General/Other - Kano Kano General Discussion Thread

[LEGI0N47]

Choke is still negative on hit, correct? If so....


BOOOOOOOOOOOO I want a top 10 Commando and I want it now!!

#verucasalt

That's exactly what I saw as well and echo'd the same thought in my living room. If I remember correctly though EX is +5 on hit. I know crazy, take it easy with that info.

 

[LEGI0N47]

Commando problems:
Low damage midscreen
Lack of mix-ups
No threatening tick throws for a character who relies on command grab damage.

I think 2F4 being an overhead would give him an interesting mix-up, 2 B3, 2 ex knife, 2 grab etc

If B312 launched high enough to get a F4xxspecial at the end midscreen he could do some damage

And of course, make one of his good strings tick.

But the cmd grab is the mix up is it not?

I have to agree with the tick statement though.

 

[IrishMantis]

yeah i totally agree. commando's midscreen meterless damage is garbage, if you want real damage you have to spend a bar and then get way too tight with your links, it's not even practical imo. and why does cyber even have the standing reset chain? he doesn't have a 50/50, so why bother? speaking of 50/50s, cutthroat has to be HOW close to actually land his safe on block overhead chain that leads to easy 40-70% damage comb... i mean, i'm sorry, i'm still getting used to this. his antiairs suck, he has to spend bar to beat scorp jump 3 unless he has the right positioning!

He kind of has a better 50/50 now, not your typical 50/50(High/low) although can be armored after hitting MB ball from whatever combo you chained it to i will then finish it with 112 where i have enough advantage for a free cmd grab or if the op tried to jump/backdash i can do f4 choke(since its safe now) to catch them but going by armored luanchers its more at my risk to try it i guess.

Normal anti airs aint the best in this game but i think Kano's b1 is one of the better ones in comparrison

 

[Error]

But the cmd grab is the mix up is it not?

I have to agree with the tick statement though.

Yeah, that yields him 16% or a weak combo. If they made him do more damage then 2F4 would be expendable.

 

[Paul the Octopus]

This kinda bugs me but I think you're all right about NRS patching. I thought Kano was about top 10-15 at the start, then other characters shot by, and now more characters shot by. I never complained about Kano because I thought he was good! All his variations were legit, he was fun, he was good. Why would I complain? I guess lots of you felt the same. Meanwhile players of other characters complained up a storm, and they've almost all been buffed as a result.

Then when they do buff Kano, it's with things that afaik nobody asked for. Safe ex up ball unless the opponent crouch blocks? I guess, but nobody needed that, and honestly I hope they revert it at some point because it's stupid for such a fast move to be safe. More damage on the second hit of ex ball? Sure, but that doesn't really change anything. Safe choke? Cool, commando gets to fish around with choke now, that's nice! But it doesn't really fix the few problems he has.

So, maybe you're right that we do have to be more vocal about Kano needing buffs. That sucks, I really don't want to play that game. But maybe you're right.

While NRS does read TYM, I think folks greatly overestimate the influence TYM whining has.

Kitana and Kenshi players whined a lot and their characters got huge buffs, but correlation doesn't imply causation. They were arguably the two worst characters in the game and may have easily gotten the same exact changes without the crying. I think they certainly deserved big changes.

Meanwhile - similar to the Kano forums, the Liu Kang forums were afflicted with the "he's fine" syndrome, with non Liu players jumping on every buff suggestion and yelling that Liu was already good. Yet, Liu still got substantial buffs (which I happen to agree with). Another example - Mileena has one of the most buffed characters so far and I have heard very little from that board.

I think Paulo/NRS does read TYM but it is like 10% of the decision making process. We'll never know for sure but I would bet that he would come up with fairly similar changes even without the TYM whining.

Perhaps I'm being naive / overly optimistic but I do believe this (at this point at least).

