General/Other - Erron Black Erron Black General Discussion Thread

[Lukeweizer]

I'm having trouble grasping (Outlaw) Erron Black's strategy.

I'm never quite sure what to do when I'm getting rushed down. I feel like his armored Specials don't put him in advantageous spot. Slide is unsafe on block (and seems to be a long recovery on hit, not enough time to get in with f12/3 pressure?) and Sand Grenade is a rather slow projectile.

I'm also at a loss for what to do when at fullscreen. Like I said, Sand Grenade is kinda slow and if I were to hit an EX slide they'd be back at about 3/4 screen. Starting to think I'd be more comfortable with Marksman.

Also not sure when I should be throwing out Caltrops. I know the corner is the best place, but when is the safest time/ setups for them? After a hard knockdown?

Would anyone mind sharing their gameplans with Erron Black? I've been playing Kung Jin a lot the last few weeks and really enjoyed the range on his strings and started getting comfortable with his armored wake-ups (while not safe on block, EX db3 and can lead to damage). Maybe I'm just not comfortable with Outlaw's rushdown style? Is Marksman a different enough variation to warrant trying?

 

[Groove Heaven]

I'm having trouble grasping (Outlaw) Erron Black's strategy.

I'm never quite sure what to do when I'm getting rushed down. I feel like his armored Specials don't put him in advantageous spot. Slide is unsafe on block (and seems to be a long recovery on hit, not enough time to get in with f12/3 pressure?) and Sand Grenade is a rather slow projectile.

When someone is in my face, the first thing I try is poking out with d1 or standing 2. His normals are pretty good but if you need armor he has a lot of options

EX sand toss (db4) - probably his best choice. Good hitbox, grants a full combo, not quite as punishable on block or whiff as his other options (at the high level offline you will get punished though)
EX tarkatan blade (df2) - slow but does decent damage and will catch jumps, gives you a hard knockdown
EX sand trap (dbf2) - command grab for people who are trying to read the armor and block, but will still armor through if they're trying more stuff
EX slide - worst choice to armor out of pressure. Super punishable, doesn't give you a great situation on hit, moves you far away from your opponent on whiff

I'm also at a loss for what to do when at fullscreen. Like I said, Sand Grenade is kinda slow and if I were to hit an EX slide they'd be back at about 3/4 screen. Starting to think I'd be more comfortable with Marksman.

Sand grenade really isn't that bad. It won't beat characters with good zoning tools, but it can force your opponent to jump or block low giving you the chance to make a read and respond accordingly. If they're gonna clam up and block when you roll a grenade at them, use his hella fast run to get in their face. He's not a zoner, even in Marksman tbh. His projectiles aren't supposed to keep your opponent out, they're supposed to force them to move the way you want them to move so you can get in.

Also not sure when I should be throwing out Caltrops. I know the corner is the best place, but when is the safest time/ setups for them? After a hard knockdown?

I like to mix it up to make my opponent uncomfortable. f24 is a hard knockdown string that can be special cancelled, so f24~calrops is the easiest way to get a HKD and put them over caltrops. 21122~caltrops is something to throw in there if you want more damage, especially in the corner because they can't roll away from you. In the neutral there's nothing wrong with throwing them randomly if you're not obvious about it, and I rely on this quite a bit in Marksman. You're basically drawing a line that you can run past but they can't.

Would anyone mind sharing their gameplans with Erron Black? I've been playing Kung Jin a lot the last few weeks and really enjoyed the range on his strings and started getting comfortable with his armored wake-ups (while not safe on block, EX db3 and can lead to damage). Maybe I'm just not comfortable with Outlaw's rushdown style? Is Marksman a different enough variation to warrant trying?

