Match Footage - Raiden MIT using Raiden in YOMI finals

[Shark Tank]

oh raiden won another tournment. Better nerf him.

Oh erron black won another tournament. Better leave him alone.

This community is hilarious

Don't worry I got the 12111 string in my normilization sights

༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ·︻̷̿┻̿═━一 12111

 

[delbuster]

its 21122

 

[Shark Tank]

Oh okay I'll edit

 

[Metzos]

Again, rushdown cariation. Seems like good design to me. Or should it be easy to get the rushdown char off you? Maybe it should be easy to rushdown a zoner? Or to zone a counter zoner? Raiden is a balanced strong character outside of his OS.

There are other rushdown chars in the game m8, but none of them do what Raiden can do. Thats my issue. You have a character who can take you in the corner with one move if he touches you and once there, your options are zero to none if the Raiden player knows what he is doing.

 

[delbuster]

There are other rushdown chars in the game m8, but none of them do what Raiden can do. Thats my issue. You have a character who can take you in the corner with one move if he touches you and once there, your options are zero to none if the Raiden player knows what he is doing.

dvorah literally does that. no one is doing it yet, but she can. costs 1 meter to get them into the corner, but it goes into a pure 50/50 directly (unlike raiden not getting a 50/50 off superman), or 45ish damage instead. she also 50/50s on BLOCK off of one of her mid strings if she has full stamina and good execution anywhere on screen.

scorpion doesn't need to carry you to the corner. all his vortex stuff works midscreen. now, his overhead is much slower than raidens, but it can come at different times in the combo.

quan chi is +14 on every mixup he does if he spends a bar, and some form of + if he covers it with bat. he also doesn't need the corner, since trance restand mixup can work anywhere on stage. also it can be timed to be a very hard to block overhead to low or low to overhead.
since his overhead is 15 frames, technically the only 50/50 is the first one out of trance. everything after blocked meterburn ground pound or bat is not a 50/50 because of this, but it's pretty hard to get out of still.

raiden only true 50/50s off of his restand that sacrifices damage. if he supermans you from anywhere not in the half of the screen closest to the corner, he leaves you at full screen where he gets little to no pressure. even if he supermans you into the corner, he doesn't true 50/50 you.

if you call out him doing f12 f12, you can press a button and take advantage. if he calls you out pressing a button after f12 and does f12b2, he is going to do at max like 20 damage because of the scaling on lightning strings. (or he'll do like 15 into a true 50/50, which is probably the best idea there).

if you call him out on wanting to hit you on the f12b2hold on block, then he is -8. there are ways to counter poke while being safe to both EX Shocker because it is slow and EX Vicinity Blast because it is a high. he has to do the really unsafe EX db3 or EX superman to beat d4 after f12b2hold.
oh and EX shocker is punishable on block but i didn't see a full punish on it once lol

some characters can even punish f12b2hold when cornered because of the reduced relative pushback, like how Alucard punished with d4 (but he didn't do anything off of it, like cancel it into an overhead/low/unblockable special as a mixup)

all characters can do a run up after f12b2hold, confirm raiden did not press anything, and then pressure. they have, technically 14 frames before a frame perfect f12 after the -8 move, and 8+reversal startup if raiden does a reversal. if your character has a mixup, that's a decent time to do it. back throw is also good.

eventually raidens will start doing more tricks like f12b2hold lightning backdash cancel (which uses all stamina but resets positioning), f12b2hold cancel into shocker for an additional hit and still being safe, and similar things.

b2 OS is -8 on block because it's non ex shocker. now, raidens will start using different setups to trick you down the line, like b2 OS into Lightning run cancel (which is minus on block) and b2 OS ex vicinity blast (which you will probably block high because b2 is two overheads) but it's 0 on block which is tight. but it costs a meter.

some other things
dizzy did resets into restand lightning ball (db1) which
1) after a long combo, sometimes drop. in which case raiden is punishable
2) is only +9. can't press buttons if he does f12, but CAN press buttons if he does low/overhead mixup, and CAN jump out

if you jump b2 (overhead) and he does the option select correctly or not at all, and the b2 anti air HITS, the second WHIFFS and he has like 80 frames of recovery, where you can tech roll and punish.


