General/Other - Kotal Kahn Kotal Kahn General Discussion

[mkl]

Has anyone found a good use for EX db1's OTG? It can occasionally lead to better damage in the corner but you're going to be punished for it by most wakeups.

 

[chief713]

Which of Kotal's strings are safe or plus when canceled into air grab?

 

[Immortal]

From what i seen most Kotal players cancel b122 into air grab.

 

[Devin Thorn]

So is it smart to cancel strings into air grab even if the grab is obviously gonna wiff? Does it have good of a recovery? I'd test it but I'm at work now and curious, don't wanna wait to find out haha

 

[Immortal]

It supposedly leaves you at neutral or +1 so you get free d+1/4 check. Dunno how this works actually since according to frame data air grab has like 20 recovery frames.

 

[Devin Thorn]

This game is so janky with its frame data. Sometimes I feel it was released like 3 months to early

 

[Qwark28]

114 is the one string that is safe with air grab, it's +4 on whiff.

 

[Shade667]

Yeah I only really do it off of 1,1,4 because thats the only one I knew for certain.

 

[ChaosTheory]

I couldn't figure out what I was doing wrong earlier with Sun God. I could not get Soul Scorch to come out. Simple f,b,d motion, but I could not get the motherfucker to come out. One time I randomly got EH SS early in my trials. But that was all.

Tried with each of the charge levels. Pretty confused. Anybody know what's up?

 

[Hellbringer]

I couldn't figure out what I was doing wrong earlier with Sun God. I could not get Soul Scorch to come out. Simple f,b,d motion, but I could not get the motherfucker to come out. One time I randomly got EH SS early in my trials. But that was all.

Tried with each of the charge levels. Pretty confused. Anybody know what's up?

Its because you have full health.

 

[ChaosTheory]

Its because you have full health.

Weird. Thanks. Not that I'll even use the move. Just confused me.

 

[LeeVanDam]

It supposedly leaves you at neutral or +1 so you get free d+1/4 check. Dunno how this works actually since according to frame data air grab has like 20 recovery frames.

It's weird, but since the cancel frames on strings like 1,1,4 and attacks like standing for is super early in the move's animation... the total recovery of the air throw is less than the amount of block stun produced which made standing 4 0 on block (or 1,1,4 -1 on block) to begin with.

I'm running checks to see what other moves benefit from this, because I'm guilty of using f+1~air throw to move in a lot. I figured since it was only -6 on block to begin with whiffing the air throw would make it even safer... but I'll have better data tomorrow after I check on it. I tried comparing cancel frames of his safer moves, but they cancel at different points so it's just going to have to be trial by fire.

 

[Immortal]

It's weird, but since the cancel frames on strings like 1,1,4 and attacks like standing for is super early in the move's animation... the total recovery of the air throw is less than the amount of block stun produced which made standing 4 0 on block (or 1,1,4 -1 on block) to begin with.

I'm running checks to see what other moves benefit from this, because I'm guilty of using f+1~air throw to move in a lot. I figured since it was only -6 on block to begin with whiffing the air throw would make it even safer... but I'll have better data tomorrow after I check on it. I tried comparing cancel frames of his safer moves, but they cancel at different points so it's just going to have to be trial by fire.

The thing is we don't know how much frames move / string actually has in total nor at which point exactly canceling is done. So it's like next to impossible to determine how much exactly + he is after a string canceled into air grab. Sure we can test it with "jump test" or reversal test but that only gives us an approximate value.

Thou it's been always that way with NRS. We either didn't even had official frame data (MK9 and before) or we had incomplete / inaccurate one (IGAU / MK X). Which is a shame, really. Makes me wonder how do they adjust frames on strings / moves if they cannot even write proper frame data....

 

[Qwark28]

... What are you even talking about?

You can see how + or - someone is after a move by testing with different frame moves. 114 air throw being +4 was determined after trying to beat him out of F1 with different moves.

How + someone is after air throw is determined by the blockstun and cancel advantage a string or move has.

