General/Other - Erron Black Erron Black General Discussion Thread

[HeroesNZ]

Meh, it's a warranted nerf - no biggie. I usually end my combos in 21122 Caltrops midscreen and I'll just start ending in F24 Caltrops more in the corner if I'm going for oki. His pressure is still as good as ever.

They could've done a lot more than that so we got off easy.

 

[wsj515]

The problem with the grab is that 21122 was a huge mixup in and of itself. 2 different gra points, which the only way to avoid was to let go of block, but if they didn't grab then you just got hit since there was no gap to armor through. If he did grab and it worked, congrats, run up and do it again. Then he could do a special like ex sand ball in it's place so if they get hit, full combo, and if they blocked, the blender continued. Also during this whole time you're building a good amount of meter. By making it negative, he's already far enough away where it won't be punishable, and we have no time to get a set up, but 2 frames doesn't mean the opponent does either. Maybe 0 would have been etter, and maybe they'll change it to that later, but I think this change is a smart way to control some of our options WITHOUT taking any away.

IDK about the sand throw nerf, it does seem pointless but the combos to it weren't optimal anyways.

The mixup in 21122, at least before the string is performed to completion, is not in what EB will cancel into, but in when he will cancel. If he cancels at any time before the final 2, a jump over punch nets you a full combo punish on both tackle and ex grenade. You are only forced to make a read between throw and grenade after that final hit due to 21122xxex grenade being a true blockstring. If you read the throw you get a full combo punish, if you read grenade you get out of pressure and EB loses a bar.

Of course, 21122 is huge, and we definitely could have gotten hit harder, but I feel that string combined with the oki from tackle and ex grenade was what set the character apart, that was his main dirt. If you compare similar characters, they all have 50/50s, but they have something else as well, be it a vortex, restand with huge advantage, setups, better frame data, etc. etc. - those characters get those extra things, the things that make them unique, while still retaining decent damage and wakeup pressure. 2/3 variations now have to sacrifice a lot of damage and corner carry in order to keep wakeup pressure, and its not like gunslinger or marksman were on the higher end of the meterless and metered damage spectrum to begin with.

At least when you guess right against 21122 you get a full combo punish. Guess right against summoner quan, and he's still +.

 

[Pakman]

So I was thinking Gunslinger could do with some minor changes/buffs:

1) going into stand off stance should build some meter (like 1/17th of a bar or whatever the standard rate is). My reasoning for this buff is that he has to commit to a follow up to actually build meter, unlike in marksman where he can cancel freely and build meter without committing to an action

On balance I don't think the fact that SOS gives him a 3 (technically 2) way guessing game is a reason to NOT grant him meter on activating SOS, especially given the high speed nature of the meta that rarely allows him to cancel out of it for safety. Once you're in SOS, you have to commit to an action by necessity because you just don't have the time to cancel out of it (which is fine, that in and of itself should be the drawback to this tool). But it should therefore build meter on activation no?

2) Make money shot an overhead - this will never happen though because Erron already has plenty of bullshit 50/50s up close.... but I can still dream dammit!

3) Reduce the recovery frame on EX Moneyshot so he can at least get idk run cancels off it. Right now, his best combo damage with this tool is b33,ex money shot which does 23% damage. Granted, that is pretty sick unbreakable damage but b33 into ex sand grenade (a universal meter option) is at present safe on block AND launches on hit - even if you were to follow that up just with sand tackle, you still end up doing more damage than ex money shot.

Yeah I know Money shot is not supposed to be a combo tool yadda yadda, but let's face it when do you ever see this tool used? To halt opponents run/jump in from mid screen? Granted it's unbreakable damage but if we are spending a bar on it (mostly for the start up) I'd like to be able to follow it up...and Erron already excels up close with easy mode overhead strings that lead into 50/50s (again, these are universal tools!) so it's not like he's afraid of his opponent's getting close to him. Hmm, perhaps that's why the tool has remained this way.

This is not to say Gunslinger's current options are all shit (they're not) or that the character is terrible (he isn't - I readily call him a scumbag character), in fact I am sure the NRS team have already considered these potential options amongst others but have refrained from implementing them for the sake of overall balance. Maybe it's just the current game meta being so rush down orientated that Gunslinger seems so idk lackluster? Oh well.

 

[NurzBenny]

Niche is how I always thought of it. Neat, cheeky, cute, novel, but not as serious as the big two.

 

[GroovyMango]

The mixup in 21122, at least before the string is performed to completion, is not in what EB will cancel into, but in when he will cancel. If he cancels at any time before the final 2, a jump over punch nets you a full combo punish on both tackle and ex grenade. You are only forced to make a read between throw and grenade after that final hit due to 21122xxex grenade being a true blockstring. If you read the throw you get a full combo punish, if you read grenade you get out of pressure and EB loses a bar.