in conclusion, it's not all 50/50s if he is forced to superman, it is not all 50/50s if he doesn't do a very specific combo that also reduces his potential damage by 10% per combo, and raiden pressure IS very strong but there are guesses you can make when he does the non 50/50 stuff that can turn momentum around that can cover multiple options.


yes, raiden is a top tier character with strong tools that are unique
but, this thread is not covering a LOT of in depth analysis of his options and risk reward analysis which is a huge part of the game period
this forum in general is full of complaining without being thorough

oh and back dash doesn't work against f12 f12 with most if not all of the cast. backdashes are not great escapes from pressure in general, you do them as a predictive footsie tool to make something whiff in neutral because they are fast but not that invincible.

 

[Bender]

Is it the 6 frame mid that is bothering people or the 9 frame gap in between strings? What if it was 7f f1 and f1,2 was -2? Or 8/-1? Or 9/0? Look at jhonny fisticuff. B1,2 is 9 frame start up mid and 0 on block. Essentially the same thing yet that's fine. I don't care about the speed of F1. I just want that pressure off of the 9 frame window to punish. I feel he needs that. He doesn't necessarily need a 6f mid. He definitely doesn't need the OS

Just make the f1 attack hit high and I think it balances Raiden out. He will lose a lot of pressure to get other characters in bad situations, since his pokes are slow, and character can now poke the f1 part of the f12 string.

Maybe lose the OS, but honestly I think this will solve a lot of issues with the character. Additionally, I might make a little less pushback if he completes the whole string.

This game is based on bullying other characters once you get a corner/ knockdown situation, so I wouldn't change the reset for Raiden. The problem with Raiden is he has a vortex, crazy mixup, great damage, amazing mid screen game, AND possibly the best block string in the game. If you take away the block string, I think he is fine. Look at what happened to poor Pig of the Hut in the corner

 

[IrishMantis]

Would more added pushback work? Enough where he still get b1 out

 

[Bender]

dvorah literally does that. no one is doing it yet, but she can. costs 1 meter to get them into the corner, but it goes into a pure 50/50 directly (unlike raiden not getting a 50/50 off superman), or 45ish damage instead. she also 50/50s on BLOCK off of one of her mid strings if she has full stamina and good execution anywhere on screen.
.

Dvorah is a good character, no doubt. Surprised more people aren't playing her.

scorpion doesn't need to carry you to the corner. all his vortex stuff works midscreen. now, his overhead is much slower than raidens, but it can come at different times in the combo.

True, but all his vortex's are risky as balls to get into. The only issue I have with the character is he wins 90% of air to air and then goes into a safe vortex. I have to stopping contesting the air lol.

quan chi is +14 on every mixup he does if he spends a bar, and some form of + if he covers it with bat. he also doesn't need the corner, since trance restand mixup can work anywhere on stage. also it can be timed to be a very hard to block overhead to low or low to overhead.
since his overhead is 15 frames, technically the only 50/50 is the first one out of trance. everything after blocked meterburn ground pound or bat is not a 50/50 because of this, but it's pretty hard to get out of still.

True, but Qan chi has no wakeup and certainly no f12 6 frame mid normal attack. Once he is in pressure, there's nothing he can do to escape. Raiden has like 5 options lol. That's the tradeoff with Quan Chi character.

if you call him out on wanting to hit you on the f12b2hold on block, then he is -8. there are ways to counter poke while being safe to both EX Shocker because it is slow and EX Vicinity Blast because it is a high. he has to do the really unsafe EX db3 or EX superman to beat d4 after f12b2hold.

There is too much pushback to get my d4 poke of fconsistently. Also, he can just backstep the attack and go into whiff pressure

The problem I have with Raiden isn't how good he is on offense. It's how many options he has on defense. You can't really pressure the character the way you can pressure Scorpion and Quanchi. He is one of the biggest bullies in the game, yet you can't seem to bully him back.

Curious to hear your response.

 

[Bender]

Would more added pushback work? Enough where he still get b1 out

Remove the pushback, but make f1 hit high. Yes, this would make allow you to poke out after his f1 strings.

