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General/Other - Ermac Ermac General Discussion Thread

Dope Dojo

The Bomb Diggity
Just whispera and murmurs no reason to believe they're true. But it's something I've been bracing myself for since launch.
 

14K

Noob
I cant do IASB on pad. What I typically do are a few ground pounds to get them moving forward. Then Air Disspear. When they jump, re-appear and catch them with Soul Ball.

I can do IAB by itself offine and even online off of d3's and b12 but only under optimal connections. This one was a bit rough. My biggest pet peeve is how unreliable anti air normals seem for cross up jumps online. But that's the way it is I spose.
Yeah i totally understand, i know it took me quite a while to get them perfect online =S Yeah anti airs are not really a thing to be honest, D2 honestly on some characters is just not great, Ermacs is among probably the more decent ones... iv been playin Tremor cause i do find the character fun and his D2 seems to be so much start up and i cant anti air for shz...
 

14K

Noob
Just whispera and murmurs no reason to believe they're true. But it's something I've been bracing myself for since launch.
we may hear something about DLC around Pax, as for Nerfs on Ermac i dont think it will make a diference if they scale harder after Soul Ball, the result will be the same we will still do prime damage, but i honestly dont believe he needs any ajustments at all, his other variations do need ajustments but i think they gave up on making them, for Ermac, or many other character that have poor variations... sad
 

Nausea

Soul Ascended
I've caught up on most of this thread i'm sure, (It's been a great read full of Ermac love!) and I haven't came across anyone suggesting the thought of making his Teleport cancelable?! Maybe a cancelable Tele even just in the Mystic variation which could substantially increase his pressure and remove the unsafe aspect of landing a blocked Tele to be punished. I mean if Inferno Scorp has one on all variations then why not?!

I think they pretty much nailed MoS for me. I've played Ermac since the good ol' UMK3 days (mainly because he was black and red) but I have never felt more confident & comfortable playing as any other Ermac in the series. I really do think they need to rub Spectral out and start again though. It just feels so useless and that seems to be the general consensus round here lol!

But yeah top thread! We certainly are many! <3
 
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jharris

I'm not surprised, motherfuckers
sup guys, vs'd ketchup on his stream today, you can view the match here at 2 mins in, http://www.twitch.tv/pndketchup/v/12754256

i messaged in his chat after saying gg amd he said i was just doing too much jumping and d1s and day 1 stuff. i thought i played ok but would like some more opinions on how i played and how to improve! the lag spikes were bad in that match but aside from that connection was ok. thanks to anyone who takes their time to watch!
 

Dope Dojo

The Bomb Diggity
2:34 Rather then doing NJP into F4 soul ball xx JI2 F21 D2 B12 soul ball for 33% a better combo would have been:

NJP ~ 4 xxx Soul Ball ~ JI2 ~ F21D2 ~B12 ~ F4 xxx Soul Blast for about 36% and you'd recover your souls faster for the next setup.

02:46 it's interesting he'd say something like, "this guy's playing like a ranked match player" when a lot of players immediately try to jump when placed in the corner. If anything this was just a smart read on your part. Though you could have combo-ed without spending the meter.

Round 2: You're running away from Takeda in the corner. Ermac owns Takeda in the poke department, if anything you should have kept your ground and forced him to gamble or jump.

3:06 "The first thing he does is wakeup" again I find that interesting to say when he was pushing buttons on your wake up and could have been hit with an EX teleport or Soul blast. I don't think Takeda can shred armor but I don't play the character enough to know that for certain.

3:10 you could have added a B12 loop for more damage before the F4 (nitpicking)

3:16 staggering a grab after 11 is a legitimate tactic if the opponent doesn't know how to get out of it.

3:20 you had another good read because he's still jumping on his first wake up, you just didn't convert the combo.

I don't see anything terrible here, some bad jumps by your opponent and missed conversions. I did kind of laugh at his rundown of Master of Soul Ermac players at the end of the match though. I don't get his statement on you jumping too much when he played right into your hand by jumping in the corner.

Next time rather then doing jump kick to ex soul blast. I'd recommend doing Jump kick to teleport, F4 soul ball. Traps for about 30% into a vortex option. Just my two cents.


Maybe @zaf can give better insight.
 

jharris

I'm not surprised, motherfuckers
awesome, thanks @Dope Dojo , yeah i know i coudlve got more damage in more parts. the first combo @2.34 was an input error, wanted soul blast instead of ball. also just started implementing the jump kick ex soul blast into my game, will try changing it to tele.

was just looking for some more opinions and as ketchup is a good ans respected player i wasnt sure if i am playing scrubby or he was just salty. this is my first fighting game im taking serious and appreciate the help, cheers!
 