But I'm sure you can do their job for them and Paulo should give you access to their patches so you can fix it yourself.

 

[Immortal]

... What are you even talking about?

You can see how + or - someone is after a move by testing with different frame moves. 114 air throw being +4 was determined after trying to beat him out of F1 with different moves.

How + someone is after air throw is determined by the blockstun and cancel advantage a string or move has.

But I'm sure you can do their job for them and Paulo should give you access to their patches so you can fix it yourself.

You should read again, then maybe you will understand. Being a prick doesn't necessary mean you're right.

 

[Qwark28]

You should read again, then maybe you will understand. Being a prick doesn't necessary mean you're right.

The thing is we don't know how much frames move / string actually has in total nor at which point exactly canceling is done.

We do know that. And we do know at which point the cancel is done and the advantage it provides via ingame frame data and testing.

So it's like next to impossible to determine how much exactly + he is after a string canceled into air grab. Sure we can test it with "jump test" or reversal test but that only gives us an approximate value.

No, it's not an approximate value. Manual testing with reversals and normals proves how + or - a move is.

Thou it's been always that way with NRS. We either didn't even had official frame data (MK9 and before) or we had incomplete / inaccurate one (IGAU / MK X). Which is a shame, really. Makes me wonder how do they adjust frames on strings / moves if they cannot even write proper frame data....

99% of IGAU frame data was correct after the first few patches, we never had incomplete frame data for the 2 years following that. MKX currently only has a few moves that have either been patched in or had also other issues be listed incorrectly and those are few, with one patch being all that's required, I presume.

Looks like you didn't comprehend my post at all

 

[Immortal]

We do know that. And we do know at which point the cancel is done and the advantage it provides via ingame frame data and testing.
No, it's not an approximate value. Manual testing with reversals and normals proves how + or - a move is.

Please do enlighten me how do you EXACTLY know how much + or minus move is when we're talking about values from -4 to +4.

99% of IGAU frame data was correct after the first few patches, we never had incomplete frame data for the 2 years following that. MKX currently only has a few moves that have either been patched in or had also other issues be listed incorrectly and those are few, with one patch being all that's required, I presume.

Looks like you didn't comprehend my post at all

First of all im talking about current time, so like 2 months ingame. IGAU, 2 months ingame had several issues with frame data. Some were never fixed. MK 9 didn't even had frame data lol. MK X then is even worse then IGAU at that time. Please do write me your definition of FEW because Kenshi alone has atleast 5 moves (in all variation total) with wrong frame data. And that's just Kenshi.

Looks like you still are a prick but again it doesn't necessary make you right.

 

[Lanqu]

Calculation on 114 airgrab with the help of ingame framedata shows that its 0. So its definitely not correct cz we know its +4. I think that airgrab is not 32 frames as it is listed but 29. And 1 frame is also hidden somewhere in the startup + active + recovery math. Ive tried to do the math on Scorpions moves and found that its almost impossible to get the exact data because there is always +-1-2 frame erros with ingame framedata.

 

[Immortal]

Calculation on 114 airgrab with the help of ingame framedata shows that its 0. So its definitely not correct cz we know its +4. I think that airgrab is not 32 frames as it is listed but 29. And 1 frame is also hidden somewhere in the startup + active + recovery math. Ive tried to do the math on Scorpions moves and found that its almost impossible to get the exact data because there is always +-1-2 frame erros with ingame framedata.

Proves my point exactly, thank you.

 

[Qwark28]

Please do enlighten me how do you EXACTLY know how much + or minus move is when we're talking about values from -4 to +4.

Do you really not know how to record and test? Or at least set the CPU to do a reversal with 1/2/3/* startup frame deviation and see which moves you hit people out of?

First of all im talking about current time, so like 2 months ingame. IGAU, 2 months ingame had several issues with frame data. Some were never fixed. MK 9 didn't even had frame data lol. MK X then is even worse then IGAU at that time. Please do write me your definition of FEW because Kenshi alone has atleast 5 moves (in all variation total) with wrong frame data. And that's just Kenshi.