 

[delbuster]

yes, raiden is the best bully in the game. he can mash a 6f mid to get out of things and be safe if it gets blocked. but he still should take pressure.

yes, high or slower f1 would be a deserved change, less pushback on lightning strings as well could make him much worse (honestly probably not that much worse, but a little trickier to play) but as he is he is too strong relatively.

but it's not unbeatable and has clear weaknesses that everyone seems to be ignoring.

 

[Bender]

yes, raiden is the best bully in the game. he can mash a 6f mid to get out of things and be safe if it gets blocked. but he still should take pressure.

yes, high or slower f1 would be a deserved change, less pushback on lightning strings as well could make him much worse (honestly probably not that much worse, but a little trickier to play) but as he is he is too strong relatively.

but it's not unbeatable and has clear weaknesses that everyone seems to be ignoring.

Other than waiting for him to make un unsafe decision, what are the weaknesses you are referring to? I guess he is not great at zoning, but can always armor in and then you're in the corner. Can definitely try to bait this, but it's tricky and I wouldn't call it a weakness.

Are there any gaps in his frequently used strings for an armor reversal?

 

[delbuster]

i already listed the basic options after blocking f12b2 and you can do a 8f move or faster if you read f12 f12 (which is a risky read, but it exists)

 

[Chaosphere]

Raiden can punish most, if not all, uppercuts with f1... You know whats the funny part? That if Raiden decides to do f12b2 after you block the 1st f12 you still get pressured cause you have to block the lightnings from b2.The entire f12b2 string is a mix up on its own.

Are you srsly bringing zoning in MKX? Really?

The reason he does not have a tp is cause if he did he would be more than broken... His projectile is above average plus he can cancel it, not even mention its ex version...

My point is, that you have to take many risks to even get Raiden off you, while he has minimal risks in general.

There are other rushdown chars in the game m8, but none of them do what Raiden can do. Thats my issue. You have a character who can take you in the corner with one move if he touches you and once there, your options are zero to none if the Raiden player knows what he is doing.

You mean if the raiden player guesses right like 4 times in a row?

 

[Bender]

i already listed the basic options after blocking f12b2 and you can do a 8f move or faster if you read f12 f12 (which is a risky read, but it exists)

I have nothing that hits quick enough with the amount of pushback you get for the f21b2, so none of these basic options work with my character. I went into practice mode to check. My best option is to run in and try to grab but that exposed me to armor reversals, uppercuts, dash backs and jump attacks.

I wouldn't call that a weakness against most of the cast.

Even trying to go into Jax's pressure string f21 is risky because of the same raidne option. Needs to be like -9 to get my d4 off, which isn't even that good of an option if it worked

 

[Metzos]

You mean if the raiden player guesses right like 4 times in a row?

I mean that Raiden has zero risk issues compared to other rushdown characters in the game.

 

[brizzle]

Making f1 nine frames and f1,2 zero on block would be so much better than making f1 high. People don't understand how bad raidens down pokes are lol. We have no fast/safe mid other than F1.

 

[brizzle]

I have nothing that hits quick enough with the amount of pushback you get for the f21b2, so none of these basic options work with my character. I went into practice mode to check. My best option is to run in and try to grab but that exposed me to armor reversals, uppercuts, dash backs and jump attacks.

I wouldn't call that a weakness against most of the cast.

Even trying to go into Jax's pressure string f21 is risky because of the same raidne option. Needs to be like -9 to get my d4 off, which isn't even that good of an option if it worked

Honest question here. Why should you get guaranteed pressure just for blocking one mid block string? You let raiden get close to you. So you should have to play his game. Yes you might have to run for a split second risking armor or nuetral jump, OR you could bait those, make raiden make a mistake, and then start your pressure. It's called a mind game

What people want is to just trade strings the whole game. "Hey I just attacked you, now it's your turn". People say there's only 50/50s but when there is another way of opening someone up (raidens pushback mind games, pressure) they want them gone

 

[Bender]

Making f1 nine frames and f1,2 zero on block would be so much better than making f1 high. People don't understand how bad raidens down pokes are lol. We have no fast/safe mid other than F1.

Better for who? Raider players or the rest of the cast? I'd prefer the 6 frame high so I can poke the shit out of Raiden. Yes I am aware his F1 basically replaces his pokes, because they are terrible. Still the rest of the character is so complete that it makes sense to me.

