DrManhattan
Noob
I believe I made this thread yesterday but cannot find it. I am new to the site and had an opinion on the strongest element of the game. I see countless nerf/buff threads so I hope I was not single out. I was attempted to facilitate discussion:
We have a unique opportunity, as a community, to save our game. As it is still in its infancy, we all want it to grow up and be the Mortal Kombat we all want. Unfortunately, the game has swerved down a path that will surely lead to its death. There are a lot of positives about MKX and one giant negative that will potentially kill the game or bottleneck it to five, or so, viable characters. Now that I have your interest, lets give the problem a name. Loopable pressure. Essentially defined as getting your turn back and keeping until resources are gone. Nobody wants MK9 all over again.
NRS has given us one of the most visually pleasing fighters... ever. The tremendous challenge of balance a game with 29 x 3 characters (variations). Recent patches have surely moved the game in the right direction by removing unfair offensive tools and pseudo block infinites such as Raiden F1 or Kano B1. It has adjusted damage and buffed a lot of the zoning/defensive tools.
As there is some more tweaking to be done, lets highlight the biggest threat to MKXs life. This post is all about getting your turn back and keeping it. Characters such as Sub Zero or Kano or Predator? What do they get off of their turn? They do not have mb specials that are +10-20
Shinnok - bone shaper
- f4 is Raidens f1 only better. It is an advancing low that can be chained into f41d2 and cancel to mb hell sparks. brain dead hit confirm that leads to a standing reset or loopable pressure
- MB hell sparks still allows you to jail them. MB the first hit of the sparks and do a simple run cancel f4 loopable string.
- no character in MKX gets their turn back and keeps it better than shinnok. d1, d4 and f4 are incredible footsies tools that lead to safe, loopable pressure
- I recommend making MB sparks on block +4 or 5. This will increase a defensive players options and remove the brain dead loopable pressure that will kill MKX. This will also not kill imposter... that stance has the best teleport in the game and will remain so...
Jacqui - full auto
- not well known and surely not very well know to the Yomi guys. Jacqui can cancel f12 to MB uprocket and be +30ish. She gets a free run up overhead/low that leads to 44%. Mind you, there were purposeful option selects built into her b33 and b2. Only moves in the game that do not cancel on block... ever. Even if you screw up the time.
- she is able to loop f12 mb up rocket mid screen or in the corner. it is her only saving grace right now in addition to her walk speed.
- Jacui is plagued by her horrendous normals. Shinnok can do f41d2plasma and it leaves jacqui at a range were d1 and d3 whiff and will get whiffed punished by a follow up d1 or f4. Jaqui's only pokes that will erach Shinnok in this scenario are f1 and d4... both start up in more that 14 frames. So Shinnock is -3 off plasma and has a 6 frame d1 and a 7 frame f4. He has a 10 frame window to hit you before Jacqui's only pokes can reach him. Shinnok does that to ALOT OF CHARACTERS AND DOES NOT REQUIRE METER TO LOOP PEOPLE.
- I recommend Jacqui MB up rocket be +4 or 5. If jacqui gets an 8 frame d4 she will get her turn back just like shinnok and be a beast.
Quan Chi - summoner
- The most lop sided character in my life of playing video games. The best zoning I have ever seen with a sinestro like bat that can make zoning unpredictable and a MB rune that is more than +14. He has a standing reset that has more depth than sinestro or batgirl and can be made safe. BUT he has dhalsim like defense and can easily be drained of all his life. Luckily, the game has rounds...
- Do you guys realize the best quan chi's out there touch you one time and you have to block until he is out of meter. He can cancel everything into MB rune and be +14. He can loop an exotic amount of mix ups.
- I recommend making meter burn rune +4 or 5 and giving him a viable wakeup armor move.
- OR do not allow quan chi to activate a bat while an opponent is in trance and give him a viable armor wakeup move
Kung Lao -temp
- A lot of players like to build almost and entire bar and jail their opponent for days with MB hat toss. Same idea as the aforementioned characters only Kung Lao builds an incredible amount of meter.
- Kung Lao essentially has a standing reset in that he can stuff all wake ups with a meaty hat shield and normals
- I recommend making MB hat toss +4 or 5 to remove his loopable pressure/meter building. Kung Lao is amoung the top characters in the game for hit confirmable damage. He will be intact and play the same, only he will not get loopable pressure
Kitana - mournful
- loopable glaive pressure...