 

[LOCO]

What Kano needs is extractable blades and a mouth full of knives....

real talk tho, injustice and other cast in mkx have better tick throw options than kano, the tick throws aren't really good cuz u have to fully comit to it

I keep hearing the command throws are kano's mix up, THATS BULL

the choke is great, awesome indeed, all he needs in my opinion now is better tick options and yes... a damn overhead for commando, having command grabs is no excuse for not having a damn overhead, shit make it -100 on block idc as long as he has the option damnit


and I'm also really jealous of cyber having the damn reset... ya'll motherfuckaz
i actualy just really miss my homie Baraka...

 

[ETC AdmiralAugustus]

That's exactly what I saw as well and echo'd the same thought in my living room. If I remember correctly though EX is +5 on hit. I know crazy, take it easy with that info.

But why spend a bar for a measly +5 when armored command grabs, ball, and knives are much more important? I mean, I'm choking you, insulting you, and kneeing you in the face... why am I negative afterwards? Am I stopping to shave real quick after this choke? I don't know, maybe I'm whining about the wrong things.

I think he needs more tick options. In a perfect world I want to be able to tick off B1 da god, B13, 11, 32, and B3 if he's not gonna have the threat of the overhead. Am I asking for too much? Maybe, but he is a grappler.

Edit: if not more tick options, an overhead, or an easier way to get a good chunk of damage midscreen (as in a launcher). I am more in favor of more threatening tick setups, because that would make up for the lack of meterless midscreen damage.

 

[KingHippo]

I'm not going to be playing Kano anymore, but I thought I should just mention what I think the problem is, so to speak.

I think that what's happening is very clear; if the character didn't seem to be very good ala Kitana or Goro, then they were getting a lot of buffs across the board, but what we actually saw happen was that a lot of the VARIATIONS that were considered garbage got buffs. Flame Fist, before this patch, was terrible, it didn't do anything better than Dragon's Fire and its own strengths were not very evident. Now that got completely flipped on its head. Commando got a few buffs; safe choke and wakeup is really good for the character considering a big part of where he thrives is forcing a guess on the command grab EN after being relatively safe. The Black Dragon Ball I believe was meant to be a damage increase as well, since that leads to one of the only ways Commando can launch for damage. I highly disagree with Coach Steve and thought Commando was actively pretty bad, considering his very limited mid range options and opportunities for damage; these will certainly help in those areas.

I never thought Kano was bad, but the reality is someone has to be in the lower half, and when I thought of the cast, Kano showed up consistently. I don't think he's bad at all, he's just not as good as certain other characters, which is fine. Cybernetic and Cutthroat were very good, I thought, and Commando was the only one where I felt it needed some work. I still firmly believe that Kano could do fine in tournaments, you just need the right stuff.

I also think it's puzzling some of the buffs that you guys want. B1 range increase in Cutthroat? The thing leads to 60% for two bars, and is a safe hit confirm. Why on earth would you want it to have more range? "Lol everyone else does" is a terrible line of logic; if there are bad decisions with other characters than the idea is NOT to replicate those ideas. Giving Cybernetic an overhead wouldn't add anything to what CYBERNETIC does, while I can see how increasing the damage of any laser based attack and the knife throw would enhance what Cybernetic is seeingly designed to do without going off the beaten path.

I am a huge fan of the last balance patch as I feel that it finally began to give some of those really crappy variations (Ethreal, Flame Fist, Mournful, Displacer, etc.) a reason to be played, which is to make them strong. Is it too much? Maybe, but I'm willing to give it time. Also it could be worse, you could be Goro

 

[Rude]

I formally apologize for advocating the, "he's fine" narrative for Cyber Kano.

I was not correct.

 

[X-xAvOk-X]

After testing kano balls, I realize this buffs are a joke honestly (Except of choke buff). I tried to find a way to get a maximun damage with ex buff balls and now i just got 43% but guest what two bars again. : ( and wasting one bar more just to get 2% more, hmm no thanks. nobody ask for that safe wake up but you still have to spend a bar for make it safe and you get 13% when you can do bf3 ex~cancel and get 26% I don't see the benefit of doing db2 ex.

 

[Youphemism]

Commando problems:
Low damage midscreen
Lack of mix-ups
No threatening tick throws for a character who relies on command grab damage.