Of course, 21122 is huge, and we definitely could have gotten hit harder, but I feel that string combined with the oki from tackle and ex grenade was what set the character apart, that was his main dirt. If you compare similar characters, they all have 50/50s, but they have something else as well, be it a vortex, restand with huge advantage, setups, better frame data, etc. etc. - those characters get those extra things, the things that make them unique, while still retaining decent damage and wakeup pressure. 2/3 variations now have to sacrifice a lot of damage and corner carry in order to keep wakeup pressure, and its not like gunslinger or marksman were on the higher end of the meterless and metered damage spectrum to begin with.

At least when you guess right against 21122 you get a full combo punish. Guess right against summoner quan, and he's still +.

So, I see what your saying, and I agree somewhat, but I still think that if THAT's all they took from him, I'm a-okay. They could've made the grab a hitgrab and remove the mixup entirely, they could've taken damage (he gets 40% meterless in the corner in marksman btw) and just made the 50/50 game so weak, but instead they just made us choose damage or oki. This change isn't that bad, just play better neutral after the grab, or continue the pressure and sacrifice the 4-6% for a combo/blockstring that will be made up for with caltrops potentially. Be greatful this was the worst nerf he got. He needed to lose something because he was WAY good, and if this is it then that's fine. Quan will get his, sub already isn't that bad to deal with if you play smart enough. Just keep playing or switch.

In terms of gunslinger buffs, He needs to something to use in combos that gives him damage and puts them away midscreen, considering he gets nothing without meter now which blows

 

[wsj515]

So, I see what your saying, and I agree somewhat, but I still think that if THAT's all they took from him, I'm a-okay. They could've made the grab a hitgrab and remove the mixup entirely, they could've taken damage (he gets 40% meterless in the corner in marksman btw) and just made the 50/50 game so weak, but instead they just made us choose damage or oki. This change isn't that bad, just play better neutral after the grab, or continue the pressure and sacrifice the 4-6% for a combo/blockstring that will be made up for with caltrops potentially. Be greatful this was the worst nerf he got. He needed to lose something because he was WAY good, and if this is it then that's fine. Quan will get his, sub already isn't that bad to deal with if you play smart enough. Just keep playing or switch.

In terms of gunslinger buffs, He needs to something to use in combos that gives him damage and puts them away midscreen, considering he gets nothing without meter now which blows

You're more than right, and my salt will pass. It just bums me out that these changes really just hurt EB's lesser used two variations, gunslinger especially, and don't really effect his most popular variation.

 

[GroovyMango]

You're more than right, and my salt will pass. It just bums me out that these changes really just hurt EB's lesser used two variations, gunslinger especially, and don't really effect his most popular variation.

I'll agree about Gunslinger. He needs buffs bad. Marksman will be fine since his neutral is the strongest tho, let outlaw have his mixup fun, it's not as safe as I am :3

 

[lionheart21]

That nerf really hurt Gunslinger the most since it was already the worst of Erron's variations. The other 2 can still bounce back without much of an issue, but Gunslinger mains have an even bigger uphill climb now.

 

[GroovyMango]

That nerf really hurt Gunslinger the most since it was already the worst of Erron's variations. The other 2 can still bounce back without much of an issue, but Gunslinger mains have an even bigger uphill climb now.

Gunslinger is easily his coolest variation, but man it's so hard to win with in it's current state. It needs a new move to end combos with, or like, money shot hard knockdown on airborne opponents, and ex juggles really well in combos and has really good scaling, but nope rip nothing.

 

[MsMiharo]

Gunslinger is easily his coolest variation, but man it's so hard to win with in it's current state. It needs a new move to end combos with, or like, money shot hard knockdown on airborne opponents, and ex juggles really well in combos and has really good scaling, but nope rip nothing.

B2 rc f24 HKD into caltrops or sos. Best I can find atm

 

[The Farmer]

Gunslinger is easily his coolest variation, but man it's so hard to win with in it's current state. It needs a new move to end combos with, or like, money shot hard knockdown on airborne opponents, and ex juggles really well in combos and has really good scaling, but nope rip nothing.

Yes it blows now that tackle is -2. A lot of set play in slinger revolved around sos post tackle. I've resorted to ending in slide but it reverses position however or f24 like mihraro alluded to allows you to jail them with sos3. Unless your opponent is wise enough has an armored move that can reach after second to last shot. So be careful.

 

[HeroesNZ]

The frame-data is wrong, Sand Trap is still around +9 on hit.

 

[SaJa]

To me Gunslinger should be a zoning variation mainly. He is the only char (with Jason) that can stop you running, which is one of the best zoning tool.

To buff this variation coins need to be overhead and the stance needs to be cancelled faster by running (that would give him good shit up close as well but nevermind xD it would be like marskman somehow) They should give him an ex stance as well. Faster stance 4, better juggle for stance 2, and safe stance 3 on block. :>

This variation is great, I love when your opponent is stuck in the corner, you are at a jump distance, with the stance, waiting him to make the first move ^^

 

[The Realyst]

I feel like Marksman has more potential than Outlaw, but I question the possibly of using Marksman to it's full potential. Only a very few will be able to. Confirming overhead/low safely with dash cancel 21122 is not easy and to do that consistently in tournament play in crunch time will be even more difficult. So though I think Marksman is better and has better potential, I think Outlaw is the more viable variation. Thoughts?

