Discussion MKXL Post 3/29/16 Tier List Thread

[STRYKIE]

Didn'r they buff her wakeup? Everyone says even after the patch "But her wake-ups are bad so she's balanced bruh"

Her wake-up got "buffed" from "you can keep pressing buttons on me and I'll get butt raped" to "if most characters stop and look for my wake-up, I'll get butt raped, and if they didn't my reward was miniscule"

In overall terms of pros and cons, variation-wide, and also considering buffs to other poor wake-ups (such and Jacqui's and Scorpion's) D'Vorah might actually have the worst wake-up/reversal economics in MKXL now.

She's excellent at a lot of other things, but if she's S-Tier now, it's exclusively because of the fall from grace concerning other strong characters. Not this weird "OMFG HER ONLY WEAKNESS IS NOW COMPLETELY GONE" propaganda, when again, in the grand scheme of the current meta, she's arguably worse off in that respect.

 

[Bruno-NeoSpace]

Kung Lao was S tier, and now they nerfed his EX hat to be +7 (it was +12), his JI2 is not overpowered anymore but it's still very good, it's easier to punish his Cyclone and his EX hat got buffed... so... SURELY HE IS A- now -_-

Slowest in the game, no real offense, always has to give up his turn, no good true mids, his 'pressure' all loses to anybody with a 6f move.
He cant escape pressure himself without ex spinning in alot of cases because his fastest other than spin is 8f, which gets low profiled by alot too, so usually has to commit to a 9f d4, which again if blocked he loses his turn.

No real way to open people up other than grab. His biggest strength isnt even that good, in that you cant jump at him when he has meter, and you cant do shit thats -7. Big whoop.

Your turn, tell me how he's actually any good

For the record, I dropped him when he was still +12 because all these issues existed then. He was never as good as people thought he was in comparison to the rest of the cast.

(speaking about tempest) Godlike JI2, S1 is +1, 1,1 is +1, 1,1,2,1,2 breaks armor and it's just -3, 2,1 is -1 and +25 on hit, F1,4 is a useful hard knockdown, his F2 is mid + good range + 11 startup frames + just -1 on block and it is +15 on hit, his F2,1 is hit confirmable, he's got a overhead combo starter and a overhead string (B2,2) which are 18f that's the average speed of overhead combo starters in this game, his F4 is a hard knockdown overhead, his B3,2,1 is a very good normal and string, he's got a lot of low strings - F1,4 (hard knockdown) , F2,1,D1 , F2,3 , F3,D3 ; he's got a divekick which is -38 on block but it's 6f startup and it combos on hit, he's got a 15f mid projectile that can change its trajectory, a godlike special move that is the spin, you can held the animation to trick your oponent, the EX version has armor, it's -28 on block but you don't even need to use it because most times your oponent will respect you, he's got a good teleport and the EX version has armor, he's got the hat spin that is an offensive and defensive toll and the EX version is +7 on block and +40 on hit. He's got much more things. lol.

Tempest is still very good!

 

[DDutchguy]

Prepatch no one ever played Crystalline properly. Now they're catching on to what he can do.

Shoutouts to M2Dave's godlike Crystalline.

 

[GAV]

This game is very well balanced. Anyone who can see past the ups and downs can see it.

The single most unbalancing force in the game right now is GM Sub Zero because he has no even matchups. Everyone he matches up with, he either beats handily - or can't beat.

Death to The Clone!!! <--- (Not really, just for dramatic effect)

I'm not saying nerf GM. I'm saying redesign him so he's viable in all matchups and not broken in some.

 

[ienjoywinning]

Kung Lao was S tier, and now they nerfed his EX hat to be +7 (it was +12), his JI2 is not overpowered anymore but it's still very good, it's easier to punish his Cyclone and his EX hat got buffed... so... SURELY HE IS A- now -_-