Looks like you still are a prick but again it doesn't necessary make you right.

If you're talking about current time, don't mention wrong frame data passive-aggressively as if you could do it better. IGAU did have issues a few months into the game just like MKX, I agreed with you on that. I also don't understand why you mention frame data when it was NRS's first comeback into a competitive fighting game scene after over 10 years of failed games, of course it's going to have issues.

I also said that 99% of frame data in IGAU was, finally, correct. And it was/is. After a few patches the exact same thing will happen to MKX.

Your original point was that you don't know how to check whether a move is + or - then blamed NRS on it. Frame data is naturally going to be incorrect in certain places, I don't see any other game offering you it though so yeah, you're welcome. Only KI had frame data and it also was massively incorrect in a lot of things.

Moving on to your main point, see the first 2 sentences of my post.

Calculation on 114 airgrab with the help of ingame framedata shows that its 0. So its definitely not correct cz we know its +4. I think that airgrab is not 32 frames as it is listed but 29. And 1 frame is also hidden somewhere in the startup + active + recovery math. Ive tried to do the math on Scorpions moves and found that its almost impossible to get the exact data because there is always +-1-2 frame erros with ingame framedata.

In my understanding, which might be wrong,

114 has 34 recovery frames and is +1 on block with 24 cancel frames

Recovery exists on block and hit, that is the blockstun. +1 on block means that after such blockstun you are +1. 24 cancel frames means you can cancel into moves with 24f startup safely.

Those 24 frames go to air throw which is 8f startup, 4 active, 20 recovery. Equals 32.

Subtracting the blockstun of 34 which leaves you at +1 from 32 leads to

34 - 32 = 2, +1 frame advantage, +1 frame to unblock = +4 on block

 

[Pnut]

Qwark both low and overhead sword are atleast -16 +/- 2. Kenshi reversal teleflurry punishes at all ranges which is 13 startup (I think?) It's somewhere in that range though. I believe oh is -16 and low is -15 but I could be off.

 

[Immortal]

Do you really not know how to record and test? Or at least set the CPU to do a reversal with 1/2/3/* startup frame deviation and see which moves you hit people out of?

Obviously i know that. Im just arguing neither of those will give you EXACT number in certain situations this will be +/- 1 /2 frames. Especially in cancel situations.

Where like you wrote above - you can be wrong. Honestly we don't know / can't be sure. That was the whole point. There is NO WAY TO KNOW EXACTLY.

@Pnut pretty close Tele Flurry has 14 frames startup.

 

[Qwark28]

Qwark both low and overhead sword are atleast -16 +/- 2. Kenshi reversal teleflurry punishes at all ranges which is 13 startup (I think?) It's somewhere in that range though. I believe oh is -16 and low is -15 but I could be off.

They're either 16 or 17, low sword is very deceptive because of the pushback which originally made me think it was -14 because of moves hitting on later active frames.

 

[Qwark28]

Obviously i know that. Im just arguing neither of those will give you EXACT number in certain situations this will be +/- 1 /2 frames. Especially in cancel situations.

Where like you wrote above - you can be wrong. Honestly we don't know / can't be sure. That was the whole point. There is NO WAY TO KNOW EXACTLY.

These are exactly the scenarios in which you find specific frame data.

I know Kotal's 114 is +5 on block against normals and +4 against specials because my 11f F1 hits Mileena out of her 8f roll.

You can apply this to every single +/- situation.

 

[LeeVanDam]

... What are you even talking about?

You can see how + or - someone is after a move by testing with different frame moves. 114 air throw being +4 was determined after trying to beat him out of F1 with different moves.

How + someone is after air throw is determined by the blockstun and cancel advantage a string or move has.

But I'm sure you can do their job for them and Paulo should give you access to their patches so you can fix it yourself.

It's cool, I plan to use the jump after block to see if there is any advantage at all... then go from there. I'll update everyone in just a bit.