Pred- hunter
- trap is ~+10. its not loopable after testing. does not jail into anything that can jail back to the trap i think. make it +3-4 I agree. no room for +10 moves in this game. but hunter doesn't get shinnok meter building and pressure though.
erron black - all stances
-could have some issues. i have not fully explored yet but sand shot is +7 or so.
erron black - marksman
- extremely plus gun cancels that only allow for mashed armor moves (depending on the character), coupled with sand shot.. could have some things that i am not fully aware of yet. could be similar to jax in that his cancels do not have significant adv on block
Lui Kang - dragon fire
- recently Tom Brady made a thread explaining the near block inf he has with run cancel pressure. Like johnny cage and dvorah, it is high execution but leads to rediculous plus situations that has yet another layer of depth (see next bullet)
- lui kang can use stamina and run cancel pressure to jail you. when stamina is gone he them cancels to a mb flying kick/bicycle kick, gets stamina back and remains plus. Predator and Quan chi are literally in a block inf vs Kang and Cage with only a small window to mash out an armor move that will like get stuffed anyways
- reduce the overall frame advantage of his cancels by 3-4 frames
Johnny Cage - a list
- there are only 1 or 2 cages flying under the radar in the games infancy and hope to Martian Manhunter their way to having a top character. F3 (dizzy knee) is argueably the best footsies tool in the game when coupled with his d4 that has better recovery than most d1s. It also cannot be low profiled like jax f2. Insane. F3 three leads to jailable pressure until stamina is gone. At that time, Cage does a MB projectile and is then +4. Only a small window to mash out an armor move. Now, shinnock is one of the very few than can get a d1 out fast enough and with enough range... essentially getting his turn back until out of resources... at that time cage then returns the favor until out of resources. THIS IS WHY SHINNOCK IS TOP 3 RIGHT NOW
- See what I am getting at yet? See how the game will play at a high level as it matures?
- I recommend requiring a f3, cage kick cancel to use 50% of stamina and decrease over all frame adv of his cancels by 3-4 frames
Dvorah
- Save exact thing as Kang and Cage only she does not have a meter burn move to get her stamina back and maintains pressure. However, she converts to huge damage and corner carries.
- To save MKX, in addition to the other characters ,nerf her wasp grenage cancel advantage (on block) by 3-4 frames and reduce wasp grenade hit stun by 30 frames.
Jax
- Same as Kang Cage, Dvorah. Reduce cancel advantage of missle by 1-3 frames. make stand 1, 8 frames of startup
In conclusion:
This list encompasses the top characters in the game with a few exceptions. THis should come as no surprise. A lot of people know they are top but are not 100% sure why... I just highlighted it for you guys. Jacqui lacks normals to truly complement her rediculous advantage off f12 mb up rocket. Lui Kang lacks normals, but, if he had cage's d4 and cage's dizzy knee.. he would be top three... just like A list is right now. You have a glimpse into the future. The game will be played at a high level just like this. The best characters in the game, right now, are ones that get their turn back and can keep it until out of resources. Compare this to a Predator who only has d4 as a footsies tool (he is lucky to have it... it is awesome). He gets hit advantage on hit and is minus on when an opponent blocks... now it is the other players turn or i mash out a MB stab to check the counter poke (this is sounding more like footsies). Where as, shinnok or Cage could care less if they hit you or you block the f4 or dizzy knee respectively bc they now have their turn back and are at huge advantage until they run out of resources. Sonya has excellent 50/50s but she has to earn that positioning. Raiden has a standing reset and a great 50/50 but has bad normals and can not 'keep his turn with loopable pressure' (again sounds more like a fighting game, you block right its not your turn). Even in injustice there were heavy 50/50 vortex characters... but if you guessed right you got your turn back or got a mb b3 out and were plus (with the exception of martian manhunters orbs or sinestro with trait. The best way I can describe the top characters in MKX... injustice batman with 50/50s and jailable pressure. Can you imagine? block strings for days with actually 50/50s built in.
We need to immediately remove loopable pressure... or give it to every character in the game. If you do not... it will be mk9 or injustice all over again and your top 8 will be littered with bone shaper shinnoks, kung laos, a list cages, summoner quans, wrestler jaxs and dvorahs.
You may ask... "well what about erron black or cassie". IMO they are balanced... good but balanced. When you block right its your turn and. They have ecellent pressure but its normal fighting game pressure. The characters I mentioned have something the rest of the characters do not... loopable pressure that jails. There will always be tiers for fighting games but this type of pressure will make then S+ and out of reach for most of the cast. This changes will shake up the tiers and likely make characters like kitana, predator, sub, sonya, erron black, tanya, retile et cetera more viable.