(speaking about tempest) Godlike JI2, S1 is +1, 1,1 is +1, 1,1,2,1,2 breaks armor and it's just -3, 2,1 is -1 and +25 on hit, F1,4 is a useful hard knockdown, his F2 is mid + good range + 11 startup frames + just -1 on block and it is +15 on hit, his F2,1 is hit confirmable, he's got a overhead combo starter and a overhead string (B2,2) which are 18f that's the average speed of overhead combo starters in this game, his F4 is a hard knockdown overhead, his B3,2,1 is a very good normal and string, he's got a lot of low strings - F1,4 (hard knockdown) , F2,1,D1 , F2,3 , F3,D3 ; he's got a divekick which is -38 on block but it's 6f startup and it combos on hit, he's got a 15f mid projectile that can change its trajectory, a godlike special move that is the spin, you can held the animation to trick your oponent, the EX version has armor, it's -28 on block but you don't even need to use it because most times your oponent will respect you, he's got a good teleport and the EX version has armor, he's got the hat spin that is an offensive and defensive toll and the EX version is +7 on block and +40 on hit. He's got much more things. lol.

Tempest is still broken!

Hat being +12 was completely fine , He wasn't broken and he still got nerfed... And i dont think you realize that every universal nerf also hurt him bad.... Ie the chip nerf , and the grab tech nerf which were a big part of his game... Both nerfed + the other nerfs to him. I dont know why do you think he is still s tier....

 

[Nausea]

ermac is S ? Why ?

Becuase all 3 or his variations handle the entire cast and Spectral is a monster.

 

[Geoffmeister]

Ughh.... Why does TYM still not make any variation tier lists..?

Ermac S Tier? I assume you mean Spectral, where would you place Mystic/MoS @Derptile ?

Ermac where he belongs.

Good shit.

I don't mean to be offensive, but it will probably come out that way, so I apologize in advance.
You main this variation the "longest" that I know of, agree with it's tier-list placement and get no results whatsoever (while on EU Xbox, easily the console with the least amount of established tournament players). I also assume you mostly play online, therefore potentially making Spectrals offense a little bit better than how it actually is. Am I wrong in assuming these things?

Spectral - while having stupid "safe" 50/50's, which you can backdash or blow up with armored launchers, given the person you're playing actually knows anything about prioritizing meter or doing labwork - has a huge neutral flaw that can be countered even by the worst neutral of that of Master of Souls.
He suffers from a lot of bad MU's, not because his offense isn't extremely strong but because any competent player would never let Spectral get close enough to attempt it.

If Spectral is lacking some of the most promising tools that make characters win tournaments such as:
- gapless pressure
- plus after pressure/mixups (while retaining damage potential, not exclusive to the corner)
- safe mixups (with damage potential, no gaps)
- reaching advancing mids (we're not counting f4, because it gets low-profiled)
- space control
- punish capability
- oki
Why do you agree on his placement?

Don't get me wrong, I think he's really good and probably the best on paper but I have done serious research figuring out Spectrals best MU's, pro's and con's of everything he can dish out and there are about 3 characters where Spectral doesn't get shut down in his offense and/or fundamental play. Going by that logic, he can't be much higher than MoS/Mystic. So yet again, I find myself curious in your opinion.

Also, @A F0xy Grampa, I respect you as a player but (repeatedly) claiming Kung Lao is bottom is beyond ridiculous. No character with a 7 frame launching armor, a meterless launching special at -3 on block, a decent true advancing mid, a launching divekick, an unblockable teleport-grab that can convert into 40%+ , a 5-hit gapless string, and a plus option CANNOT be deemed as bottom tier. All of which pales in comparison to Piercing obviously, but hey, just cause the previous #1 got justifiable nerfs doesn't mean he's Tanya'd, alls I'm sayin.

 

[Bruno-NeoSpace]

Hat being +12 was completely fine , He wasn't broken and he still got nerfed... And i dont think you realize that every universal nerf also hurt him bad.... Ie the chip nerf , and the grab tech nerf which were a big part of his game... Both nerfed + the other nerfs to him. I dont know why do you think he is still s tier....

He wasn't broken? Everyone was using him. lol. Every top 8 there was a Tempest Lao. The universal chip nerf hurted ALL characters. They nerfed a little bit the throw but it's still very good - 12% damage (2% damage is guaranteed even If the oponent techs it), 50/50, big hitbox and plus frames on hit.

 

[ienjoywinning]

He wasn't broken? Everyone was using him. lol. Every top 8 there was a Tempest Lao. The universal chip nerf hurted ALL characters. They nerfed a little bit the throw but it's still very good - 12% damage (2% damage is guaranteed even If the oponent techs it), 50/50, big hitbox and plus frames on hit.

