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Breakthrough - Kano FINALLY, The Kano Community Speaks Up. Save Kano's Relevance With Needed Fixes And Reasonable Buffs

DFC

Cutthroat Truther
I agree. +5 is a humongous block frame advantage. Let us compare EX knife toss to other projectiles attacks, including ones that were buffed.

Kung Lao's EX hat spin is +27 on block.
Quan Chi's EX rune is +15 on block.
Shinnok's EX hell sparks is +24 on block.
Kitana's EX glaive is... well, the frame data is incorrect, but the move has to be at least +20 on block.

Fool.
You forgot one
Jax Normal wave blast is +8
 

OG Mannimal

OG "OG Mannimal" Mannimal
I agree. +5 is a humongous block frame advantage. Let us compare EX knife toss to other projectiles attacks, including ones that were buffed.

Kung Lao's EX hat spin is +27 on block.
Quan Chi's EX rune is +15 on block.
Shinnok's EX hell sparks is +24 on block.
Kitana's EX glaive is... well, the frame data is incorrect, but the move has to be at least +20 on block.
Jax's regular wave blast is +8 on block. (Added. Thanks @DougDFC).

Fool.
I'm not speaking comparatively.

+5 is enough to condition your opponent.

I know it's hard for you not being able to mindlessly mash a single button like you did in Injustice, so I'll let this one slide, Dave.

Fool.
 

dribirut

BLAK FELOW
I think your props fisherman pole is running out of line.

Anyway, i agree with the OP.

I'd like to see Cyber get a little more damage or pushback on knives
It Agree.. It's just annoyin how wrong you and youphmis were, yet just act like you were on board the whole time
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
Brought up the problem with ex knives loong time ago And people said I was dumb... Smh
Even though you were a Martian Manhunter player, I give you lots of props for being right about Kano. As soon as b+1 was normalized, you said Kano was low mid tier, which turned out to be true.

Fools who were wrong need to apologize in this thread. Right now.
 

dribirut

BLAK FELOW
I admitted two times that i was wrong. What do you want, a fuckin' gold star?

One was a formal apology.
Oh yea you did. You know what I apologize. its youphmism. Gets to me when bad players consistently voice their opinion like it's the law won't admit when they're wrong
 

DFC

Cutthroat Truther
So, instead of talking about Who was right/wrong way back when(Since that's 100% irrelevant anyway), lets maybe get back on track? Ex knives don't need to be +1gorillion, but they should be at least double digits in my book. I see where the people who want it comparable to lao's hat or Johnny's greenballs(and would absolutely love that kind of plus), I just think that kind of number isn't necessary.
 

RM_NINfan101

Nine Inch Nails fan from Metro Detroit, Michigan
Damn, reading this thread makes me wonder as a Shinnok player: Why the hell did we not do this before?

Like, we can totally sympathize with mids whiffing on crouching characters and shit. We even got buffs to a variation that just might now be his best but we never made a thread because we couldn't figure out what the hell Shinnok was supposed to be from the start with the exception of Impostor, and even then he was just sorta... Gimmicky and unfinished.

So, a like and kudos for good discussion and reasonable buffs and fixes.
 

dribirut

BLAK FELOW
Ex knives should be at least plus 9. Case closed.

Honestly it's simple as fuck. He just needs a better aa laser and a plus 9 minimum mb knives.. Funny thing is that won't even make him top..

I guess throw in a better b1 hitbox for those cutthroat mains.. Lol
 

A F0xy Grampa

Problem X Promotions
The parries and upball seem justified, but are you really trying to say that its a problem that you can't get B1 after an advantage low poke without running?
Thats MKX 101.

Also, LOL @ the props fishing in this thread. As if anyone cares about Kano/Kano player related activity. :DOGE
 

MsMiharo

Kuff Bano
So, instead of talking about Who was right/wrong way back when(Since that's 100% irrelevant anyway), lets maybe get back on track? Ex knives don't need to be +1gorillion, but they should be at least double digits in my book. I see where the people who want it comparable to lao's hat or Johnny's greenballs(and would absolutely love that kind of plus), I just think that kind of number isn't necessary.
The parries and upball seem justified, but are you really trying to say that its a problem that you can't get B1 after an advantage low poke without running?
Thats MKX 101.