Marksman is maybe as good as Outlaw but tbh if you don't put a ton of time into Marksman it's hard to play and harder to win with. Outlaw is 100% my recommendation to learn the character with.
I don't have a set gameplan as I try to avoid being predicable or "flow-chart," but I guess here are the main bullet points:

-Connect d1 or d4 to make your opponent have to eat whatever you do next, which should be:
-f13~sand toss (check my video one page back on how to do option selects and make this safer) or f13~EX sand grenade. This will ensure that your opponent's instinct is to block high in these situations
-Once you have them blocking high, mix it up with 21122 (the first 2 whiffs on crouching opponents, this is why you want them standing). Use 21122 to make them afraid of the dreaded 33/33/33 tick throw
-Start doing 21122 fully or 2112~EX sand grenade if they're trying to neutral duck the command grab
-Don't forget 21122~EX sand grenade because it frame traps and puts you +7
-Get knockdowns and make them fear the f1/b3 50/50

This is a really small chunk of what he can do, but it's the bare-bones of his gameplan IMO and it should get you started.

 

[lil freshie11]

Does anyone know if marksman has any other strings/normals that are plus when canceled into gun besides neutral 4?

 

[Lukeweizer]

When someone is in my face, the first thing I try is poking out with d1 or standing 2. His normals are pretty good but if you need armor he has a lot of options

EX sand toss (db4) - probably his best choice. Good hitbox, grants a full combo, not quite as punishable on block or whiff as his other options (at the high level offline you will get punished though)
EX tarkatan blade (df2) - slow but does decent damage and will catch jumps, gives you a hard knockdown
EX sand trap (dbf2) - command grab for people who are trying to read the armor and block, but will still armor through if they're trying more stuff
EX slide - worst choice to armor out of pressure. Super punishable, doesn't give you a great situation on hit, moves you far away from your opponent on whiff



Sand grenade really isn't that bad. It won't beat characters with good zoning tools, but it can force your opponent to jump or block low giving you the chance to make a read and respond accordingly. If they're gonna clam up and block when you roll a grenade at them, use his hella fast run to get in their face. He's not a zoner, even in Marksman tbh. His projectiles aren't supposed to keep your opponent out, they're supposed to force them to move the way you want them to move so you can get in.



I like to mix it up to make my opponent uncomfortable. f24 is a hard knockdown string that can be special cancelled, so f24~calrops is the easiest way to get a HKD and put them over caltrops. 21122~caltrops is something to throw in there if you want more damage, especially in the corner because they can't roll away from you. In the neutral there's nothing wrong with throwing them randomly if you're not obvious about it, and I rely on this quite a bit in Marksman. You're basically drawing a line that you can run past but they can't.



Marksman is maybe as good as Outlaw but tbh if you don't put a ton of time into Marksman it's hard to play and harder to win with. Outlaw is 100% my recommendation to learn the character with.
I don't have a set gameplan as I try to avoid being predicable or "flow-chart," but I guess here are the main bullet points:

-Connect d1 or d4 to make your opponent have to eat whatever you do next, which should be:
-f13~sand toss (check my video one page back on how to do option selects and make this safer) or f13~EX sand grenade. This will ensure that your opponent's instinct is to block high in these situations
-Once you have them blocking high, mix it up with 21122 (the first 2 whiffs on crouching opponents, this is why you want them standing). Use 21122 to make them afraid of the dreaded 33/33/33 tick throw
-Start doing 21122 fully or 2112~EX sand grenade if they're trying to neutral duck the command grab
-Don't forget 21122~EX sand grenade because it frame traps and puts you +7
-Get knockdowns and make them fear the f1/b3 50/50

This is a really small chunk of what he can do, but it's the bare-bones of his gameplan IMO and it should get you started.

This is an amazing breakdown. Definitely puts everything into perspective and gives me a better idea of what to do. Thanks so much!