Just because everyone used him doesnt mean he is broken , it just means that he was a really good character , Not broken

 

[Bruno-NeoSpace]

Just because everyone used him doesnt mean he is broken , it just means that he was a really good character , Not broken

No character with a 7 frame launching armor, a meterless launching special at -3 on block, a decent true advancing mid, a launching divekick, an unblockable teleport-grab that can convert into 40%+ , a 5-hit gapless string, and a plus option CANNOT be deemed as bottom tier. All of which pales in comparison to Piercing obviously, but hey, just cause the previous #1 got justifiable nerfs doesn't mean he's Tanya'd, alls I'm sayin.

Godlike JI2, S1 is +1, 1,1 is +1, 1,1,2,1,2 breaks armor and it's just -3, 2,1 is -1 and +25 on hit, F1,4 is a useful hard knockdown, his F2 is mid + good range + 11 startup frames + just -1 on block and it is +15 on hit, his F2,1 is hit confirmable, he's got a overhead combo starter and a overhead string (B2,2) which are 18f that's the average speed of overhead combo starters in this game, his F4 is a hard knockdown overhead, his B3,2,1 is a very good normal and string, he's got a lot of low strings - F1,4 (hard knockdown) , F2,1,D1 , F2,3 , F3,D3 ; he's got a divekick which is -38 on block but it's 6f startup and it combos on hit, he's got a 15f mid projectile that can change its trajectory, a godlike special move that is the spin, you can held the animation to trick your oponent, the EX version has armor, it's -28 on block but you don't even need to use it because most times your oponent will respect you, he's got a good teleport and the EX version has armor, he's got the hat spin that is an offensive and defensive toll and the EX version is +7 on block and +40 on hit. He's got much more things. lol.

 

[ienjoywinning]

He wasn't broken? Everyone was using him. lol. Every top 8 there was a Tempest Lao. The universal chip nerf hurted ALL characters. They nerfed a little bit the throw but it's still very good - 12% damage (2% damage is guaranteed even If the oponent techs it), 50/50, big hitbox and plus frames on hit.

Yeah those 2 are correct while the no1 lao player isn't qq

 

[MadeOfMetal]

Time to stop beating around the bush and get to it. Read it and weep. The tier list is made regarding the best variation of the character.

S Tier: Mileena, Kano, Johnny Cage, D'Vorah, Takeda, Ermac, Alien(-)

A+ Tier: Jax, Sub-Zero, Quan Chi, Sonya, Shinnok, Kung Jin, Liu Kang, Tremor, Ferra Torr(+)

A Tier: Kotal, Scorpion, Jason, Erron Black, Predator, Reptile(+), Cassie(+), Triborg(?+), Leatherface(?)

A- Tier: Kung Lao, Goro, Raiden, Kitana(-), Jacqui(+?)

B+ tier: Kenshi, Tanya(?)

IDK LOL: Bo Rai Cho

+ : Means a character can move up in the future
- : Means a character can move down in the future
? : Not sure, a good guesstimate. Either due to lack of players since a patch or a new Character

Very nice List I agree with all but Triborg, I agree if its Sektor, but if its Cyrax or Cyber Sub Zero I don't feel Cyrax and CSZ is A tier. Maybe you should do Triborg Separate to each character. or just replace Triborg on there with who you think is the best of the 4. that would add alot of clarity. anyways good work.

 

[Derptile]

Ughh.... Why does TYM still not make any variation tier lists..?

Because no one wants to read through all that shit, and all the conversations happening only regard the best variation anyways.

I don't mean to be offensive, but it will probably come out that way, so I apologize in advance.
You main this variation the "longest" that I know of, agree with it's tier-list placement and get no results whatsoever (while on EU Xbox, easily the console with the least amount of established tournament players). I also assume you mostly play online, therefore potentially making Spectrals offense a little bit better than how it actually is. Am I wrong in assuming these things?

Spectral - while having stupid "safe" 50/50's, which you can backdash or blow up with armored launchers, given the person you're playing actually knows anything about prioritizing meter or doing labwork - has a huge neutral flaw that can be countered even by the worst neutral of that of Master of Souls.
He suffers from a lot of bad MU's, not because his offense isn't extremely strong but because any competent player would never let Spectral get close enough to attempt it.

