13 on hit as opposed to 0 on hit). D4 takedown is easily baitable and punished with a counterpoke. Scorp has the vortex but Baraka has the reset, imo both great tools. Scorpion is much more unsafe than Baraka when it comes to specials. Baraka's corner game is better, his footsies are better, his meter building is better. And..well..look above lol.

Jade: I dont believe this hype train at all. I think saying she has great footsies and therefore doesnt suck is a copout(Same with all characters, including mine). Any great player can have good footsies, that is just a skill. Yes she can control space, but not very well. Her damage is lacking and she has no way to reset the opponent. Most of her best ways to control space are at best neutral on block allowing the opponent to dash in freely. Her strings are mediocre and they don't lead to much damage. EX Glow is a decent tool, but still not great. Her pokes are much worse then Baraka's, and he can control spcae with his d4 while she cannot. We have a +11 on block sweep that can be used for footsies and completely stopping her wakeup. Baraka is much better in the corner, can build more meter, and has just as good if not better footsies IMO.

Stryker: Ill probably get blown up for this, but I dont believe Stryker is that great. His zoning is good but zoning in this metagame is overrated unless you are kabal, kenshi, or Freddy. All you have to do is crouch and dash block and his zoning becomes ineffective. He has a good armor move on EX roll toss, but Baraka has EX blade charge. He may have decent pokes, I dont know because there is no found frame data. I do know that the range on D4 is better on Baraka. In the corner Baraka is much better, better meter building, better footsies, +11 sweep. I think these two are very close, but the real reason I think Baraka beats him is his meter building and reset. These things are very overlooked when talking about Baraka, and when you can prevent wakeup attacks and get back in whenever the opponent fires a projectile, you are at a slight advantage.

Noob: His zoning is pretty good, but not impossible. His damage is not great, and up close he struggles. Her doesnt have nearly as good footsies or meter building. His pokes are worse(at least D4 is). Baraka has much better options up close(frame traps, strings into slices for meter). His sweep is a much better footsie tool than Noob's upknee because sweep can be canceled into blade charge to stop dashes. Once again he has a much better reset(100% instead of portal resets that may or may not work). Noob has more damaging corner combos but it puts the opponent on the ground. Baraka has 30-34% combos that reset the opponent into another 50/50 guess. He has a better overhead as well that can be canceled into slices for more meter gain. Noob beats him IMO in damage and zoning, but beats him in footsies, meter building, corner pressure and resets.

Nightwolf: This is totally debatable, but I kind of want to stir the pot. Nightwolf has better damage and better launchers. He also has just as good footsies as Baraka. However, his spirit charge can be neutral ducked while Baraka's blade charge cannot. He does not build nearly as much meter, and his corner game is slightly below Baraka's. Baraka has the reset while Nightwolf usually ends combos in Spirit charge to knock you away. He has slightly worse pokes because of his lacking range of D4 and 7 frame d3. His unblockable lightning is easily baited, but can possibly be used to control space. I think this is very close, but I believe the F4 reset makes Baraka a notch above Nightwolf. This is very very debatable though.

So at the very least, I believe Scorpion and Sheeva should be moved back down and Baraka up with Stryker and Nightwolf. Of course I have been saying this forever and am always usually ignored, but this is my humble opinion.
 

STB Sgt Reed

Online Warrior
True. But SZ does not have the tools KL has and especially in the US we have yet to see a good KL, except probably Forever King. I m not even counting PL's KL cause thats prehistoric news.
That's my point... Sub doesn't have the tools to be up high, KL has the tools to be top 3 IMO. That's all regardless of what people have done with him and how good the players that play him may or may not be.
 

AK L0rdoftheFLY

I hatelove this game
I may be the only one to really disagree with the lower tiers. Baraka beats these seven characters IMO:

Sheeva: Builds much more meter than her(Any string canceled into slices=50% of one bar, 2,2 1+2+slices=75% of one bar). Baraka has a much safer armor move to get in(Telestomp can just be njp'd). Baraka has F4 which can reset the opponent into pressure, eliminating wakeups. He is much better in the corner due to his 50/50(F2, B3,1). He has about as high damage ending in resets. And his matchup chart is much better than hers, he may not win many but GGA Jeremiah has her losing most matchups either 4-6 or 3-7. Baraka only has two 3-7s. Baraka has better pokes, better footsies. His strings are slow like hers. The only thing she has that he doesn't is a GTFO move with Armor on her special grab.