14K

Noob
@jharris only real thing i would say is he is kinda right, im not quite sure if its the lag doing its thing or not but if be blocks a D3 from you, he could indeed punish and i really discourage pressing buttons after a blocked d3 but, honestly his theory is quite falty as well because sometimes you do have to press buttons to see if the opponent has the reactions... its complicated and some ppl will say that doing anything after a blocked poke is scurb online play, others will say otherwise, really depends to who you talk to...

Also dunno if it was just the stress of the game but you couldv made sure he didnt break that combo at the end, he had no life and things couldve turned against you really fast just cause you didnt make the combo unbreakable... just something to look for...

The rest, honestly i agree with @Dope Dojo, i mean, lag aside, which seemed to a bit of it, you did what you had to to win, and if its in the game, be it day 1 stuff or year 1 if it works dont fix it...

EDIT: second game was just a mess, from him and you... i dunno if i really need to say anything about it...
 
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jharris

I'm not surprised, motherfuckers
@14K yeah i understand that. im trying recently to use as little pokes as possible in games as its a bad habit i need to get out of. yeah that second matches connection was shokcing, unplayable. will hopefully get some better matches recorded for ppl to critique. and ive come a long way from day 1 stuff, still looking to improve tho!
 

Dope Dojo

The Bomb Diggity
Just don't push buttons after a poke is blocked. The funny thing is he mentioned d3 d3 d3 into a mixup. D3 jails and is +15 on hit with next to no recovery so if they don't block there is nothing they can do to get out of that pressure. You should be using D3 on hit (Keyword on hit) to start a mixup. D3 into IAB, F4, B3, front grab, back grab, etc.
 

jharris

I'm not surprised, motherfuckers
nice cheers for the advice. ive been playing some long good sets with omega k ive been meaning to record and upload. will remember next time we play
 

zaf

professor
Also, am I crazy or isn't Ermac's D3 supposed to have 7 frame startup not 8?
Used to be 7 when the game came out, but when the frames were updated it went to 8. It is still the same as it always has been. Almost everything had 1 frame added to it and one point or another.

@14K Just gunna tag you for this.

I can't watch the match footage right now @jharris, I'll try later today. But I can touch on the topic of D3 on block and on hit.

- Most of the time you never want to be doing multiple pokes consecutively. D1 is -10 and if you go to press anything after this is blocked, you most likely will get hit out by your opponents next string. D3 is -6 on block, so the same generally applies to this as well. If it is blocked and you press something, expect smart players to be able to hit you out of this.

There are exceptions to this such as fighting against characters, who have counter poke normals as HIGHS. Take jacqui for example. Most jacqui players will go to S1 you after they block one of your pokes. This move is a high. So if you do D3 into D3 and a jacqui player goes to S1 you, your second d3 will actually low profile their S1 and you will hit them. Same can be applied against any player you know who is counter poking back with a high normal/blockstring.

There are times when you can test your opponents reactions, by doing d3 d3 whether or not it is blocked or not. Generally it is not really advised to do this, because at the higher end of the player pool this is something that they all look out for.

You do see this a lot online only because with the lag that is created in the environment, most pokes can actually be treated as if they are 0 on block.
 

jharris

I'm not surprised, motherfuckers
cheers @zaf , i did use to use d3 way too much but when you see the footage hopefully it shows i dont abuse it. i only try to use it for counterpoking or to get out of pressure now as i did use to overuse it i will admit! appreciate everyone taking time out to offer advice, only way to improve is to highlight weaknesses and work on them and an outside perspective helps
 
Reactions: zaf

14K

Noob
@zaf @jharris yeah i couldnt agree more with Zaf, the fact that the loss of frames and reaction time is so significant online makes certain situations a possibility... take for instance Tremors D2, now, even if i know for sure a jump is coming and preemptivly startup the D2 ( note D2 for Tremor is basicly his most effecient anti air ) 80% of the times i still get hit and its not even a trade... with this being said the same concept applies to the poking situation online, if your poke is blocked salvo rare expections if you move a smart player will punish, but online, certain pokes can be mashed out for what an only be put, as Zaf said, around 0, which not only makes them safe but gives the opponent the oportunity to do another poke or a string...

Now this is what i think, and take my 2 cents about it if you want... Online is a beast of its own right, what works there does not offline, but in the care of mind if your an online warrior exclusivly then this is what you should consider:
D1 and D3 dont have the same frame data for specific reasons, online Ermacs have the braindead reasoning that D3 SEEMS to come out faster due to its animation and is a low so it must be the better poking option, this way of thinking is incorrect, be it for Ermac or any other character, both play an important role. So when you tell me "you" Counter poke with D3 ill assume "you" dont understand the character complitly ( note im saying you, i dont mean you Jharris, i mean you as a generalization of anyone who reads this).