 

[G4S Claude VonStroke]

Holy shit and I thought I WAS A RAIDEN DOWN PLAYER in MK9. This thread just takes it to a whole new level congrats.

 

[Bender]

Honest question here. Why should you get guaranteed pressure just for blocking one mid block string? You let raiden get close to you. So you should have to play his game. Yes you might have to run for a split second risking armor or nuetral jump, but you also bait those and then start your pressure.

What people want is to just trade strings the whole. "Hey I just attacked you, now it's your turn" people say there's only 50/50s but when there is another way of opening someone up(raidens pushback mind games) they want them gone

Because it's a 6 frame mid attack. If it were 9 frames I'd have no issue with not getting guaranteed pressure. If it were a high, I'd have no problem since I could poke under the first portion of it. Most characters don't have a 6 frame attack that hits high. No one has anything close to 6 frames that hits mid (not talking about pokes of course).

 

[delbuster]

I have nothing that hits quick enough with the amount of pushback you get for the f21b2, so none of these basic options work with my character. I went into practice mode to check. My best option is to run in and try to grab but that exposed me to armor reversals, uppercuts, dash backs and jump attacks.

I wouldn't call that a weakness against most of the cast.

Even trying to go into Jax's pressure string f21 is risky because of the same raidne option. Needs to be like -9 to get my d4 off, which isn't even that good of an option if it worked

you are +8 if you block thunder strings

this is better than being +0

this is like saying attacking any character is risky in neutral cuz they can just armor it

if you are +8 and stick out a poke and raiden decides to press a button he gets hit.
if he tries to armor your poke that's still raiden trying to take away YOUR initiative, if you block EX shocker you can punish, if you crouch poked you avoided EX vicinity blast. if you blocked EX superman or EX db3 you punish.
if you think he will block just run up and do a mixup or another bait.

note; people have already mentioned it in this thread, but you can low profile his f1 despite it being a mid, from range.

Holy shit and I thought I WAS A RAIDEN DOWN PLAYER in MK9. This thread just takes it to a whole new level congrats.

char is relatively way stronger than the most of the cast. the reason is NOT because reading him doing a lightning string and blocking it and being +8 is not good enough frame advantage wise

I mean that Raiden has zero risk issues compared to other rushdown characters in the game.

dvorah is + on her low and overhead starters with run cancels. raiden is -8 on overhead with OS and -8 on low string.
[edit] dvorah is not plus on her low and overhead run cancels, but it is better than -8.

quan chi is +14 on overhead or low with a bar. quan chi is + on anything when backed with bat. scorp is slightly plus after low run cancel, he is +5 on 214 DASH cancel, +20 on 214 run cancel.

raiden is going to give up his turn when he fails a mixup, or try to reclaim his turn with an armor move. other chars (who may have worse defensive options) KEEP THEIR TURN GOING even if they fail a mixup. it balances out among these top tier (imo) characters.

 

[qspec]

The shit people try to justify in this game is amazing.

Also, for the D'Vorah conversation, I think once you figure out her tricks, she's not as hard as you would think. She's definitely, definitely good. But she's not Raiden dumb.

Talking only about SQ, but her puddle cancels are punishable by anything that moves forward or a run combo. It is also made safe by a forward empty jump... again... on reaction. Just do not block it.

Her grenade cancels are punishable on reaction with anything fast and low.

Her neutral is still stupid good, but her 50/50 set-ups aren't top 5 for sure.

 

[brizzle]

Because it's a 6 frame mid attack. If it were 9 frames I'd have no issue with not getting guaranteed pressure. If it were a high, I'd have no problem since I could poke under the first portion of it. Most characters don't have a 6 frame attack that hits high. No one has anything close to 6 frames that hits mid (not talking about pokes of course).

This Is a a good rebalance to me. What do you think. F1 is mid and is 9 frames. F1,2 is -1 on block. Raidens d1 and d3 are -3/5 instead of the hideous -9 they are now. B2 cannot be special cancelable. Balanced?

 

[ShaolinGunFu]

F12 will not be braindead once (or if) the OS bug is removed, Raiden doesnt need a patch, the entire game needs a glitch removed.

 

[NariTuba]

There are many other chars that turn their unsafe mixups into a safe one with OS. It's how the game is, start practicing them.

You dont think OSs will be patched out?