Kano: Kano is very underrated, but he is definitely near the bottom. Zoning is bad compared to most characters. Terrible pokes(-13 d1 and -7 d3, slow and short d4). His pressure is not that great, he does not build meter as well(still well). His most damaging combos are as high as Baraka's reset combos. Baraka has a much better corner game and can play much better footsies. Kano's only real way to get in quick is Ball, and that is full combo punishable. So is EX blade charge but I can do that to things on reaction. Kano has a better throw and better range on his strings, but the damage and meter build still make him inferior

Scorpion: What can I say, some of the worst pokes in the game. Baraka has a much better d4(+13 on hit as opposed to 0 on hit). D4 takedown is easily baitable and punished with a counterpoke. Scorp has the vortex but Baraka has the reset, imo both great tools. Scorpion is much more unsafe than Baraka when it comes to specials. Baraka's corner game is better, his footsies are better, his meter building is better. And..well..look above lol.

Jade: I dont believe this hype train at all. I think saying she has great footsies and therefore doesnt suck is a copout(Same with all characters, including mine). Any great player can have good footsies, that is just a skill. Yes she can control space, but not very well. Her damage is lacking and she has no way to reset the opponent. Most of her best ways to control space are at best neutral on block allowing the opponent to dash in freely. Her strings are mediocre and they don't lead to much damage. EX Glow is a decent tool, but still not great. Her pokes are much worse then Baraka's, and he can control spcae with his d4 while she cannot. We have a +11 on block sweep that can be used for footsies and completely stopping her wakeup. Baraka is much better in the corner, can build more meter, and has just as good if not better footsies IMO.

Stryker: Ill probably get blown up for this, but I dont believe Stryker is that great. His zoning is good but zoning in this metagame is overrated unless you are kabal, kenshi, or Freddy. All you have to do is crouch and dash block and his zoning becomes ineffective. He has a good armor move on EX roll toss, but Baraka has EX blade charge. He may have decent pokes, I dont know because there is no found frame data. I do know that the range on D4 is better on Baraka. In the corner Baraka is much better, better meter building, better footsies, +11 sweep. I think these two are very close, but the real reason I think Baraka beats him is his meter building and reset. These things are very overlooked when talking about Baraka, and when you can prevent wakeup attacks and get back in whenever the opponent fires a projectile, you are at a slight advantage.

Noob: His zoning is pretty good, but not impossible. His damage is not great, and up close he struggles. Her doesnt have nearly as good footsies or meter building. His pokes are worse(at least D4 is). Baraka has much better options up close(frame traps, strings into slices for meter). His sweep is a much better footsie tool than Noob's upknee because sweep can be canceled into blade charge to stop dashes. Once again he has a much better reset(100% instead of portal resets that may or may not work). Noob has more damaging corner combos but it puts the opponent on the ground. Baraka has 30-34% combos that reset the opponent into another 50/50 guess. He has a better overhead as well that can be canceled into slices for more meter gain. Noob beats him IMO in damage and zoning, but beats him in footsies, meter building, corner pressure and resets.

Nightwolf: This is totally debatable, but I kind of want to stir the pot. Nightwolf has better damage and better launchers. He also has just as good footsies as Baraka. However, his spirit charge can be neutral ducked while Baraka's blade charge cannot. He does not build nearly as much meter, and his corner game is slightly below Baraka's. Baraka has the reset while Nightwolf usually ends combos in Spirit charge to knock you away. He has slightly worse pokes because of his lacking range of D4 and 7 frame d3. His unblockable lightning is easily baited, but can possibly be used to control space. I think this is very close, but I believe the F4 reset makes Baraka a notch above Nightwolf. This is very very debatable though.

So at the very least, I believe Scorpion and Sheeva should be moved back down and Baraka up with Stryker and Nightwolf. Of course I have been saying this forever and am always usually ignored, but this is my humble opinion.
What is Barajas blade charge on block? You know whatse can be neutral ducked? Blade spin. So what if shoulder is duckable. His meter is fine. 122shoulder build right under 50% and 1221 shoulder is just over 50% of a bar.
 

sub_on_dubs

Online Scrub Lord
What, you dont think South American tournaments count? You dont think that his wins in "non-major" tournaments are credits his character and his skill? When ETC Mcfly goes to EVO, he will demonstrate to you all how good competition is in other countries and continents. Because his character's good, and because he is good.

Also, Mesmerize is a good "American" KL player if you only credit people who go to "majors".

But man.... you cant say stuff like that. "havent seen it done at majors..." Just cause it aint American doesnt mean it doesnt count. Foreign tournies can be as competitive or more competitive than american tournies, and you'd be wise to acknowledge this.


By the love of god stop talking or i'll smack you.
Dude, shut the hell up. You took that way out of context.
 