If Spectral is lacking some of the most promising tools that make characters win tournaments such as:
- gapless pressure
- plus after pressure/mixups (while retaining damage potential, not exclusive to the corner)
- safe mixups (with damage potential, no gaps)
- reaching advancing mids (we're not counting f4, because it gets low-profiled)
- space control
- punish capability
Why do you agree on his placement?

I was gonna put him in A+, then I went through the forums and saw what people were saying about him. Then I objectively looked at what tools he could bring to the table compared to other characters and conferred with my panel of experts and came to an agreement that he belongs in S tier.


Also Kung Lao most likely wasn't even top 5 prepatch, just saying.

 

[TamedLizard]

Wasn't expecting to see Mac at the top, but I'll buy it. Everything else seems spot on. Especially BRC.

 

[Colest]

Time to stop beating around the bush and get to it. Read it and weep. The tier list is made regarding the best variation of the character.

S Tier: Mileena, Kano, Johnny Cage, D'Vorah, Takeda, Ermac, Alien(-)

A+ Tier: Jax, Sub-Zero, Quan Chi, Sonya, Shinnok, Kung Jin, Liu Kang, Tremor, Ferra Torr(+)

A Tier: Kotal, Scorpion, Jason, Erron Black, Predator, Reptile(+), Cassie(+), Triborg(?+), Leatherface(?)

A- Tier: Kung Lao, Goro, Raiden, Kitana(-), Jacqui(+)

B+ tier: Kenshi, Tanya(?)

IDK LOL: Bo Rai Cho

+ : Means a character can move up in the future
- : Means a character can move down in the future
? : Not sure, a good guesstimate. Either due to lack of players since a patch or a new Character

From top to bottom.

- Ermac is too high
- Sub is too high
- Tremor is too high
- Lao is too low
- Tanya is too low
- Bo is likely B(+) tier short of some amazing tech surfacing.

It's a pretty agreeable tier list however.

 

[Nausea]

Ughh.... Why does TYM still not make any variation tier lists..?

Ermac S Tier? I assume you mean Spectral, where would you place Mystic/MoS @Derptile ?



I don't mean to be offensive, but it will probably come out that way, so I apologize in advance.
You main this variation the "longest" that I know of, agree with it's tier-list placement and get no results whatsoever (while on EU Xbox, easily the console with the least amount of established tournament players). I also assume you mostly play online, therefore potentially making Spectrals offense a little bit better than how it actually is. Am I wrong in assuming these things?

I didn't think 6 words on my elation of Ermac being top tier in Derps tier list would merit a book and a personal insult, but there you go! I would take offence if your opinion mattered to me, which it does not. (Sorry if that sounds offensive, Its not supposed to.)

"Longest"? Why the quotations? I either am or I am not that you know of. Yes I agree with his tier placement and this is where it gets a bit personal eh? I have had no results what so ever? I placed top 16 at my first Major at RFD (October 2015) (using a PS4 pad which made my hands cry) Won a few regionals, missed Viennality due to funds unfortunately and placed 13th at Hypespotting being put out by UsedForGlue's Mileena (which is an awful MU for Spectral) where did you place at these 3 majors out of curiosity? I play online alot yes and granted, there aren't alot of high level players available to play on XB1 but it dosen't stop me from finding good/great players and grinding MU's. I play alot offline also and attend my local every week to grind match ups with great players such as @Youphemism & @Scott The Scot who are also now great friends to me So yeah, you are wrong to assume these things and to assume I have had no results.

I'll answer the rest later. DINNERS OOT!

Dinner was magic btw. Ribs and homemade fries. Topper. The rest of your book is mostly downplay tbh. There are things wrong with him of course but I don't wanna get into a mad heated TYM debate on why my character is good and why I disagree with you. It is really monotonous to me in all honesty.

 

[YoloRoll1stHit]

Foxy grampa is suffering Wound Cowboy's downplaying syndrome (he said BS Shinnok is mid tier, not high mid tier, just mid tier)

 

[Derptile]

I support derptile no matter what

Actually, what are your thoughts on the list? lol

 

[Prinz]

Derptile for president!