Dictionary
Jail - when you meter burn a move and are so plus, you can follow up with a normal before they are out of hit or block stun. Example is Shinnok mb sparks (greater than +10) and his f4 comes out in ~7 frames.
loopable pressure- stings than jail into a special move that are more plus that the start up move of the string and can be repeated until all resources are gone.
standing reset- combos that juggle but end with the opponent standing and minus. this takes wakeup moves out of the game and allows you to continue pressure. batgirl and sinestro were famous for this. now you have shinnok, jax, quan chi, kung lao, tremor... among others that exploit it)
We have a unique opportunity, as a community, to save our game. As it is still in its infancy, we all want it to grow up and be the Mortal Kombat we all want. Unfortunately, the game has swerved down a path that will surely lead to its death. There are a lot of positives about MKX and one giant negative that will potentially kill the game or bottleneck it to five, or so, viable characters. Now that I have your interest, lets give the problem a name. Loopable pressure. Essentially defined as getting your turn back and keeping until resources are gone. Nobody wants MK9 all over again.
NRS has given us one of the most visually pleasing fighters... ever. The tremendous challenge of balance a game with 29 x 3 characters (variations). Recent patches have surely moved the game in the right direction by removing unfair offensive tools and pseudo block infinites such as Raiden F1 or Kano B1. It has adjusted damage and buffed a lot of the zoning/defensive tools.
As there is some more tweaking to be done, lets highlight the biggest threat to MKXs life. This post is all about getting your turn back and keeping it. Characters such as Sub Zero or Kano or Predator? What do they get off of their turn? They do not have mb specials that are +10-20
Shinnok - bone shaper
- f4 is Raidens f1 only better. It is an advancing low that can be chained into f41d2 and cancel to mb hell sparks. brain dead hit confirm that leads to a standing reset or loopable pressure
- MB hell sparks still allows you to jail them. MB the first hit of the sparks and do a simple run cancel f4 loopable string.
- no character in MKX gets their turn back and keeps it better than shinnok. d1, d4 and f4 are incredible footsies tools that lead to safe, loopable pressure
- I recommend making MB sparks on block +4 or 5. This will increase a defensive players options and remove the brain dead loopable pressure that will kill MKX. This will also not kill imposter... that stance has the best teleport in the game and will remain so...
Jacqui - full auto
- not well known and surely not very well know to the Yomi guys. Jacqui can cancel f12 to MB uprocket and be +30ish. She gets a free run up overhead/low that leads to 44%. Mind you, there were purposeful option selects built into her b33 and b2. Only moves in the game that do not cancel on block... ever. Even if you screw up the time.
- she is able to loop f12 mb up rocket mid screen or in the corner. it is her only saving grace right now in addition to her walk speed.
- Jacui is plagued by her horrendous normals. Shinnok can do f41d2plasma and it leaves jacqui at a range were d1 and d3 whiff and will get whiffed punished by a follow up d1 or f4. Jaqui's only pokes that will erach Shinnok in this scenario are f1 and d4... both start up in more that 14 frames. So Shinnock is -3 off plasma and has a 6 frame d1 and a 7 frame f4. He has a 10 frame window to hit you before Jacqui's only pokes can reach him. Shinnok does that to ALOT OF CHARACTERS AND DOES NOT REQUIRE METER TO LOOP PEOPLE.
- I recommend Jacqui MB up rocket be +4 or 5. If jacqui gets an 8 frame d4 she will get her turn back just like shinnok and be a beast.
Quan Chi - summoner
- The most lop sided character in my life of playing video games. The best zoning I have ever seen with a sinestro like bat that can make zoning unpredictable and a MB rune that is more than +14. He has a standing reset that has more depth than sinestro or batgirl and can be made safe. BUT he has dhalsim like defense and can easily be drained of all his life. Luckily, the game has rounds...
- Do you guys realize the best quan chi's out there touch you one time and you have to block until he is out of meter. He can cancel everything into MB rune and be +14. He can loop an exotic amount of mix ups.
- I recommend making meter burn rune +4 or 5 and giving him a viable wakeup armor move.
- OR do not allow quan chi to activate a bat while an opponent is in trance and give him a viable armor wakeup move
Kung Lao -temp
- A lot of players like to build almost and entire bar and jail their opponent for days with MB hat toss. Same idea as the aforementioned characters only Kung Lao builds an incredible amount of meter.
- Kung Lao essentially has a standing reset in that he can stuff all wake ups with a meaty hat shield and normals
- I recommend making MB hat toss +4 or 5 to remove his loopable pressure/meter building. Kung Lao is amoung the top characters in the game for hit confirmable damage. He will be intact and play the same, only he will not get loopable pressure
Kitana - mournful
- loopable glaive pressure...