 

[lionheart21]

When someone is in my face, the first thing I try is poking out with d1 or standing 2. His normals are pretty good but if you need armor he has a lot of options

EX sand toss (db4) - probably his best choice. Good hitbox, grants a full combo, not quite as punishable on block or whiff as his other options (at the high level offline you will get punished though)
EX tarkatan blade (df2) - slow but does decent damage and will catch jumps, gives you a hard knockdown
EX sand trap (dbf2) - command grab for people who are trying to read the armor and block, but will still armor through if they're trying more stuff
EX slide - worst choice to armor out of pressure. Super punishable, doesn't give you a great situation on hit, moves you far away from your opponent on whiff



Sand grenade really isn't that bad. It won't beat characters with good zoning tools, but it can force your opponent to jump or block low giving you the chance to make a read and respond accordingly. If they're gonna clam up and block when you roll a grenade at them, use his hella fast run to get in their face. He's not a zoner, even in Marksman tbh. His projectiles aren't supposed to keep your opponent out, they're supposed to force them to move the way you want them to move so you can get in.



I like to mix it up to make my opponent uncomfortable. f24 is a hard knockdown string that can be special cancelled, so f24~calrops is the easiest way to get a HKD and put them over caltrops. 21122~caltrops is something to throw in there if you want more damage, especially in the corner because they can't roll away from you. In the neutral there's nothing wrong with throwing them randomly if you're not obvious about it, and I rely on this quite a bit in Marksman. You're basically drawing a line that you can run past but they can't.



Marksman is maybe as good as Outlaw but tbh if you don't put a ton of time into Marksman it's hard to play and harder to win with. Outlaw is 100% my recommendation to learn the character with.
I don't have a set gameplan as I try to avoid being predicable or "flow-chart," but I guess here are the main bullet points:

-Connect d1 or d4 to make your opponent have to eat whatever you do next, which should be:
-f13~sand toss (check my video one page back on how to do option selects and make this safer) or f13~EX sand grenade. This will ensure that your opponent's instinct is to block high in these situations
-Once you have them blocking high, mix it up with 21122 (the first 2 whiffs on crouching opponents, this is why you want them standing). Use 21122 to make them afraid of the dreaded 33/33/33 tick throw
-Start doing 21122 fully or 2112~EX sand grenade if they're trying to neutral duck the command grab
-Don't forget 21122~EX sand grenade because it frame traps and puts you +7
-Get knockdowns and make them fear the f1/b3 50/50

This is a really small chunk of what he can do, but it's the bare-bones of his gameplan IMO and it should get you started.

Excellent write-up.

 

[21122]

Hey guys whats good to do after 2112~EX sand?

I usually go for 21122 but most people just low hit me and if I try anything else I usually get blown up.

Right now I just do 21122/11/ or just block.

Thanks! (Outlaw variation)

 

[wsj515]

Hey guys whats good to do after 2112~EX sand?

I usually go for 21122 but most people just low hit me and if I try anything else I usually get blown up.

Right now I just do 21122/11/ or just block.

Thanks! (Outlaw variation)

A lot depends on your opponent. There's plenty you can do besides 21122 or 11, you could NJP, d1/4, crossover jip, etc etc. If you knew your opponent was going to try and blow up the high start of 21122, then you could either grab or back up and punish with f3

 

[21122]

Thanks!

Are there any Erron players who play on Ps4? Would love to have some mirror matches!

 

[The Farmer]

Thanks!

Are there any Erron players who play on Ps4? Would love to have some mirror matches!

The_Farmer_101, one of the lone Gunslinger mains, but i play all variations. Always looking for new people to play.

 

[21122]

Sent you a request!

Edit:

Hey, im still getting used to understanding how to use frame data to my advtange. Got a quick question

D1 is -6 on block

So if I do D1 on a blocked opponent should I never attempt to follow up after and just block?
And on hit it shows that its +14, can opponents still beat you out of a +14 advantage?

Like 21122 is a 11 frame startup, if im +14 does that give me +3 advantage when I try to do a 21122 on a hit D1?

Sorry if this sound dumb haha.

Thanks!

 

[Redux]

So what do you guys do vs predator up close online? I ran a set with a friend and his d? (dont have predator but it wasnt his super long d4) beat my d1 and d4 nearly the whole time. I blocked but would get grabbed(not good at tech grabbing yet) and I would try to do armored sand blast but its just hard for it to come out sometimes. I ended up just jumping backwards to take the small damage but am not sure of a solution for online.