 

[lionheart21]

Marksman has additional pressure due to the gun cancels, more zoning options With Low Shot and Unload, and a launcher/combo extender with Swing Shot. However, this is also his most technical variation, so its gonna take a lot more practice to get him down. In addition, due to Sand Tackle getting nerfed, he doesn't really have as good of a combo ender as Outlaw has with Tarkatan Stab.

Outlaw has more ranged attacks, including his NJP, a better FB4, additional combos, and arguably his best combo ender now in Tarkatan Stab.

Marksman is more of a jack of all trades, whereas Outlaw is all about rushdown.

 

[Crathen]

The thing Outlaw has over Marksman is that he's not stamina dependent and it goes without saying that stamina plays a big role in this game , Marksman has damage / a projectile / safeness > Outlaw while outlaw has setups / armor / doesn't depend on stamina.

They both work but i prefer Marksman in some matchups , outlaw for other matchups.

Gunslinger is decent but really subpar compared to the other 2 variation , i think we can agree he needs something more w the stance.

 

[LucaTheRipper]

Im the only one who still end some combos with the tackle? lol i need to train and find a better option...
Thinking to change for Marksman but i hate to control stamina

 

[Vithar]

Hi guys i have a question about the ''Sword in Stone'' Brutality.
What's the timing for the U , D , U input after you stab you opponent?
I see he does 2 hits and the 3rd final is in the Head - so when should i input the U D U ?
Thans in advance!

 

[GroovyMango]

Hi guys i have a question about the ''Sword in Stone'' Brutality.
What's the timing for the U , D , U input after you stab you opponent?
I see he does 2 hits and the 3rd final is in the Head - so when should i input the U D U ?
Thans in advance!

The second you hit them with stab, just start mashing U D U D over and over and over until it happens. Just make sure you aren't hitting any diagonals.

 

[Vithar]

The second you hit them with stab, just start mashing U D U D over and over and over until it happens. Just make sure you aren't hitting any diagonals.

It works!

 

[Pakman]

OK so I just found out sand tackle can be broken out of using combo breaker...

 

[wa_black]

Hate to be that guy, but could caltrops be a little too strong? Your opponent has to take damage over time (that's cool), but then they can't run through them (that's huge), but the part that kills me is that not only does erron not take damage from his own (understandable), but he can run through them (...). Personally I think ex caltrops should stops runs. I find it just a tad too much that he can just stop your run, which is a huge part of this game. I've seen players drop combos because they'd couldn't run thanks to the caltrops. I think that stopping runs is too much for free. For meter, have at it. It would be one thing if erron was strictly zoning, but he has great offence pressure too, so it's like screw your offence, you have no choice but to take mine, or jump and get anti-aired into the same position.

 

[21122]

I can't run through the ice clone either and it freezes me when I touch it, not to mention sub zero can go through his own ice clone without any negative effect too. Oh did I mention its stops my runs too.

Salt is real for me haha xD

#LeaveErronBlackAlone >.<

He already got nerfed so many times, what more do you people want!!!!!! D:

If caltrops get nerfed, then NRS might as well just take out the gunslinger variation while there at it.

 

[wa_black]

I can't run through the ice clone either and it freezes me when I touch it, not to mention sub zero can go through his own ice clone without any negative effect too. Oh did I mention its stops my runs too.

Salt is real for me haha xD

#LeaveErronBlackAlone >.<

He already got nerfed so many times, what more do you people want!!!!!! D:

If caltrops get nerfed, then NRS might as well just take out the gunslinger variation while there at it.

shouldn't gunslinger get buffed though? ice clone makes since because it has a giant lingering hitbox that will freeze you if you touch it, but sub doesn't have great pressure or that many tools outside of a clone an overhead/low. You can't run through caltrops because NRS says so.

 

[21122]

shouldn't gunslinger get buffed though? ice clone makes since because it has a giant lingering hitbox that will freeze you if you touch it, but sub doesn't have great pressure or that many tools outside of a clone an overhead/low. You can't run through caltrops because NRS says so.

You want gunslinger buffed yet you want caltrops nerfed lol. Ice clone makes sense because it has a hitbox that will freeze you if you touch it? Uh...caltrops have a hitbox as well that will stop you from running if you touch it.........I don't know what point you are making there. Can't really comment on the pressure since I don't play Sub Zero.

Not sure what you are getting at with your last point either, yes you can't run through caltrops because NRS says so. Well duh because the NRS developers programmed the caltrops that way because thats how they intended it to work. Its the same with ice clones, the clones don't have some sort of vodoo spell that will freeze you on touch, its because like you said, NRS said so. They programmed the clones to work that way.