Also, LOL @ the props fishing in this thread. As if anyone cares about Kano/Kano player related activity. :DOGE
the problem isn't the running, it's the fact that you literally have to run IN TO THEM to avoid whiffing.
 

LEGI0N47

I like to play bad characters
Excellent thread. There has even been good debate which I enjoyed reading.

I full on support the OP. Anyone that plays Kano don't kid yourself and say certain things are ok because of x or y. Crying from other area's has affected our character while we've been quiet or modest and even worse up played and been wrong. There is a reason that players with capability to place well at tourneys are dropping him left and right as a main. Its like wait...so I can play a different char with better tools and consistent pressure with more options that is also easier to use!? No contest!

I will satisfy Dave as I generally approve of his posting, and even if I don't I love the aftermath it creates among the E-warriors. Though I was mostly silent I was one of the people that didn't think the b1 nerf/frame data correction would affect him much and wasn't a big deal. Turns out that was vastly incorrect. I have been slow on the uptake of realizing how under gunned we really are.

Can people please stop using the "fine" or "solid" statement. It has spread like a disease. Especially when most of TYM uses those very terms to describe top 10 tools or downplay the best of the best options and characters in the game. Kano is no where near those things.
 
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MsMiharo

Kuff Bano
Excellent thread. There has even been good debate which I enjoyed reading.

I full on support the OP. Anyone that plays Kano don't kid yourself and say certain things are ok because of x or y. Crying from other area's has affected our character while we've been quiet or modest and even worse up played and been wrong. There is a reason that players with capability to win tourneys are dropping him left and right as a main. Its like wait...so I can play a different char with better tools and consistent pressure with more options that is also easier to use!? No contest!

I will satisfy Dave as I generally approve of his posting, and even if I don't I love the aftermath it creates among the E-warriors. Though I was mostly silent I was one of the people that didn't think the b1 nerf/frame data correction would affect him much and wasn't a big deal. Turns out that was vastly incorrect. I have been slow on the uptake of realizing how under gunned we really are.

Can people please stop using the "fine" or "solid" statement. It has spread like a disease. Especially when most of TYM uses those very terms to describe top 10 tools or downplay the best of the best options and characters in the game. Kano is no where near those things.
Kinda hard to settle for "fine" when 9/10 of the characters are "broken" using that same logic.
 

SaltShaker

In Zoning We Trust
Cancelling into EX Knives in Cutthroat and Commando makes no sense, the first knife is a high and people will always poke you out of it. Congrats, now you've wasted a bar and gotten hit. No reason for a buff like this when there's no use for it.
Always poke you out? Interesting, but very untrue. You can trap block them and then be at +10 which for Cutt/Comm, would be amazing up close. Instead in its current version sometimes you are too far for the follow up, and if you try to run cancel you can be poked out by a D1. If you use a bar of meter for pressuee, the pressure should be consistent, like pretty much every other character with that same type of tool in the game.

B1 will always be a better option than this, unless it does 32% when you EX it. B1 leads to 31% with meter. If you're at a range where up laser would hit and B1 wouldn't, that means you can trip guard with B2. Useless buff.
I somewhat agree. B1 is a great AA at the right distance and would be the best option. The reason I suggest the AA laser actually AA is because for one I assums that's what it was designed to do yet it's one of the most useless moves in the entire game, and because Upball has the priority of an ant hitting an elephant. If the Upball priority was buffed I'd be ok scrapping it. But having two AA Specials that both suck at AA can't be what was intended. Sometimes that quick reaction AA comes out, and one of these two moves should actually work consistently. Like every other character's AA Specials in the game does.