I think 2F4 being an overhead(inb4PaulyD) would give him an interesting mix-up, 2 B3, 2 ex knife, 2 grab etc

If B312 launched high enough to get a F4xxspecial at the end midscreen he could do some damage

And of course, make one of his good strings tick.

STOP ASKING FOR OVERHEADS JUST GIVE COMMANDO MORE TICK THROWS DAMNIT LIKE THE ONES I SUGGESTED HE WOULDN'T EVEN BE BROKEN HE'D JUST HAVE MIXUPS FFS. FUCK 2F4 FUCK YOUR OPINION FUCK KANO FUCK BUFFS FUCK VIABILITY KANO SHOULD HAVE 3 NORMALS FUCK YOU FUCK EVERYONE GODDAMNIT ALL OF YOU DIE jk we da K N I F E B O Y Z

But really 2 doesn't recover fast enough for B3 to be a threat in my opinion. It's +2 on block though so...that's a thing. If they gave him the ticks I suggested he STILL wouldn't have as many as Erron Black but he'd be more of a threat because that's where his mixups would come from. And one more thing...

(inb4PaulyD)

NEVER call me that.

 

[haketh]

I am a huge fan of the last balance patch as I feel that it finally began to give some of those really crappy variations (Ethreal, Flame Fist, Mournful, Displacer, etc.) a reason to be played, which is to make them strong. Is it too much? Maybe, but I'm willing to give it time. Also it could be worse, you could be Goro

Man don't even get me started on this though the stuff was nice

 

[LEGI0N47]

@KingHippo I personally don't want an extended range on B1 in Cutthroat. I just want it to serve it's perpose consistently. The way I look at it is that if I'm in range to land a D1, which has a pretty short range, the B1 should be able to be used as a follow up especially if they just sit and low block. Yet you have a 50/50 chance if your planned 50/50 attempt will hit or not. So in short if I've gotten in someone's face and poked them I'd like my B1 to be a follow up option. Currently it whiffs a lot, even in the corner. Just a better hitbox is all most want.

 

[Smoke_Of_Finland]

The buff on ex kano ball means that you get 11% instead of 8% if you choose to armor/trade through a projectile. It's a little more reward for the 1 bar you spend. If your opponent has no meter and they are chucking projectiles it's definitely a viable choice since you get oki. Ex upball being safe adds another layer of mind games to wake-up defence. If you have the meter and you get knocked down, what's stopping you from ex upballing? If it gets blocked you can still ex kanoball afterwards, it's the same kind of braindead mind game Sonya had in MK9 (ex kartwheel on block into ex kartwheel because why not?). Cybernetic will get the most mileage out of safe ex upball because not having meter to extend combos is not the end of the world in that variation and cyber builds meter easily. Cautious players may even try to bait you into doing ex upball by just running up at max distance then walking back to try to get you to whiff it, essentially allowing you to get up for free and resetting the situation into neutral or they may start trying to cross you over on wake-up, giving away positioning.

Choke being -4 is a huge buff for commando. I did some testing and you recover as Kano's foot touches the ground again(right time to input ex rib strike or parry). After a blocked choke it's possible to parry a reversal kanoball which connects at the 9th frame, but you can't parry an upball with the normal version. The timing to parry an 8 frame low poke with normal low kounter after a blocked choke is very strict and inconsistent, essentially your opponent has to screw up the timing which is unlikely since they can just release block and mash without timing the low poke. Against characters with no moves faster than 9 frames, kounters are definitely going to be a legit threat. Commando will build more meter and always threaten with kounters now since you can guarantee a reaction by just finishing strings into choke.

 

[Diaphone]

When only the first hit of the EX ball hits - it is still unsafe. I tried using it in tournament last night as a reversal... but it seemed most of the time I only got 1 blocked hit- then I was punished. Safe EX upball sounded good (especially for cybernetic)... but it's almost never safe.

Does anyone else share this issue?

 

[EntropicByDesign]

Just a general question,

What variation would you guys recommend for a new player picking up kano for the first time? New to fighting games, new to mkx, etc.

Learning all variations is the goal, but for a new picking up one to focus/learn with keeps it from being overwhelming.