So if lets see... if you want to counter poke you will use D1 after a blocked poke from your opponent because it comes out faster than D3, it might be a little more negative but what you are looking for is to punish his blocked poke, not to just be trading blocked pokes with your opponent... so if you just punished his blocked poke, which i might add is what should happen, and what does, offline... you have a handfull of frames at your disposel to initiate a mix up or some string that will lead to a mix up... Now this is what should happen given the correct conditions ( all of those met offline because there is no lag) But what happens online is this: D3 D3 both blocked and Braindead Ermac goes for F4 and you cant do anything about it in most cases.. see the picture?

As for testing opponents reactions, me and Zaf had a long string of posts few pages back regarding this exact issue... but ill make this a brief ex, of what i think: Offline in a tornament setting, testing opponents reactions might come at a deadly 40% price... should you do it? i dont incourage it at all without previous research, the good think about Tornaments is that most ppl that should be feared have gameplay of themselfs all over the internet, so you should do your research on them before testing any crazy ideas you might have...
Online its quite the same idea, i dont incourage it but should you try? id say yes. Even if its atleast just once, if youyr punished for it well tuff cookie brush it off and dont do it again, its not like online there is anything on the line...
 
Reactions: zaf

zaf

professor
Also, like @14K said.... You don't want to use d3 as your counter poke. You want to use d1 because it comes out faster. You want to hit the opponent when they are in their - frames so that when you hit you are now +10.
Using d3 might not be fast enough and can result in this being blocked where as d1 wouldn't be.

Now here is something else you need to consider when counterpoking
Let's say you block something that is -5. Here you don't want to d1 because it will be blocked.
Instead you want to use a string. You want to be able to make use of the negative frames your opponent is stuck in. So if you block something that is -5, this essentially makes your S2 a 4 frame move.
It's way better to do a string then do a d1/d3 which would most likely give up your turn that you just got back
You can also use something like b12 as well
 

Dope Dojo

The Bomb Diggity
D3 being +15 on hit and having next to no recovery as well as jailing the opponent makes the b3 or f4 followup legitimate imo. Only on hit though.
 

zaf

professor
D3 being +15 on hit and having next to no recovery as well as jailing the opponent makes the b3 or f4 followup legitimate imo. Only on hit though.
yea of course dude lol
any d3 on hit, whether this is pressure or a counter poke is a free 50/50 for the ghost man
 

Dope Dojo

The Bomb Diggity
I've just seen a lot of would be hate on forums and groups regarding the practice of d3 d3 into f4. On block it's just an online tactic, on hit that ish is free
 
Reactions: zaf

zaf

professor
I've just seen a lot of would be hate on forums and groups regarding the practice of d3 d3 into f4. On block it's just an online tactic, on hit that ish is free
well like i mentioned above, if someone wants counter poke back with a high normal.... Then d3 blocked into d3 is perfectly fine
 

Dope Dojo

The Bomb Diggity
I was talking to a friend of mine who was one of the testers at some point. He said Ermac was going to be getting a mix of buffs and nerfs. He didn't mention anything specific but figured given he's been right about everything else so far to take it into consideration.
 

Dope Dojo

The Bomb Diggity
I could see them increasing the cool down on soul ball. Most combos be has that start with it end with it being fully charged.
 

Dope Dojo

The Bomb Diggity
Side note, I just noticed @zaf you have a high chance of playing the bane of my existance in your pool at SJ lol. SylverRye and his Liu Kang/Jax.
 

14K

Noob
I was talking to a friend of mine who was one of the testers at some point. He said Ermac was going to be getting a mix of buffs and nerfs. He didn't mention anything specific but figured given he's been right about everything else so far to take it into consideration.
hmm... honestly i consider Ermac to be one of the most balanced characters in this game, so any changes to him could mean problems for us but since everyone is in awww about the patch here are what changes i do see them implementing:

General:
F4 being more negative - i see this happening, its already pretty - but casuals complain a lot about this move so... Casual city

Master of Souls:
Increased recovery in Soul Orbs - I do see them extending the time on the recharge, this can be fine or can be a huge nerf for us, will see...
Increased Scaling on Soulball combos - this is pretty much a given i think, considerable nerf honestly, but i think we will be ok...

Mystic:
Force Push reworked Frames - it will probably not be as negative, but i doubt they will make it as good as we want it to be
Status applied on EX force push will be removed i feel...

Spectral:
No clue i think this should just be removed from the game, its a cool design on paper, "abysmal" Ah! in the game...

Things i would like to be added for no particular reason other than i want them LOL:
I want his old fireball on Mystic variation: needs to be able to be used just like Soul ball