Five frames advantage on block is plenty in MKX. Unless you have no idea how to condition your opponent, this buff serves no real purpose. How advantageous do you want it to be? Shinnok EX Sparks Level?
Should at least be 8, 9, or 10 +frames. Kano can't stop you from simply blocking low in Cyber as it is. Doesn't have to be +25, but enough to trap them on block to where they either block a string or escape a grab as the only option. Kano is one of the very few in the game who suffer from this problem.

This one I am on the fence about. He already has ticks off D1, D3, and D4, which the choke buff made decent with the mixup between choke and command grab on block. But as fore more options, I just don't see how a string/normal could be chosen. B13 would be the only good choice, but it'd be pretty ridiculous.
It depends on how you define "pretty ridiculous". I think the way Erron tic throws me whenever he feels like it off of whatever he feels like is "pretty ridiculous". At first I thought it was bs and needed to be nerfed, but looking across the cast this is how MKX is played. It's played in a way where a character can either build half a bar of meter on chip or cancel at any point of the string to command grab you. Why is that tic so vastly superior to anything in Commando's toolset, let alone his other ones? In a game built like this, I see no reason why Kano shouldn't have tic throw capabilities on a couple more of his often utilized tools. It wouldn't make him OP, but simply on par with other characters in the game.


I don't think that cutthroat's B1 should be used as a 50/50 tool, but as a whiff punishing/anti air tool. It's quick, and brings you back a decent distance with a hurtbox out in front of him. Cutthroat is already good without having a far-reaching overhead.
Ok what? Not as a 50/50 tool?? I'm at a complete loss on this one. That's what it's used for, but if not, i have no idea how you are using it for AA and whiff punishing. How are you possibly whiff punishing with Cutthroat's B1 when the hitbox doesn't extend past his nose??? How are you AA'ing with it consistently??? I don't see how that's even possible and have never heard anyone say this, so if I'm missing something on what you meant fill me in. Now if you meant that is what it should be then it would still need a hitbox fix to operate as that.

I agree that he needs buffs. Just not these buffs. Even then, nothing extreme what-so-ever.
Well as you can see, outside of the fixes I only listed four buffs in the OP, and none are even extreme at all. I think the gap between him being "lower mid at best" to "possibly top 10" can be close with minor additions like these. You say yourself you think he needs buffs, but you seem reasonable enough to not throw out a bunch of overpowered bs, so what would you suggest?[/QUOTE]
 

LOCO

DADDY BARAKA
Jason has an overhead in his grappler variation but it's not a starter, it knocks down and it has 24 frame startup.
.
that's what kano needs, doesn't need a popup starter, just an overhead
Jason's overhead is fine, he is my alt btw
Jason is a prime example of why there is no excuse of Kano not having an OH

Sun god kotal's b122 last it is a overhead that is -10 and b12 will compeletly whiff on the females and low profiles eventhough thier mids not to forget about -49 or -39 recovery on whiffed command grab
he at least has one right? kano has at least... none?

I agree that he needs buffs. Just not these buffs. Even then, nothing extreme what-so-ever.
his tick options are garbage, fully committing to a throw is shit, don't walk circles around it
u have just rejected all the reasonalbe shit yet u propose nothing
 

Error

DF2+R2
I never get the fear behind giving low/mid tier characters abilities comparable to the rest of the cast. Commando Kano having good tick throws would be ridiculous? What was the point of the variation again? Cut throat overhead shouldn't have range/be used as a 50/50, because.... reasons. If it literally whiffs when touching the opponent/cornered maybe there's something wrong with it's hitbox.
 
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MsMiharo

Kuff Bano
that's what kano needs, doesn't need a popup starter, just an overhead
Jason's overhead is fine, he is my alt btw
Jason is a prime example of why there is no excuse of Kano not having an OH



he at least has one right? kano has at least... none?



his tick options are garbage, fully committing to a throw is shit, don't walk circles around it
u have just rejected all the reasonalbe shit yet u propose nothing
Kotal has a non-string overhead that gives a knockdown as well