 

[The Farmer]

Sent you a request!

Edit:

Hey, im still getting used to understanding how to use frame data to my advtange. Got a quick question

D1 is -6 on block

So if I do D1 on a blocked opponent should I never attempt to follow up after and just block?
And on hit it shows that its +14, can opponents still beat you out of a +14 advantage?

Like 21122 is a 11 frame startup, if im +14 does that give me +3 advantage when I try to do a 21122 on a hit D1?

Sorry if this sound dumb haha.

Thanks!

Here is the gist of it. If you are plus 14 that means they have to wait 14 frames till the start of their next move. For example, Jax has a 5 frame jab, if the opponent is +14 and he wants to counter with his jab he has a window of 19 frames till it confirms or hit stuns, however the opponent only needs a move of 19 frames or less to beat him. Does this help? This works vice versa. Say you are -6 on block against Jax's 5 frame jab. That means he is plus 1 on a reversal to hit you with his jab. He basically has to be frame perfect to hit you before blocking because there is only 1 frame gap between your negative frames and his start up frames. Anyone else please correct me if I'm wrong, but this is how I interpret it. If you wanted to follow up a -6 move you add the negative frames t your start up. Say you are -6 and want to follow with errons 1; starts up in 8 frames. That's a total of 14 frames, your opponent would need a move less than 14 frames to beat you.

 

[aMac2Dcool]

Hey guys, I'm a Kitana main and looking for advice on how to face outlaw EB.

I'm pretty comfortable zoning, but second I get in his pistol whip range I seem to get demolished. I get especially owned once he lands the 21122 string. It seems so safe (-1 on block?) And the mixup of canceling it into command throw, samd grenade, end string to d3/pistol whip, or do nothing seems difficult to get around.

Any tips? Thank you in advance

 

[21122]

Hey guys, I'm a Kitana main and looking for advice on how to face outlaw EB.

I'm pretty comfortable zoning, but second I get in his pistol whip range I seem to get demolished. I get especially owned once he lands the 21122 string. It seems so safe (-1 on block?) And the mixup of canceling it into command throw, samd grenade, end string to d3/pistol whip, or do nothing seems difficult to get around.

Any tips? Thank you in advance

21122 has 3 cancel points I believe

21
211
2112

You can neutral duck/jump over sand trap (tackle) or you can armour it
You can also armour the ex-sand grenade but 21122EX-sand grenade you can't

 

[HeroesNZ]

Do any Gunslinger players use standing 4 xx SOS as a pressure tool? It's pretty decent. S4 xx SOS3 can't be armoured through but if you delay it then you get to keep the pressure on since the opponent will be expecting SOS3 so you can use SOS1 into whatever.

I use it in the fight starting at 7.15.

 

[The Farmer]

Do any Gunslinger players use standing 4 xx SOS as a pressure tool? It's pretty decent. S4 xx SOS3 can't be armoured through but if you delay it then you get to keep the pressure on since the opponent will be expecting SOS3 so you can use SOS1 into whatever.

I use it in the fight starting at 7.15.

I've used F3 into sos, but I usually don't have the balls to cancel with sos1 lol. On block i usually just sos4 and spin away. Interesting use of s4. I'll try this. Looked like a neat mind game to play. I've used f24 sos, because they can't counter poke or armor on f24 sos4 unless it's a character with a long ranged armored move.

 

[Redux]

Do any Gunslinger players use standing 4 xx SOS as a pressure tool? It's pretty decent. S4 xx SOS3 can't be armoured through but if you delay it then you get to keep the pressure on since the opponent will be expecting SOS3 so you can use SOS1 into whatever.

I use it in the fight starting at 7.15.

good stuff man I loved the swag on your 1 bar combo, I usually just do the simple one into 2,4 21122 and any ender. Didn't think of 4 into sos either so I am def going to try that too. Sos1 also seemed pretty useless to me before but I can def see how it can be used if your opponent is conditioned to sos4 or 3.

gunslinger needs more love in the video thread so it'd be sick if you posted any good sets you have in the future.