Espio

Kokomo
I may be the only one to really disagree with the lower tiers. Baraka beats these seven characters IMO:


Stryker: Ill probably get blown up for this, but I dont believe Stryker is that great. His zoning is good but zoning in this metagame is overrated unless you are kabal, kenshi, or Freddy. All you have to do is crouch and dash block and his zoning becomes ineffective. He has a good armor move on EX roll toss, but Baraka has EX blade charge. He may have decent pokes, I dont know because there is no found frame data. I do know that the range on D4 is better on Baraka. In the corner Baraka is much better, better meter building, better footsies, +11 sweep. I think these two are very close, but the real reason I think Baraka beats him is his meter building and reset. These things are very overlooked when talking about Baraka, and when you can prevent wakeup attacks and get back in whenever the opponent fires a projectile, you are at a slight advantage.



So at the very least, I believe Scorpion and Sheeva should be moved back down and Baraka up with Stryker and Nightwolf. Of course I have been saying this forever and am always usually ignored, but this is my humble opinion.
Whose going to blow you up? You deserve the right to voice your opinion on Baraka and any other character for that matter:).

I think overall they're about the same possibly...Stryker also has a reset just like Baraka and Stryker has his gun cancel mind games, respectable counterzoning (Stryker struggles less against zoners, particularly against Kenshi, while I think Kenshi gives Baraka more trouble).

Stryker has a 6 frame down 1. I believe a 7 frame down 3 and standard down 4 speed. Baraka has better range on his down 4 and a down 1 slightly similar to Kitana's.

Both have a good armored move that puts zoning in check.

Damage output appears similar and both have low-high mix ups

I think Stryker has an edge over Baraka, Stryker does much better against zoners with his meterless counterzoning options that free up meter for other purposes.


Edit: If Stryker had complete frame data we could compare and contrast better, but it's missing his +, -, and neutral numbers for each move.
 

Zoidberg747

My blades will find your heart
What is Barajas blade charge on block? You know whatse can be neutral ducked? Blade spin. So what if shoulder is duckable. His meter is fine. 122shoulder build right under 50% and 1221 shoulder is just over 50% of a bar.
You know what most Baraka players never use unless it is an anti air? Blade spin :p Blade charge from max range is -16 so you definitely have me on that point. Shoulder is a much better move. However those meter builds are still not as good as Baraka's because they put you at -3, while ANY string canceled in to slices builds around half a bar and leaves you neutral on block. I never said his meter building was bad, because IMO Baraka is one of the best meter builders in the game.

Like I said I think these characters are very very close to each other. I think the reset sets Baraka one tiny little step above Nightwolf, but that is me personally and I am sure there are things that could put Nightwolf slighty above Baraka. The point I was trying to make in that post is it is dumb to have him with Kano and Jade. I have Kano as a secondary and while he is more viable then many claim he is also the second worst in the game, IMO. Sheeva is the worst, seriously no one has done what GGA Jeremiah has done with that character. Look at his matchup chart and tell me she deserves to not be in the lowest tier. I already explained the Jade one. I believe He should at the very least be up with Stryker and Noob, I would be fine as long as he is not in the bottom tier(Because I know he is not bottom five).

Whose going to blow you up? You deserve the right to voice your opinion on Baraka and any other character for that matter:).

I think overall they're about the same possibly...Stryker also has a reset just like Baraka and Stryker has his gun cancel mind games, respectable counterzoning (Stryker struggles less against zoners, particularly against Kenshi, while I think Kenshi gives Baraka more trouble).

Stryker has a 6 frame down 1. I believe a 7 frame down 3 and standard down 4 speed. Baraka has better range on his down 4 and a down 1 slightly similar to Kitana's.

Both have a good armored move that puts zoning in check.

Damage output appears similar and both have low-high mix ups

I think Stryker has an edge over Baraka, Stryker does much better against zoners with his meterless counterzoning options that free up meter for other purposes.


Edit: If Stryker had complete frame data we could compare and contrast better, but it's missing his +, -, and neutral numbers for each move.
I was unaware of the reset. You may be right in that he has a slight edge, but I believe they still are close to even. We will have to wait on that frame data to compare the characters better. The only characters I think Baraka 100% beats are Sheeva, Jade, Kano, and Scorpion. The other three are kind of debatable. I dont think anyone in this game is unviable no matter what top players say. If GGA Jeremiah can get top 25 at MLG with the worst character in the game, who can honestly say it is impossible to win with these chars?
 

Under_The_Mayo

Master of Quanculations
I think there's a good chance of KL going way up if Foxy and Glue tear shit up. I've seen the euro streams and I've never seen KL's so vicious. And I think Skarlett belongs in the top, but no one has proved it.

S+ Kabal

S Smoke, Skarlett, Kung Lao, Kenshi, Jax
 

SunnyD

24 Low Hat!
Dude, shut the hell up. You took that way out of context.
I read between the lines. The manner at which you posted suggested that you thought only "american majors" show a true measure of skill. I didnt take it out of context or warp your words, i just saw the meaning behind them.