Pred- hunter
- trap is ~+10. its not loopable after testing. does not jail into anything that can jail back to the trap i think. make it +3-4 I agree. no room for +10 moves in this game. but hunter doesn't get shinnok meter building and pressure though.
erron black - all stances
-could have some issues. i have not fully explored yet but sand shot is +7 or so.
erron black - marksman
- extremely plus gun cancels that only allow for mashed armor moves (depending on the character), coupled with sand shot.. could have some things that i am not fully aware of yet. could be similar to jax in that his cancels do not have significant adv on block
Lui Kang - dragon fire
- recently Tom Brady made a thread explaining the near block inf he has with run cancel pressure. Like johnny cage and dvorah, it is high execution but leads to rediculous plus situations that has yet another layer of depth (see next bullet)
- lui kang can use stamina and run cancel pressure to jail you. when stamina is gone he them cancels to a mb flying kick/bicycle kick, gets stamina back and remains plus. Predator and Quan chi are literally in a block inf vs Kang and Cage with only a small window to mash out an armor move that will like get stuffed anyways
- reduce the overall frame advantage of his cancels by 3-4 frames
Johnny Cage - a list
- there are only 1 or 2 cages flying under the radar in the games infancy and hope to Martian Manhunter their way to having a top character. F3 (dizzy knee) is argueably the best footsies tool in the game when coupled with his d4 that has better recovery than most d1s. It also cannot be low profiled like jax f2. Insane. F3 three leads to jailable pressure until stamina is gone. At that time, Cage does a MB projectile and is then +4. Only a small window to mash out an armor move. Now, shinnock is one of the very few than can get a d1 out fast enough and with enough range... essentially getting his turn back until out of resources... at that time cage then returns the favor until out of resources. THIS IS WHY SHINNOCK IS TOP 3 RIGHT NOW
- See what I am getting at yet? See how the game will play at a high level as it matures?
- I recommend requiring a f3, cage kick cancel to use 50% of stamina and decrease over all frame adv of his cancels by 3-4 frames
Dvorah
- Save exact thing as Kang and Cage only she does not have a meter burn move to get her stamina back and maintains pressure. However, she converts to huge damage and corner carries.
- To save MKX, in addition to the other characters ,nerf her wasp grenage cancel advantage (on block) by 3-4 frames and reduce wasp grenade hit stun by 30 frames.
Jax
- Same as Kang Cage, Dvorah. Reduce cancel advantage of missle by 1-3 frames. make stand 1, 8 frames of startup
In conclusion:
This list encompasses the top characters in the game with a few exceptions. THis should come as no surprise. A lot of people know they are top but are not 100% sure why... I just highlighted it for you guys. Jacqui lacks normals to truly complement her rediculous advantage off f12 mb up rocket. Lui Kang lacks normals, but, if he had cage's d4 and cage's dizzy knee.. he would be top three... just like A list is right now. You have a glimpse into the future. The game will be played at a high level just like this. The best characters in the game, right now, are ones that get their turn back and can keep it until out of resources. Compare this to a Predator who only has d4 as a footsies tool (he is lucky to have it... it is awesome). He gets hit advantage on hit and is minus on when an opponent blocks... now it is the other players turn or i mash out a MB stab to check the counter poke (this is sounding more like footsies). Where as, shinnok or Cage could care less if they hit you or you block the f4 or dizzy knee respectively bc they now have their turn back and are at huge advantage until they run out of resources. Sonya has excellent 50/50s but she has to earn that positioning. Raiden has a standing reset and a great 50/50 but has bad normals and can not 'keep his turn with loopable pressure' (again sounds more like a fighting game, you block right its not your turn). Even in injustice there were heavy 50/50 vortex characters... but if you guessed right you got your turn back or got a mb b3 out and were plus (with the exception of martian manhunters orbs or sinestro with trait. The best way I can describe the top characters in MKX... injustice batman with 50/50s and jailable pressure. Can you imagine? block strings for days with actually 50/50s built in.
We need to immediately remove loopable pressure... or give it to every character in the game. If you do not... it will be mk9 or injustice all over again and your top 8 will be littered with bone shaper shinnoks, kung laos, a list cages, summoner quans, wrestler jaxs and dvorahs.
You may ask... "well what about erron black or cassie". IMO they are balanced... good but balanced. When you block right its your turn and. They have ecellent pressure but its normal fighting game pressure. The characters I mentioned have something the rest of the characters do not... loopable pressure that jails. There will always be tiers for fighting games but this type of pressure will make then S+ and out of reach for most of the cast. This changes will shake up the tiers and likely make characters like kitana, predator, sub, sonya, erron black, tanya, retile et cetera more viable.
Dictionary
Jail - when you meter burn a move and are so plus, you can follow up with a normal before they are out of hit or block stun. Example is Shinnok mb sparks (greater than +10) and his f4 comes out in ~7 frames.
loopable pressure- stings than jail into a special move that are more plus that the start up move of the string and can be repeated until all resources are gone.
standing reset- combos that juggle but end with the opponent standing and minus. this takes wakeup moves out of the game and allows you to continue pressure. batgirl and sinestro were famous for this. now you have shinnok, jax, quan chi, kung lao, tremor... among others that exploit it)