 

[The Farmer]

good stuff man I loved the swag on your 1 bar combo, I usually just do the simple one into 2,4 21122 and any ender. Didn't think of 4 into sos either so I am def going to try that too. Sos1 also seemed pretty useless to me before but I can def see how it can be used if your opponent is conditioned to sos4 or 3.

gunslinger needs more love in the video thread so it'd be sick if you posted any good sets you have in the future.

I think I may do a video tonight of all the combos I use and know. I just have my ps4 and no editing equipment, so it will be pretty much me riffing in practice mode

 

[The Farmer]

good stuff man I loved the swag on your 1 bar combo, I usually just do the simple one into 2,4 21122 and any ender. Didn't think of 4 into sos either so I am def going to try that too. Sos1 also seemed pretty useless to me before but I can def see how it can be used if your opponent is conditioned to sos4 or 3.

gunslinger needs more love in the video thread so it'd be sick if you posted any good sets you have in the future.

This is me just riffing in practice mode. Maybe you can gather more ideas from this. @Redux

 

[Redux]

This is me just riffing in practice mode. Maybe you can gather more ideas from this. @Redux

idk why I never thought of canceling into sos at the final hit of 21122 when in the corner lol, that is something I really have to start doing sometimes for ex wakeup happy opponents or just for guaranteed chip on block instead of caltrops.

thanks for the small vid.

edit: after some time in practice sos3 didnt work as I pictured in my head it does seem to beat out armored slides if you time it right at full screen after the knockdown. guess I just wont risk it if they have meter

 

[The Farmer]

idk why I never thought of canceling into sos at the final hit of 21122 when in the corner lol, that is something I really have to start doing sometimes for ex wakeup happy opponents or just for guaranteed chip on block instead of caltrops.

thanks for the small vid.

edit: after some time in practice sos3 didnt work as I pictured in my head it does seem to beat out armored slides if you time it right at full screen after the knockdown. guess I just wont risk it if they have meter

Yea, certain armored attacks up close will blow you up, however someone like predator will be screwed if he wakeup armors. It's a character based thing.

 

[21122]

Alright guys, I think I had the funniest match thus far.

Dude kept trying to jump out of 21122 ex sand grenade and kept getting punished. He proceeded to call me cheap, so I sent him a message to let him know im very plus on ex sand grenade. Next match he wins and tbags me for a good 5 seconds, he quickly scrolls to quit menu but accidentally clicks rematch. Rage quits 2nd round in but not before calling me a little bitch before signing off.

Haha just wanted to share, I never laughed so hard xD

Btw anyone else pumped for Monday patch stream? Fingers crossed for gunslinger buffs and no Erron nerfs haha.

 

[The Farmer]

Alright guys, I think I had the funniest match thus far.

Dude kept trying to jump out of 21122 ex sand grenade and kept getting punished. He proceeded to call me cheap, so I sent him a message to let him know im very plus on ex sand grenade. Next match he wins and tbags me for a good 5 seconds, he quickly scrolls to quit menu but accidentally clicks rematch. Rage quits 2nd round in but not before calling me a little bitch before signing off.

Haha just wanted to share, I never laughed so hard xD

Btw anyone else pumped for Monday patch stream? Fingers crossed for gunslinger buffs and no Erron nerfs haha.

I'm patiently waiting for the Gunslinger Steroid party.

 

[21122]

I am so scared that they will do something to 21122, ex-sand and 11

If they touch 21122 its gg Erron in my books haha.

 

[DownfouralitY]

I am so scared that they will do something to 21122, ex-sand and 11

If they touch 21122 its gg Erron in my books haha.

I think Erron is gonna remain untouched besides Gunslinger buffs. He deserves it, one of the more balanced characters in the game imo. Not broken or unbeatable, but very good at the same time.