 

[DFC]

Just a general question,

What variation would you guys recommend for a new player picking up kano for the first time? New to fighting games, new to mkx, etc.

Learning all variations is the goal, but for a new picking up one to focus/learn with keeps it from being overwhelming.

The most beginner friendly variation? I'm inclined to say Cybernetic, but I'm not an expert on this. I'm equally mediocre with all

 

[umgogo]

^^^
I would start out with Cybernetic. It has a mid-hitting projectile (the qcf+2 "spinning" knife toss), simple combos (try b+31, qcb+1, 112, hcf+3 for starters) and the most straightforward tools. The only downside is that it lacks options for circumventing the opponent's guard (no overhead or command throws).

Commando has the lowest number of strings, but it requires you to be able to do qcb, f and qcf, b command throw motions consistently, and you need to anticipate the opponent's actions to use the parries effectively.

Cutthroat gives you some alternate strings including an overhead (b+12). It also comes with a juggle combo extender (qcb+1+Block) and a damage buff special that does damage to yourself unless EX'd.

 

[DFC]

I do feel that playing Commando really helped me get better at utilizing pokes and pressure though.

 

[FlappyDaniel]

Yo anybody saying that the CT B1 doesn't need even just a tiny tiny amount more range are just bein' silly. That thing is straight ridiculous. I'm not saying it should have enough range to be close to comparable to his regular B1 even, just enough to follow up with it during pressure, especially since he retreats with the first hit a bit, it makes it really really really hard to add it in during a pressure sequence since the range is literally .05 pixels.

 

[Youphemism]

Cybernetic will get the most mileage out of safe ex upball because not having meter to extend combos is not the end of the world in that variation and cyber builds meter easily.

That's...not true at all. Cybernetic needs meter to reach mid 30s in damage which is important considering the damage output of the majority of the rest of the cast. I never use EX Up Ball and I'm still not going to use it. If I'm going to spend a bar on an armoured move to get me out of pressure I'm going to spend it on EX Kano Ball because if it hits I can cancel it and get a full conversion. Being -5 doesn't mean anything because I'm still going to get pressured after it, like hell am I going to spend another bar on EX Kano Ball after EX Up Ball. It was a useless buff, maybe they're trying to get it to be used more? I think Cutthroat would actually get more use out of it if it's even going to be used at all.

 

[FlappyDaniel]

they were mosty likely trying to help CT without helping the other variations. Like you said the other variations have much better AA options since they have B1 and EX Ball as their armor move. Prolly just trying to give CT a little bit of air space presence.

 

[Smoke_Of_Finland]

That's...not true at all. Cybernetic needs meter to reach mid 30s in damage which is important considering the damage output of the majority of the rest of the cast. I never use EX Up Ball and I'm still not going to use it. If I'm going to spend a bar on an armoured move to get me out of pressure I'm going to spend it on EX Kano Ball because if it hits I can cancel it and get a full conversion. Being -5 doesn't mean anything because I'm still going to get pressured after it, like hell am I going to spend another bar on EX Kano Ball after EX Up Ball. It was a useless buff, maybe they're trying to get it to be used more? I think Cutthroat would actually get more use out of it if it's even going to be used at all.

Using 1 bar for 6% extra dmg inside a combo in Cyber is pretty much a matter of opinion when discussing if it's worth it or not.

If you know your opponent will take the pressure from your disadvantage then why not armor them if you have the meter to spare, even if you just used ex up ball, but still have meter? Ex up ball will be a viable wake-up option now because it's safe and has a very reliable hitbox. You can never be sure if your opponent will just dash/run next to you and block right before you have to make a decision of committing to a wake-up or not.

 

[Smoke_Of_Finland]

Don't get me wrong, I am still probably not gonna use ex up ball that much, but that move being safe now makes it NOT A USELESS EX MOVE

 

[Diaphone]

Don't get me wrong, I am still probably not gonna use ex up ball that much, but that move being safe now makes it NOT A USELESS EX MOVE

Except it isn't safe... because most of the time you only get 1 hit on block and it can be punished on the way down.

It's only safe if you get both hits on block