 

[Scott The Scot]

I didn't think 6 words on my elation of Ermac being top tier in Derps tier list would merit a book and a personal insult, but there you go! I would take offence if your opinion mattered to me, which it does not. (Sorry if that sounds offensive, Its not supposed to.)

"Longest"? Why the quotations? I either am or I am not that you know of. Yes I agree with his tier placement and this is where it gets a bit personal eh? I have had no results what so ever? I placed top 16 at my first Major at RFD (October 2015) (using a PS4 pad which made my hands cry) Won a few regionals, missed Viennality due to funds unfortunately and placed 13th at Hypespotting being put out by UsedForGlue's Mileena (which is an awful MU for Spectral) where did you place at these 3 majors out of curiosity? I play online alot yes and granted, there aren't alot of high level players available to play on XB1 but it dosen't stop me from finding good/great players and grinding MU's. I play alot offline also and attend my local every week to grind match ups with great players such as @Youphemism & @Scott The Scot who are also now great friends to me So yeah, you are wrong to assume these things and to assume I have had no results.

I'll answer the rest later. DINNERS OOT!

You're making me teary eyed. You're upplaying me as a player though lol "great". You sweet heart :3

I just had dinner. M8 I just had the best burger. mm mmm mmm

 

[x TeeJay o]

Ermac where he belongs.

Good shit.

We need to play again . not in a koth tho! Lol

 

[YoloRoll1stHit]

Yeah, he is. Because he has so much dirt and he has so many flight mixups which are safe on block and can be made plus on block which lead to mid 30's % damage midscreen. He's capable of so much stuff that people just don't know about.

It's not really that safe and gapless. I picked him for like 2 weeks and found a lot of problems with his mixup into flight. He's not garbage like DN Tanya but the problem is: in all Spectral vs anything matchups, both sides have to make a lot of reads to stay safe or to convert hits into combos. Spectral does more damage than almost everyone so he's likely high mid tier, but definitely not S tier. MoS > Spectral imo

 

[x TeeJay o]

This tier list looks really good. Glad someone else thinks dvora is s tier now, feel like i was going crazy, like the only tool she doesnt have is a good wakeup.

Dvorah is S and it's not up for debate lol. It's not even just her pressure, her D3 is soooo retarded but i love it !

 

[Ns_Brutalmileena]

Time to stop beating around the bush and get to it. Read it and weep. The tier list is made regarding the best variation of the character.

S Tier: Mileena, Kano, Johnny Cage, D'Vorah, Takeda, Ermac, Alien(-)

A+ Tier: Jax, Sub-Zero, Quan Chi, Sonya, Shinnok, Kung Jin, Liu Kang, Tremor, Ferra Torr(+)

A Tier: Kotal, Scorpion, Jason, Erron Black, Predator, Reptile(+), Cassie(+), Triborg(?+), Leatherface(?)

A- Tier: Kung Lao, Goro, Raiden, Kitana(-), Jacqui(+?)

B+ tier: Kenshi, Tanya(?)

IDK LOL: Bo Rai Cho

+ : Means a character can move up in the future
- : Means a character can move down in the future
? : Not sure, a good guesstimate. Either due to lack of players since a patch or a new Character.

EDIT: Actually slight edit, if you're lucky to have a character that can function like a Swiss pocket knife and have multiple useful variations that might cover an occasional bad MU then that's taken into consideration a bit. Not in the sense like Kung Jin's Ancestral is dogshit so he drops a tier, I mean like how Ferra Torr or Quan Chi can change up depending on the MU. It should better explain some placements on here, I don't really see anything changing since every character has a best/goto variation anyways.

I agree with everything mostly, this looks great! If I was being picky I personally would move Cassie up 2 tier, Jackie up 1 tier, and kitana up 1 tier. I feel Cassie is still very effective imo. But to each there own. You are the man for this tho i don't think anyone can find alot to pick at!

 

[Tweedy]

Jacqui is in the top half of the cast imo.

Kobu and Possessed are not B or B+ tier imo.

Besides that I like it. I'm glad you have Kotal in the middle of the cast, rather than in the top 5(some people put him there).

Also, it's not anyone's fault but Displacer is nowhere near A- tier. He's probably A+, however, it's the fault of the lack of representation. Character is hard to play really well.